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(Topic ID: 272044)

Gottlieb The Games 80A No 5v and probably more problems


By honkbahh

3 months ago



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  • 70 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by honkbahh
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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There are 70 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 3 months ago

To me - this looks like the regulator is shut down.

One more measurement - measure across voltage R12.
Red lead to E5, black lead to E6.

#52 3 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

To me - this looks like the regulator is shut down.
One more measurement - measure across voltage R12.
Red lead to E5, black lead to E6.

Across R12 red to E5, black to E6: .80 DC

#53 3 months ago

0.8V / 0.33 ohms = 2.4 amps through R12.
That's a hell of a load for nothing connected.

So you have a short. The nice thing is - the regulator that you have installed now is shutting down properly and not blowing your input fuse any longer.

First make sure nothing is connected to J2 and J3.
Next, note that connector to J1 has two +5V pins connected to it. Make sure these two aren't going to a shorted pop bumper driver board or anything else.

If neither of these then your crowbar circuit has fired for some reason - either CR8 or SCR1 malfunctioned.

#54 3 months ago

If I were testing this. At this point, I would isolate SCR1.

First - make sure NO +5V devices are plugged in. Nothing to J2, Nothing to J3. Nothing to displays (note that those use +5V, too - usually through J3). Nothing to pop bumper driver boards. Unplug them all.

Then - on the top side of the board, locate SCR1 and clip his cathode connection (See drawing). Clip it in the middle so you can re-solder it. This will isolate your crowbar circuit.

Turn on and measure voltage BUT only do this after you have made sure all boards (CPU, sound, driver, displays, pop bumper boards) are disconnected from +5V.
At this point, the power supply will come up at *some* random voltage and you should be able to adjust with POT1. Note the voltage when it comes up. If less than about 5.6V and you can adjust it up then your crowbar circuit is bad. If at about 6V or more and you can turn it down then the crowbar circuit works and voltage was set too high.
If should be able set the voltage to 5V and then leave POT1 alone forever. Then solder the clipped SCR1 leads back together and try powering it up again. If it triggers again and shuts down - replace SCR1 and his diode CR8.

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#55 3 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

If I were testing this. At this point, I would isolate SCR1.
First - make sure NO +5V devices are plugged in. Nothing to J2, Nothing to J3. Nothing to displays (note that those use +5V, too - usually through J3). Nothing to pop bumper driver boards. Unplug them all.
Then - on the top side of the board, locate SCR1 and clip his cathode connection (See drawing). Clip it in the middle so you can re-solder it. This will isolate your crowbar circuit.
Turn on and measure voltage BUT only do this after you have made sure all boards (CPU, sound, driver, displays, pop bumper boards) are disconnected from +5V.
At this point, the power supply will come up at *some* random voltage and you should be able to adjust with POT1. Note the voltage when it comes up. If less than about 5.6V and you can adjust it up then your crowbar circuit is bad. If at about 6V or more and you can turn it down then the crowbar circuit works and voltage was set too high.
If should be able set the voltage to 5V and then leave POT1 alone forever. Then solder the clipped SCR1 leads back together and try powering it up again. If it triggers again and shuts down - replace SCR1 and his diode CR8.[quoted image]

Where should I measure the 5V? TP3 to one of the uncut legs of SCR1?

#57 3 months ago

First, I unplugged connectors to all boards. It was a Herculean effort, and some blood was drawn, but I won the fight. I powered the machine up and no change.

Next I cut the cathode as instructed and measured at TP4. It was at 5.04. I tried to move it up, but it maxed out at 5.6 like you mentioned it might. I then set it to 5V.

I was unable to re-solder the cathode because it was in so close to the board, so I ended up separating the board and replacing SCR1 and CR8. I put it back together, and still no 5 volt led. (Everything except J1 is still unplugged). I remeasured everything with the new parts (I did not move POT1 once TP4 read 5V):

Voltage at both screws on Q3 to ground TP3 was 12.04

IC1 measures:
Pin 1 0
2 1.81
3 1.16
4 .56
5 2.48
6 7.28
7 0
8 0
9 0
10 3.19
11 12.12
12 12.12
13 4.41
14 0

Across R12 red to E5, black to E6: 0

TP4: 5 (yay?)

#58 3 months ago

Well, at least we know the crowbar circuit also had issues.

Pin 10 provides the controlling voltage for transistor Q3. Due to how it is connected - you should see Ve (emitter voltage) plus Vbe (base to emitter voltage). That should be roughly 5V + 2V = 7V. it cannot be functioning properly when the control voltage (pin 10) is less than the output voltage.
There are other voltages that are way off as well. For example - current sensing input (pin 3) is directly connected to same place as TP4. It should also read 5V.
But you did see +5V at TP4 so check your meter ground connection and try reading these again.

#59 3 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Well, at least we know the crowbar circuit also had issues.
Pin 10 provides the controlling voltage for transistor Q3. Due to how it is connected - you should see Ve (emitter voltage) plus Vbe (base to emitter voltage). That should be roughly 5V + 2V = 7V. it cannot be functioning properly when the control voltage (pin 10) is less than the output voltage.
There are other voltages that are way off as well. For example - current sensing input (pin 3) is directly connected to same place as TP4. It should also read 5V.
But you did see +5V at TP4 so check your meter ground connection and try reading these again.

Voltage at both screws on Q3 to ground TP3 was 15.4
IC1 measures:
Pin 1 0
2 4.54
3 5
4 2.5
5 2.5
6 7.28
7 0
8 0
9 .03
10 5.89
11 15.25
12 15.25
13 7.13
14 0

Across R12 red to E5, black to E6: 0

TP4: 5

I accidentally touched two of the pins at one point, and noticed the measurements changed until I powered the machine off and on again. That must have been why the first measures were not accurate.

#60 3 months ago

Much better. Good power.
And lastly - you said something about no 5V LED. Does the LED DS2 work now?

#61 3 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Much better. Good power.
And lastly - you said something about no 5V LED. Does the LED DS2 work now?

Nope. Should I reconnect everything and see what happens?

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#62 3 months ago

Getting real close.
It appears to all be working except for the DS2 LED. Either R18 or DS2 at fault. R18 can have bad connection or maybe he is just plain bad (unusual), he's the easiest one to check first. Measure voltage on both sides of R18 (Just above SCR1). This will tell us if 5V is getting to R18 and whether R18 is open or not.

#63 3 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Getting real close.
It appears to all be working except for the DS2 LED. Either R18 or DS2 at fault. R18 can have bad connection or maybe he is just plain bad (unusual), he's the easiest one to check first. Measure voltage on both sides of R18 (Just above SCR1). This will tell us if 5V is getting to R18 and whether R18 is open or not.

Left side of R18: 5
Right side of R18: 4.97

So you think the led is bad? Is it actually needed?

Thanks!

#64 3 months ago

This shows power gets to and thru the resistor. Since the LED isn't lit - there would be very little voltage drop across the LED (we see 0.03V).
So either the LED is bad or has a bad solder joint.

#65 3 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

This shows power gets to and thru the resistor. Since the LED isn't lit - there would be very little voltage drop across the LED (we see 0.03V).
So either the LED is bad or has a bad solder joint.

I’ll reconnect everything and see what happens tonight!

#66 3 months ago
Quoted from honkbahh:

I’ll reconnect everything and see what happens tonight!

Alright, reconnected everything and fired it up. Two of the displays show something (pic). The number 2 is in the credits section, but triggering a coin manually does not change this number, and pressing start does nothing. Also, there isn’t any attract sound, and no coin door lights (don’t know if the bulbs are good, or if it’s a different issue).

I was able to do the sound test by turning on switch 1 on sound board A6, and a very pleasant tune played over and over again, like the manual said it would. Plus I checked all the fuses in the fuse box, and they’re all fine.

I checked power at the resistor at A1J1 and it read 5V.

I cannot get the self test to engage either. I believe it’s the red button in the coin door. I press it and nothing happens. I tried holding it for a bit, and pressing it, then the start button too.

I checked what I think is the slam switch, and it is closed. I’m not sure if this thread is related: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-system-80a-no-boot-displays-show-1-knocker-fires

The reset board is a mess, but I can just unplug that right?

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#67 3 months ago

Yes. Disconnect the reset board.
Slide a small flat blade screwdriver under the MPU connector at TC1 (A24-P2) and gently pry it up, one end and then the other. Try to not bend the pins.

The reset board probably isn't the problem though.
System 80A games should come on immediately with all displays and attract mode. There is no "system 80" normal 5 second delay.
I do not think that your MPU board is booting. All it needs to boot is the incoming 5VDC, which you have.

Diagnosing the cause of a non-booting System 80 MPU board is way more complex than repairing the power supply. BTW...congrats on that repair and Ed at g-p-e wins the patience award for walking you through that repair.

Better send your MPU to a pro.
If you are in the US, I'm happy to help.

--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#68 3 months ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Yes. Disconnect the reset board.
Slide a small flat blade screwdriver under the MPU connector at TC1 (A24-P2) and gently pry it up, one end and then the other. Try to not bend the pins.
The reset board probably isn't the problem though.
System 80A games should come on immediately with all displays and attract mode. There is no "system 80" normal 5 second delay.
I do not think that your MPU board is booting. All it needs to boot is the incoming 5VDC, which you have.
Diagnosing the cause of a non-booting System 80 MPU board is way more complex than repairing the power supply. BTW...congrats on that repair and Ed at g-p-e wins the patience award for walking you through that repair.
Better send your MPU to a pro.
If you are in the US, I'm happy to help.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Ed is indeed doing gods work. No doubt about it.

Is the MPU board A1? I am in California and am certainly on the road to sending it in, but I’d like to monkey with it a bit. Is there anything in particular I should check, either on A1, or the pin itself that would prevent it from booting?

#69 3 months ago

Yes, do remove the connector at TC1. For more info on the reset board -- see here:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Reset_Board
And then take a quick glance for anything obvious (e.g. loose IC, etc) and make sure batteries aren't leaking. But that's as far as I recommend going with this board.

That board can be a real tough one to diagnose and fix and real easy to bugger it up.
If you had just one or two small issues (e.g. missing segment on display or similar) then there would be things to check. But your CPU board doesn't appear to be booting at all. There could be one of a million different things that can cause this. If the quick glance at board doesn't reveal anything then I would definitely recommend sending it to Chris. Chris is a very highly regarded person for fixing these boards.

See if you can locate a static shielding bag for shipping board. Make sure it is a static shielding bag (silver or black) and not an antistatic bag. Antistatic bags won't generate static but don't protect against it, either. If you know somebody that puts computers together - he may have one. They are often used for computer boards.

While waiting on boards to be fixed - you can be working on connectors. Those Gottlieb edge connectors can be notorious for making bad connections and cause issues with switches, lamps, etc. Check each connector for bad contacts (bent, broken, corroded or just sloppy fit) and replace if necessary. The single sided (white) connectors are obsolete but the contacts can be replaced - although not real easy if you have IDC plugs as used on a lot of 80A and 80B machines. Be exceptionally gentle with the black double sided edge connectors - those connectors and their contacts are both obsolete.

See here for more info on connectors:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Connectors.2C_Connectors.2C_Connectors
Note - this mentions that the CPU may not boot based on connections. True - but that pretty much refers to incoming voltage which you have already shown to be a good connection.

Ed

#70 3 months ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Yes, do remove the connector at TC1. For more info on the reset board -- see here:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Reset_Board
And then take a quick glance for anything obvious (e.g. loose IC, etc) and make sure batteries aren't leaking. But that's as far as I recommend going with this board.
That board can be a real tough one to diagnose and fix and real easy to bugger it up.
If you had just one or two small issues (e.g. missing segment on display or similar) then there would be things to check. But your CPU board doesn't appear to be booting at all. There could be one of a million different things that can cause this. If the quick glance at board doesn't reveal anything then I would definitely recommend sending it to Chris. Chris is a very highly regarded person for fixing these boards.
See if you can locate a static shielding bag for shipping board. Make sure it is a static shielding bag (silver or black) and not an antistatic bag. Antistatic bags won't generate static but don't protect against it, either. If you know somebody that puts computers together - he may have one. They are often used for computer boards.
While waiting on boards to be fixed - you can be working on connectors. Those Gottlieb edge connectors can be notorious for making bad connections and cause issues with switches, lamps, etc. Check each connector for bad contacts (bent, broken, corroded or just sloppy fit) and replace if necessary. The single sided (white) connectors are obsolete but the contacts can be replaced - although not real easy if you have IDC plugs as used on a lot of 80A and 80B machines. Be exceptionally gentle with the black double sided edge connectors - those connectors and their contacts are both obsolete.
See here for more info on connectors:
https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Connectors.2C_Connectors.2C_Connectors
Note - this mentions that the CPU may not boot based on connections. True - but that pretty much refers to incoming voltage which you have already shown to be a good connection.
Ed

Nothing is obviously wrong. I cleaned the edge connectors, re-flowed some solder, and removed and cleaned socketed chips. No change. I'll message Chris! Thank you so much again for all your help, and I'll follow up!

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