I've checked other threads here for this problem and still can't resolve this. I have inspected the wiper disc contacts and made sure the copper jumper between lugs is intact, I checked the 1A contacts, all are clean and making and breaking.

By looking at the schematic, what electrically occurs to prevent a ball from being kicked out, when the ball count hits game over?

The ball count advances properly, and "game over" lights. However it keeps kicking out a ball.

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Any thoughts???

These pics show the Zero Position on the ball count on the Game Over position. The Red-Wh is the feed, the Red-Gr goes to the R relay, (Hold Relay). Both the R relay and the H relay, (Tilt Hold Relay), are locked in and getting very hot. They stay locked in during balls 1-5 and game over.

Do the switch contacts look to be correct?

This is an AAB game.

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I see that the "zero position" switch as shown in the open position, has no electrical difference. 30 volts is supplied on the Red-Wh. The other side of that switch is bridged over to the Red-Gr, which also has 30 volts. It appears that 30 volts is being back fed on the Red-Gr.

I'll check the R relay and O relay again for possible cross with 30 volts.

Please jump in if you see something I don't.

***Just followed the circuit and see that when the H relay closes, it provides 30 volts to the Red-Gr going to R relay as well as Red-Gr going to zero position switch. Apparently that looks to be a normal condition.

I am confused as to the 2 middle switches that have the nylon spacer though. They stay in the closed position.

The reset post on the gear only opens the contacts on the right. The zero position post on the left only opens the switch on the left. The 2 middle ones always are closed.

I don't see that OR-Y lead on the schematic. The "extra" switch on mine on the right is the add ball count. The WH lead goes to the coil, and the YEL-RD goes to "AX" relay and connects to the RED-BK at that switch.

All wires are contained in the harness. Game does not have an "S" in the serial number.

Yes. As well as "game over".

When "Game Over" is lit, the ball drains, motor spins, and ball is kicked out again. Game never ends.

Yes, it continues to score and flippers are still activated. Specifically what switch are you referring to?

Again I checked the H relay contacts and they look to be ok. As stated in post #4, both "H" and "R" stay locked in and get very hot. When I manually release "H", it does turn off the power to the scoring and flippers and also lights "Tilt". "R" at this point still stays locked in.

Back to the ball count unit. This pic shows it in game over status.

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These video clips show the ball count in reset mode. Then tapping the trough switch to decrease the ball count from 5 to game over.
The second video shows it resetting.

This is with the game set to 5 ball play. The weird thing about the 3 ball setting is that when the disc is first advanced, it only advances to ball 4, not ball 3.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/151944058@N08/m966zY

By looking at the disc and wiper, the wiper contact at the top should be positioned on which rivet at reset?

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The stepper has only 6 possible step positions due to the 2 posts attached to the gear. Therefore it cannot reset past the position in this picture without contacting the 6 rivets at the top to the right of the disc. Those are ball 5 thru 1, and game over.

OK, I just did what you recommended. Here is the outcome.
https://www.flickr.com/gp/151944058@N08/46jRrL

Here are the contacts listed for the disc. As stated, the 2 bottom right must be bridged to release the AX hold relay and stop the score motor from spinning. Top contacts are for lamps in light box.

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Here it is.

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I checked the M/B on "R". Those contacts are making proper contact. This is what I have found thus far.

M/B at "R" is closed at power off making RD-WH/BK-GR.

During game play, "R" remains locked in and M/B is now BK-GR/RD-GR.

I traced that RD-GR from "R" to "H", and is soldered to another RD-GR that runs back to the zero position.

The RD-GR contacts at "H" make contact with RD-WH power lead.

When manually forcing "H" to open, no more balls are kicked, game remains in game over, "Tilt" lights on light box, and play field illumination goes off.

I am concerned that "R" and "H" remain locked in. The coils are cooking.

So am I correct in thinking the problem lies with "H" because it remains locked in providing constant power thru the RD-GR to the zero position?

"AX" operates correctly.

OK, that's fine. I appreciate the effort.
In addition to the switch, that white wire runs to the stepper reset coil, and the white/red runs to the "AX" relay.

Interestingly, I can start a game, disconnect the jones plug under the play field that runs to the coin door, tap the ball drain contact and watch the ball in play lights count down to 1, then "game over". And then the ball kicker does not kick. (also "Tilt" lights as well), but that is the only time I have seen the game stop kicking balls.

I've looked at the M/B switches on "H", "R", and "AX", and all look good.

May have to gas up the wood chipper.

Look at this segment of the print. It shows from "AX" a Yel-Red running to the coil on the "ADD Ball Count". This Yel-Red is actually attached to the switch on the right with the white wire running back to the coil.
Could this switch have been added, and for what purpose? I don't see the harm in removing it and soldering the Yel-Red directly to the coil as the print shows.

Your thoughts?

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Just removed the extra switch, re-assembled, adjusted contacts. No change. The 2 middle contacts that were remaining closed, now open upon reset.

I removed the lower board today and carefully went through each relay and inspected the harness. No cut wires or after market jumper wires. I checked the function of each relay by removing it and tightening the stack screws, cleaning contacts, gap when needed, and all appear to be ok.
I then re-installed it and fired it up. No change in issue with the game never ending. In addition, as stated earlier, when set to 3 ball play, the ball count stepper stops at ball 4.
I really have to believe at this point that possibly the stepper was replaced, maybe with an incorrect version. I don't see other options for this problem other than the stepper. I could be wrong...

I don't have a picture but drew out a detailed drawing of the contacts.

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Different style contact plates?? Now I see what was done. This may confirm what I was told by others that Del Signore liked to customize his games. Steve Young also told me that these titles were sometimes converted to novelty games.

I'm not sure what the attempt here was. I'll remove the strap and see how things change.

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Update. I removed the strap and set the game to 3 ball and the stepper now correctly starts on ball 3. (Previously would start on ball 4) Also steps correctly when set to 5 ball. However, still the game never ends in AAB or Novelty.

I'll keep digging...

Yes, it steps down properly for both 3 ball and 5 ball play now. And yes it continues scoring and kicking balls out when it is in "game over" status.

I haven't looked on the back of the "game advance unit" disc, for another possible "enhancement". But worth a look at this point.

Never ending game resolved. The stray power feed was found at the "R" relay. Game plays 100% now.

The mod that was done appears to have been intended to make a "3 ball" game into a "4 ball" game. Who knows what the #@%? reason was for that.

I want to thank all of the members who took the time to offer their assistance with this "head scratcher". Chasing an electrical fault is one thing, but when there are modifications made that are unseen, it takes a turn down the road of frustration.

Free beer for all!

Yes, it appeared to be opening and closing properly, but upon closer inspection, it was bridging the voltage and not opening fully.

Unfortunately, I'm back at this machine. It has sat since my last post and notice that power still exists to the play field and flippers in "Game Over" status.

What I have found is on the R-GR at the ball count stack switch, has a constant 30 volts. That conductor traces back to the "H" relay, (Tilt Hold). That switch contacts the RD-WH which is the power and the relay remains energized, allowing voltage to flow to the R-GR.

The 6th position switch is open, (Game Over), the R-GR is disconnected at the ball count switch, and the machine still scores and flippers operate.

Looking for .... ?

If "H" is meant to stay energized in "Game Over" status, then the 30 volts to the R-GR going to the ball count switch is a normal condition.

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