Springfield, MA
Looks good. Making solid contact?
Now try switching over to 5 ball.
(Topic ID: 211296)
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Gottlieb, 1976
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Solid contact is being made. No change when set to 5 ball. I'm not sure if I mentioned but both 1P and 4P lights are lit in the back box when it is trying to reset after a game is over.
Mmm, don't worry about the lights. Alright, check the make/break on "R" - the hold relay. What's the story on the relays, are they labeled?
I really think it has something to do with AX and/or BX, so checking everything involved with them.
Yes. All the relays are labeled. I did do a check on R earlier, and it seemed fine. I'll post pics. It did seem a bit toasty though? What does the Hold relay do?
It's hard to tell, but the M/B switches all appear to function properly when manually moved by the plastic slots on the solenoid. I did run 600 grit in between them, but it was difficult to get to the bottom-most switch since it's kind of hidden.
Also, can't remember if I mentioned earlier, but all the score reels on all players reset to zero with no problems now.
It doesn't really look burnt. Do you have a multimeter, by chance? There is only one M/B on that relay; in the third pic down, is the outer part of the M/B making good contact and then when you push the plastic the inner one does?
In this case, R is part of the sequence that leads to Q. Look at 16I on the schematic and follow that up to Q.
OK, check out the tail end of #5 on the start up sequence, and #6. To get to those Player Unit switches (P5A & B) you'll need to drop the Player Unit by unscrewing the bolt on the top and letting it hinge down. Clean all the P5 sw.,gently, with a swab and 91# rubbing alcohol. There are lateral solders, so be careful there. Be sure to let it evaporate on sw. that are closed. Be sure no lint is left behind (makes for some really odd behavior). Check DX as well.
Can we take a step back for a minute? After working on this practically since Saturday morning and into Sunday late afternoon, my brain has been scrambled, and frankly, overwhelmed, with trying to figure out the process in its entirety. So I thought this morning, that I should maybe just take a step back and think about what's really happening.
Some things that occurred to me:
1. The original problem that indicated that something was wrong was the fact that the 10K score reel on 4P was taking a loooong time to reset to zero. That was upon a power on after the last time a 4P game was played the night prior BUT it would eventually reset to zero.
2. Subsequently after all of the score reels were set to zero, a 1P game (or any # of players) would start up fine, but only if the 4P score was set to zero. If not, back point #1.
3. Zero switch was cleaned on 10K score reel on 4P. Score reel resets to zero with no issues, but now it only happens on Start Up (turning power on).
4. Game now has issue where after the last ball drains on any # of player games, the score motor continues to turn and can't trigger the sequence of events to indicate that the game is over.
5. When that happens, I turn off the power. Turning back on, and starting a new game will allow all score reels to reset to zero, and start a new game.
So I think the main thing is that the game can initiate the start up sequence properly...I think we need to examine the sequence of events that happens after the last ball drains to what triggers the game to stop and know that the game has ended. Basically, I think we need to examine the "End Game" sequence as oppose to the "Start Game" sequence.
This may seem obvious, but laying it out this way for me, clears things up a bit, instead of me racking my brain trying to chase down something that I'm just learning about.
Again currieddog I am so appreciative of all the time and knowledge you've brought to this thread!
Taking a step back and thinking about things is always a good idea. I get a fair amount of revelations if I leave things be overnight.
Soooo, as I said earlier, I think the improper shutdown has to involve the BX. And #6 on the start up seq, AX and BX resets, has to get done for shutdown to happen properly, so I would run thru my post 60 above.
Absolutely. I think NOT having the machine in front of me allows me to think through the process a little better than trying to absorb everything at one time and just going at it. I will certainly go through those steps when the machine IS in front of me. For now, Clay's pinrepair has TONS of excellent information in it!
Also, did you clean the Player Unit rivets and contacts? Give them all a good sanding with 600# sandpaper.
Alrighty, here is something we should have done early on: live check connections, as in poke switches with something non-conductive (eraser end of a pencil is good) with the power on, as visual doesn't always work. I've had more than one sw. that looked like it was making a solid connection turn out not to be. Also just pushing the plastic holder, and a key thing is not to jump and hit something if you get surprised by something kicking on. Esp. check the latch switches: AX, BX, DX, and any other sw. that have been mentioned before, such as R, and I just noticed a make/break on H, the Tilt Hold relay. See the sequence at 13.5 on the schematic that involves Last Ball relay reset? Give that a good look.
Do you know if pinballninja 
cfh has this covered in his website? I'm probably going to get a log-in anyway but just wondering if this was there? I really hate messing with things when the machine is on, but I understand why that's necessary. After a game, I've been manually tripping the Game Over relay to see if I can get any other ideas or an "Ah Ha" moment if you will.
When I'm checking these switches, what stage should the machine be in while I'm doing it? Should there be a ball in the drain hole? Should a game be started? Not started?
Aarau
Hi FatPanda
I read Your post-62 --- 1. The original problem, 2. Subsequently ... if not then back to #1: (((Well, to end the start-up of a new game: The pin NEEDS to have all Score-Drums stepped forward to have reached position-zero.))) 3. and 4. and 5. When that happens I turn-off the power - then turn-on again.
Also You wrote some place +/- "I am not an expert - feel uneasy to work on the pin when it is powered-on - feel uneasy to use Jumper-Wires / Test-Lights".
I see different ways to proceed - to focus on. Please make-up Your mind and tell us what You want -
AAA You live for a while with a pin You ONLY can play a 1,2,3 player game --- You have set the Score-Drums of Player-4 to Zero and You only play 1,2,3 player games. Also You accept "when the very last ball is played and lost: I (means You) toggle-off the main power sitch and toggle-on again (this forces an "Game-Over")". With this (AAA) situation we look for other faults and fix these other faults.
BBB You say "Want to fix the problems on the FOURTH Player.
CCC You say "Want to fix the Game-Over problem".
Tell us - do You want AAA or BBB or CCC - or something else ? Greetings Rolf
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:Hi FatPanda
I read Your post-62 --- 1. The original problem, 2. Subsequently ... if not then back to #1: (((Well, to end the start-up of a new game: The pin NEEDS to have all Score-Drums stepped forward to have reached position-zero.))) 3. and 4. and 5. When that happens I turn-off the power - then turn-on again.
Also You wrote some place +/- "I am not an expert - feel uneasy to work on the pin when it is powered-on - feel uneasy to use Jumper-Wires / Test-Lights".
I see different ways to proceed - to focus on. Please make-up Your mind and tell us what You want -
AAA You live for a while with a pin You ONLY can play a 1,2,3 player game --- You have set the Score-Drums of Player-4 to Zero and You only play 1,2,3 player games. Also You accept "when the very last ball is played and lost: I (means You) toggle-off the main power sitch and toggle-on again (this forces an "Game-Over")". With this (AAA) situation we look for other faults and fix these other faults.
BBB You say "Want to fix the problems on the FOURTH Player.
CCC You say "Want to fix the Game-Over problem".
Tell us - do You want AAA or BBB or CCC - or something else ? Greetings Rolf
The only problem the machine is having now is that the after the last ball drains, and it counts bonus, the score motor keeps running and it cannot initiate "Game Over." Doesn't matter how many players, and all of the score reels move to zero correctly.
Since there are no boards to burn, and only a few fuses that I could potentially blow, I am ok to work with the power on.
I am trying to report the machine's behavior as accurately as possible so that all of the information is there, so I apologize if my posts are confusing. It has done a lot of things since I started poking around, and by reporting it, hope to give you all a clear picture of what is happening without you actually being here. 
Hi FatPanda
O.K. the Game-Over problem. I assume we all agree on "post-30, JPG, "encircled red area": THERE is the problem. In post-41, JPG, upper half is trouble-shooting with an (or 2,3,4 ...) Test-Light(s) - TWO car-bulbs of 12Volts mounted one behind the other makes an nice Test-Light of 24Volts. I like Test-Lights - we can hook-on when the pin is toggled-off --- then toggling-on - then starting a game, playing a game: The Test-Light(s) may stay dark - may light up - may light-up with a flash - blow loke a fuse blows - worst case: Test-Light(s) and fuse blow.
In the JPG, lower part is "working with Jumper-Wires". I LIKE to have Jumper-Wires with "toggle-switch mounted in the wire" --- I can toggle-off the pin - mount the Jumper-Wire (have the toggle-switch in the Jumper-Wire toggled-off) - then toggle-on the pin etc. --- At a specific time I toggle-on the "Switch in the Jumper-Wire". (((We can work with two Jumper-Wires - putting at some time the free ends of the two wires together - just like closing / toggling a switch.)))
SteveFury shows his Test-Light here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics#post-2634425 --- want to make Yourself such an Test-Light (or two or three Test-Lights - a really good tool). Want to get some Jumper-Wires - maybe mount an Toggle-Switch in the wire (((we can (beeing careful) use simple Jumper-Wires not having an switch in the wire --- we then need 4 looooong Jumper-Wires - each maybe ten feet long))).
Make You some Test-Light(s) and or looooong Jumper-Wires (maybe with an toggle-switch in the wire) and we do little steps in testing "in the mentioned encircled red area". Greetings Rolf
Quoted from FatPanda:Do you know if pinballninja cfh has this covered in his website?
I don't know what that is.
Looking again at Operating Instructions, #10, it is crucial that BX gets tripped. Check the NC sw. on "E" that goes into the DX at 15 on the schematic, and that is dependent, if you look back and up on the schematic, on the make/break on AX and the NC sw. on Q. So check all of those.
With the unit on and a game started, press NC switches and the closed part of make/breaks.
Quoted from currieddog:I don't know what that is.
cfh is Clay's pinside username. Is he not the pinball ninja? I thought he was.
As for the rest of it. I must decipher your language haha
Quoted from FatPanda:Clay's pinside username. Is he not the pinball ninja? I thought he was.
Oh, he might be. I would guess that he'd say to check and follow the instructions thru.
Hi FatPanda, currieddog +
FatPanda plays the last ball in a game - looses the ball - ball enters the Outhole - now the fault shows up and FatPanda toggles off the main power switch. ALL Coils on ALL Relays have no current flowing - the R-Relay let go and the "Switch in the JPG, encircled green, Make-and-Brake-Switch on R-Relay" moves into state "as drawn in the JPG". THEN FatPanda toggles-on the main power switch - NOW through "marked green wiring the Coil on Q-Relay gets current - Q-Relay pulls-in, closes "encircled red switch" for some time the Coil on Q-Relay is feeded "through green wiring and through yellow wiring". FatPanda then starts a new game - the R-Relay pulls-in and the AX-Relay pulls-in --- and Q-Relay quits pulling.
At end of a game the Q-Relay shall pull-in: In the "encircled brown area - at the brown question marks". Greetings Rolf
Quoted from currieddog:Looking again at Operating Instructions, #10, it is crucial that BX gets tripped. Check the NC sw. on "E" that goes into the DX at 15 on the schematic, and that is dependent, if you look back and up on the schematic, on the make/break on AX and the NC sw. on Q. So check all of those.
Check out the Operating Instructions, Rolf, and the schematic for Last Ball relay at about 15. If the BX is not tripped it won't shut down correctly.
FatPanda-after you've played the last ball and while the motor is still running, try pressing the closed switches on the relays that have been mentioned, esp. E and BX.
I was trying to check some of the sw. on my TA so I could take pix and did something which took a while to straighten out. Shows how testy those lock switches can be.
I found the problem! This switch is normally closed. I adjusted it back so that it is NC. I believe it is 2C on the score motor. Games play and end like normal now. Thank you all so much for your help!
How does this even happen? I literally have not touched anything under the playfield since ownership.
The outer sw? You might have caught your sleeve on it. Any rate, fabulous, and now you know most of the switches on the unit INTIMATELY! 
Yes it was the outer switch. I really have not touched anything underneath since owning it (it's been a few months)! So really not sure how it came out. But yes, this has been a great learning experience! It's not nearly as mysterious as I once thought it was, and the plus side is that I have a bunch of clean switches and stepper units AND I didn't royally screw anything up in the process Double bonus on that!
And again, thanks to you and Rolf for the help!
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