Gottlieb Team One AX Relay Not Releasing

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By Playdium

2 months ago


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  • Started 2 months ago
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  • Latest reply 2 months ago by Playdium

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IMG_8233 (resized).jpg
IMG_8237 (resized).jpg
Team One Subtract Light Box (resized).jpg
Team One Light Box Advance (resized).jpg
IMG_7837 (resized).jpg
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#1 85 days ago

I have several ongoing issues with this machine, but will start a thread on this issue first. When starting the game, the AX hold coil will not release, thus causing the score motor to continually run. I can then manually release it to stop the score motor. In addition, it appears that it is not resetting or advancing the Ball Count Unit, or the Lightbox Advance Unit.

I checked the coil and see resistance, so I know it's good.

#2 85 days ago

are the score reels resetting?

#3 85 days ago

Yes the score reels do reset, and when they do the knocker is kicking several times. However the 2 steppers in the light box are not resetting, or advancing for that matter.

#4 85 days ago

So the AX relay is made up of two relays. There is a lock relay that energizes and releases the main relay. Does the lock relay energize? Make sure that happens first. If it does energize but doesn't release the AX relay, one or both of the relays may be out of adjustment. There are screws to loosen the relays so they can be moved. Be forewarned, these relays are an absolute PITA to get just right. After several days when you get it working. Never, ever touch them again. Seriously.

#5 85 days ago

I would have to look at it again, but the main relay energizes to reset the score reels and the score motor spins. When this occurs, it goes into the lock position.The locking relay does not release, and the score motor will continually spin. So I'm thinking the locking relay is not being powered.

#6 85 days ago

Check the runout switches on the score units. If they don't all close and make good contact when the score units are at zero, you will get the problem you describe.

Besides the score unit runout switches, the AX release coil is also usually enabled by a switch that pulses closed at the motor 2B position (end of the score motor cycle), so you'll want to check that, too.

- TimMe

#7 83 days ago

I checked the 2B switches on the score motor and they look good. I checked the 0 position score reel switches and they all make contact as well as the EOS switch simultaneously. However the 10,000 score reel has 2 contacts at the base which stay open and only close when the unit is advanced. When I advance it, the knocker kicks at each increment. This also occurs when the reel resets at start up. So AX hold, still does not release and score motor spins. I have to manually reset AX to stop the score motor.

I notice that the ball count unit does advance and reset upon game start up. However the light box advance unit does not reset.

The game also never ends. With game over lit, it will continuously kick out a ball and play field will score points.

Advice?

#8 83 days ago

Do you have a schematic? Can you post a snippet showing the circuit for the AX release coil?

Thanks - TimMe

#9 83 days ago

Here are two snippet's of the AX release and the knocker schematic.

IMG_7831 copy (resized).jpg

IMG_7832 copy (resized).jpg

#10 83 days ago

Going by memory - I think the AX reset relay goes through the light box advance unit or number of balls to play unit. If they're not at zero, the motor won't stop. I had a similar problem with mine. I'll have to see if I can find some notes to refresh my memory.

#11 83 days ago

From the schematic, it's clear that the lightbox advance unit must step down to zero before the AX release relay coil will energize. You need to figure out why the lightbox advance unit is not resetting.

You did not include a schematic snippet showing the circuit for the subtract coil of the lightbox advance unit, so I don't have any specific suggestions on what you should be looking at for that problem.

- TimMe

#12 83 days ago

Here is the "Subtract Lightbox Advance Unit" snippet. By manually resetting the Lightbox Advance Unit, it does not release the AX hold relay.

IMG_7833 copy (resized).jpg

#13 82 days ago

Additional follow up, here is a picture of the AX hold relay connection. The OR-R-Y runs back to the Ball Count Unit and is terminated at the bottom, second from the right. When I measure the voltage at this position, I am only seeing 6 volts.

In addition, I'm not sure if this is related but at start up the "S" start relay, "H" tilt relay, and "R" hold relay all energize, then "S" releases. The other 2 remain energized and the "R" hold relay is getting very hot.

IMG_7835 (resized).jpg

IMG_7837 (resized).jpg

#14 82 days ago

Do you have the adjustment plugs set for add-a-ball, or novelty play?

Also, have you confirmed that both adjustment plugs are set to the same position? I believe there is an adjustment plug in the head, and another one under the playfield.

- TimMe

#15 82 days ago

It's in novelty. The plug is located in the head. None under play field.

#16 82 days ago

OK, thanks. I'm going to experiment with my Team One tomorrow and see what the reset sequence looks like for the machine when it's in novelty mode. I'll report back what I find out.

- TimMe

#17 75 days ago

Any thoughts?

#18 75 days ago

OK, I checked my machine in novelty mode. When you start a new game, The AX relay latches. The score motor runs, and both the lightbox advance unit and the ball count unit reset coils start pulsing. This pulsing continues until both units are reset (stepped down) all the way to their zero positions.

There is a switch stack on the back side of the lightbox advance unit. When the unit is reset to the zero position, a post on the toothed gear pushes on this switch stack. The switch closest to the post is closed when the post pushes against it, completing the circuit to release the AX relay.

The double-wiper on the ball count unit disc bridges the rivets located at the zero position of the unit. These two rivets, when bridged, also complete the circuit to release the AX relay.

So, both the switch on the lightbox advance unit and the rivets on the ball count unit must be closed in order for the AX relay to release.

- TimMe

1 week later
#19 68 days ago

Tim,

Great info there. However, I'm not getting any power to the Light Box Advance unit. Neither coil fires. I've tried manually advancing the unit and forcing into the zero position, however AX remains latched. The obvious problem now is why no power? I've attached both the Advance and Subtract portion of the schematic for assistance.

Thanks

Team One Light Box Advance (resized).jpg

Team One Subtract Light Box (resized).jpg

#20 68 days ago

The pulses that energize the subtract coil of the lightbox advance unit during game reset are generated by a motor 1A switch. Those pulses also must go through a make-break switch on the AX relay, and the make-break zero-position switch on the lightbox advance unit.

Assuming you've checked the subtract coil itself and confirmed that it is good, I would check those switches and make sure the contacts are clean, they are properly adjusted, and there are no detached wires at the switch solder lugs.

- TimMe

#21 68 days ago

The circuit for the pulses from 1A to AX are shown to be on the BLK-RD conductor. Before the "lightbox advance unit" coil shown in the schematic, there is an arrow looping an AX open switch to a closed switch, (BL-YEL) coming from "Play Adj".

What does the arrow represent?

#22 67 days ago

That's a make-break switch on the AX relay. Every switch on the schematic that shows an N.O. and an N.C .switch connected by a double-arrow is a make-break switch.

A make-break switch is a 3-blade switch with a center long blade and two short blades on either side of it. The long blade will be NC to one short blade and NO to the other short blade. When the switch is actuated, the long blade transfers so that the states of the two short blades are reversed - the NC short blade is open, and the NO short blade is closed.

On the schematic, when you see the double-arrow, one side of each individual switch will always be shown wired together. That is the long center blade.

Virtually every make-break switch on a game made after 1959 must be adjusted so that the long center blade contact does NOT touch both short blade contacts at the same time as it transfers from one short blade to the other. This type of adjustment is known as "break before make."

- TimMe

#23 67 days ago

AX reset solved. The disc on the ball count was not bridging the 2 contacts for the zero position. Shown in this photo, the disc is not properly aligned.

IMG_8237 (resized).jpg

#24 67 days ago

Also I think I would like to replace the switch contacts. This is the ball count unit switch stack. Should there be another nylon spacer?

IMG_8233 (resized).jpg

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