Gottlieb Target Alpha game reset issues

(Topic ID: 211296)

Gottlieb Target Alpha game reset issues


By FatPanda

9 months ago



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  • 81 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 months ago by FatPanda
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There are 81 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 9 months ago

My first EM problem. It was bound to happen sooner or later. DISCLAIMER: Complete EM newbie, so talk to me as if I know nothing (which is pretty much true)

First, I occasionally play a 4 player game to keep all of the motors and reels moving. Started up a 4P game this morning, and noticed that the 10K reel wasn't moving back to 0 upon re-start. Finally, all scores reset to 0 after a couple minutes, when it usually takes seconds. Now I'm into troubleshooting mode.

"Play" a 4P game, just making sure I have points on all the digits. Player 4 has no problems scoring in any of the digits, so it's not the score reel. OK.

4P game is done, game is over.

Start another 4P game, and again, the 10K unit has "trouble" moving again. I look underneath while the machine chugging along and notice that it's (literally what I've just learned) the score motor chugging. Just keeps going and going, and every once in a while the 10K reel clicks and moves a position until after a few minutes it all resets to 0 and stops.

I tried my best to clean all of the switches that I can reach easily, being careful not to bend the leaf switches out of their original position. I used a contact burnisher from Pinball Life (was this where I screwed up?)

Start up a new game with my fingers crossed. Go through a 1P game, drain ball 3 (set to 3 ball games), all bonuses are added up, 1P and 4P are lit on the back box and the score motor continues to chug along, even though the rest of the scores read 0.

The game won't stop chugging until I turn it off. Upon turning it on, and starting a new game, it starts up fine.

Any help will be appreciated! Again, caveman terms for me as best as you can! Thank you!

#2 9 months ago

Likely it's the "0" pos. sw. on that reel. Those reels are rather tetchy, and something that looks ok can actually need a slight bit of adjustment.

So, with the game off, manually push the plunger to advance the reel to 0, then make sure the 0 pos. sw. is making good contact. Also not a bad idea to make sure all the player unit contacts and rivets are nice and shiny clean, as they're part of the Z1 and Z2 relay reset process at the beginning of games. PU is in the middle of the backbox. Use 600# or so sandpaper.

Read more here: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#reels

#3 9 months ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

I tried my best to clean all of the switches that I can reach easily, being careful not to bend the leaf switches out of their original position. I used a contact burnisher from Pinball Life (was this where I screwed up?)

The shotgun approach to switch adjustment will cause more problems than it solves.

Quoted from FatPanda:

the score motor continues to chug along

First step is find out what's making the motor run. Which if any of these relays held on while the motor is running?

Pinball (resized).png

#4 9 months ago

The O "ball return relay" is running when trying to reset

#5 9 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Likely it's the "0" pos. sw. on that reel. Those reels are rather tetchy, and something that looks ok can actually need a slight bit of adjustment.
So, with the game off, manually push the plunger to advance the reel to 0, then make sure the 0 pos. sw. is making good contact. Also not a bad idea to make sure all the player unit contacts and rivets are nice and shiny clean, as they're part of the Z1 and Z2 relay reset process at the beginning of games. PU is in the middle of the backbox. Use 600# or so sandpaper.
Read more here: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#reels

I used 600 grit sandpaper to clean the contacts on that reel and it made no difference.

Also noticing that it "awards" an extra ball when an extra ball was not earned (possibly on the "last" player in a multiplayer game). Hopefully it is related and can be resolved with the other issue.

#6 9 months ago

The gap on the contacts of the "0" relay, FatPanda. They have to touch when the reel is at 0. The two others don't then.

Note the make/break AX sw. on the snippet that HowardR posted. Those are also on the tetchy side; have to be adjusted so that they have a nice snap when they lock and unlock. So, check for correct gap and cleanliness on that, as it affects the O sw. as well. Educational moment: figure out which of the two M/B's it is by the wire colors.

#7 9 months ago

Yes they touch when the reel is at zero. The others don't.

You aren't referring to the O ("Oh") relay, right?

#8 9 months ago

No, the zero sw. on your 10K reel. Note edited remark above.

Note difference b/w '0' (zero) and 'O' (Oh).

#9 9 months ago

Ok. On the affected score reel, the zero contacts touch when the score displays zero. The others do not touch.

#10 9 months ago

Solid contact? If so, now move on to the AX.

#11 9 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Solid contact? If so, now move on to the AX.

The AX is in reference to the line of relays in the above schematic? Was going to check the Oh relay as mentioned above. Cleaning the switches and whatnot.

#12 9 months ago

Yes the contact is solid from what i could see

#13 9 months ago

Yes, it's on the bottom right of the cabinet, first one. Re-read my comments. Here is more info: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#clean

That switch, like the rest, are held on by a cotter pin in the back. Be very careful taking it out and replacing because if you lose it and it goes under the board it can be a pita to find. You will have to take it out to properly check it. Be careful not to squeeze anything that shouldn't be; I've done that. The O sw. is probably ok and just being affected by something else.

#14 9 months ago

AX was taken out and examined. Contacts were cleaned with the 600 grit sand paper. I took out one of the stacks (taking a picture of where the leafs lined up in their slots)....it was a pain to get back into it's proper slots, so I'm not going to really do that again unless I absolutely need to!

I couldn't see anything that was broken. Solenoid lugs seemed ok, all wires were intact, all contacts should be clean, and I don't think I squeezed anything that shouldn't have been squeezed.

#15 9 months ago

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#16 9 months ago

Besides making sure that the contacts were clean, you need to push the plastic piece and look REAL close to make sure they're making good contact and "wiping." Also that the screws are tight. Good idea to check all the solders, too. Does the AX snap when you lock/unlock it?

And yeah, once you pull the blades out of those slots you usually don't do it again unless you have to.

#17 9 months ago

all the switches make good contact. There isn't a huge range of motion, but when I use the plastic piece to lock/unlock, all of the contacts are solid; it can squeeze the piece of sandpaper tightly. The "wiping" motion is minimal if at all. And yes, it does "snap" when I move the plastic piece back and forth to activate the switches.

#18 9 months ago

All the solder looks good. One of them looks kind of funny since it connects two of the switch lugs together, but it must have been like that before when it was working since I can't work it loose?

#19 9 months ago

The red/white wires connect the lugs of two leafs.

20180303_164612 (resized).jpg

#20 9 months ago

Any change in play?

#21 9 months ago

No, still doesn't reset after the game is over. The score motor still continues to rotate and the Oh relay still pulls.

#22 9 months ago

This solenoid with the blue wrapper continuously pulses if that means anything

20180303_171213 (resized).jpg

#23 9 months ago

Would poor electrical contact on the stepper unit above cause the game to not "know" that the game is over and that it should reset? (Hence the constant pulsing of the coil) Should I clean the contact points on the bakelite disc and the fingers? I didn't notice any poor wiring connections or solder joints.

#24 9 months ago

I found this amazing video by SteveFury that does a fantastic job of explaining the start sequence. I've viewed specific parts many times and have checked several of the associated switches as best I can, however the score motor is the one thing that I can't identify which switch is which (not that I know for certain what the other switches are either). The other part that I'm having trouble linking is after the end of a game, the score motor keeps turning. Obviously, there is a switch that is not pulsing (over vice versa) to tell the score motor to stop. I think there is something in between the player unit not telling the AX relay to latch/unlatch either.

Anyways any further help would be appreciated!

#25 9 months ago

Hi FatPanda
in post-21 You write "game (comes to /) is game-over but the O-Relay stays pulling". The list of relays in the schematics says "Q-Relay has 2A, 2C, 1C Switches" - 2 N.O.-Switches (open when the relay is not pulling), 2 N.C.-Switches (closed when the relay is not pulling) - 1 threebladed Make-and-Brake-Switch. One of the two N.C.-Switches has wires soldered-on: color-Slate-White and color-Yellow-Black. IF (if, if) this switch does not truely open when the Q-Relay pulls-in: The O-Relay does not stop pulling. I see this switch on Q-Relay in the schematics at 20-G / 20-H, Greetings Rolf

#26 9 months ago

Short video of what happens after the last ball drains.

#27 9 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi FatPanda
in post-21 You write "game (comes to /) is game-over but the O-Relay stays pulling". The list of relays in the schematics says "Q-Relay has 2A, 2C, 1C Switches" - 2 N.O.-Switches (open when the relay is not pulling), 2 N.C.-Switches (closed when the relay is not pulling) - 1 threebladed Make-and-Brake-Switch. One of the two N.C.-Switches has wires soldered-on: color-Slate-White and color-Yellow-Black. IF (if, if) this switch does not truely open when the Q-Relay pulls-in: The O-Relay does not stop pulling. I see this switch on Q-Relay in the schematics at 20-G / 20-H, Greetings Rolf

Hi Rolf! I will reread this about 50 times then check back in! I'm not quite fully understand but will try to figure it out.

#28 9 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi FatPanda
in post-21 You write "game (comes to /) is game-over but the O-Relay stays pulling". The list of relays in the schematics says "Q-Relay has 2A, 2C, 1C Switches" - 2 N.O.-Switches (open when the relay is not pulling), 2 N.C.-Switches (closed when the relay is not pulling) - 1 threebladed Make-and-Brake-Switch. One of the two N.C.-Switches has wires soldered-on: color-Slate-White and color-Yellow-Black. IF (if, if) this switch does not truely open when the Q-Relay pulls-in: The O-Relay does not stop pulling. I see this switch on Q-Relay in the schematics at 20-G / 20-H, Greetings Rolf

Fantastic! So the Game Over Relay (Q Relay) does not pulse when the last ball drains. As the score motor was running like in the above video, a manual activation on the Q relay will stop the game (as normal). Pressing Start again will start a new game as normal! Progress!!

Now the question is, what causes the Q Relay to pulse?

#29 9 months ago

It's in here somewhere?
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#start
1975-1978 Gottlieb Start-Up Sequence
Multi-player games with Ax/Bx relays

#30 9 months ago

Hi FatPanda
check "encircled red" area / wiring / switches. Greetings Rolf

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#31 9 months ago

Give the BX relay (last ball) a good going over like you did with the AX. Score motor 4C fourth sw. is also worth a look. You have the schematic, yes? There is a pic on the bottom left of the score motor sw. pos., and also one of the "L" and "S" 'switch dogs' pos. ; make sure they're on right. 2 is the only one that is in the "L" pos.

And that is one clean interior! Shiny score motor, too.

TA score motor (resized).jpg

#32 9 months ago

Not really sure what happened here?! I cleaned the contacts with 600 grit sandpaper and 91% rubbing alcohol. Checked that the wires were all connected, check that the mech and fingers moved freely, which they do, and now when I press Start one time, the game progresses to P1, P3, P4, then back to P1!

20180304_105840 (resized).jpg

#33 9 months ago

Also these switches on the coin unit with 600 grit sandpaper

20180304_110202 (resized).jpg

#34 9 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Give the BX relay (last ball) a good going over like you did with the AX. Score motor 4C fourth sw. is also worth a look. You have the schematic, yes? There is a pic on the bottom left of the score motor sw. pos., and also one of the "L" and "S" 'switch dogs' pos. ; make sure they're on right. 2 is the only one that is in the "L" pos.
And that is one clean interior! Shiny score motor, too.

I don't have a copy of the schematic. Tbh, and I know you won't like hearing this, but this is turning me off to EM ownership so bad. Its just out of my comfort zone (being SS and later). I will check everything from your post as best as I can. Not sure how to ID the switches on the score motor though.

#35 9 months ago

Here's something I should have posted before.

Aren't the relays labeled? BX is the second on the right on the bottom.

TA start up (resized).jpg

#36 9 months ago

Unfortunately, not good. I'll have to go over the switches you mentioned. It's exhibiting worse behavior than before (see a couple posts up). Again, I didn't change any positions of anything, but I obviously did something the game didn't like.

#37 9 months ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Tbh, and I know you won't like hearing this, but this is turning me off to EM ownership so bad.

Blasphemy! Haha, keep at it and it will come to you. At least you don't have to deal with burnt boards and the like.

TA.pdf

#38 9 months ago

Take a little break, relax, and think about it a bit.

#39 9 months ago

Hi FatPanda
the following is not an fix --- temporary say "want to concentrate on a ONE-Player game - want to proceed in troubleshooting in the Game-Over-Problem". See the bottom of the JPG in post-30 --- an Normally-Open-Switch on S-Start-Relay with wires: color-orange-mingled-with-red, color-brown-mingled-with-red. Toggle-off the pin, unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - when You sneak-in a stripe of paper in-between the contact-points of this switch You make the switch OPEN. Then manually step the Coin-Unit down. Plug-in, toggle-on, start a game - does the pin starts a game and You can play ? Greetings Rolf

#40 9 months ago

Thank you all for your help! I went over BX, as suggested, and also checked the coin unit again. I'm back to being able to start a 1 player game and having it progress through balls 1,2,3 without going into any other players. Whew! I can add 4 players like normal again and progress through balls like normal again.

It is back to exhibiting it's initial behavior, which was not resetting after the last ball drains, as in the video i took above.

So nothing new at the end of all this. Will continue to study your posts and check things! I think a break is in order soon. Been looking at this since 7AM!

#41 9 months ago

Hi FatPanda
SteveFury made an good Test-Light - putting two 12Volt-car-bulbs one behind the other --- see here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics#post-2634425
Such an Test-Light is an "consumer of electricity" as the coil on a relay is an consumer. You can hook-on as shown in the JPG - the Test-Light tells You about "current can flow".

When You do not have an Test-Light: You can use a Jumper-Wire to FORCE connection. See the bottom of the JPG --- when You hook-up "Coil on Q-Relay to Switch on O-Relay" and You play a ONE-Player-Game: AAA: The Game-Over-Relay pulls-in at end of the game --- or BBB: It does not pull-in.

AAA: The fault must be somewhere in the wiring and switch on Coin-Unit - somehere inbetween "Switch on O-Relay to Coil on Q-Relay.
BBB: Maybe the Game-Over-Relay-COIL is dead or then: The fault is somewhere in the wiring "to switch-motor-2C - through ... to Switch on the O-Relay --- or the O- or the BX-Relay are not pulling-in. Greetings Rolf

0Target-Alpha-Work-25 (resized).jpg

#42 9 months ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi FatPanda
SteveFury made an good Test-Light - putting two 12Volt-car-bulbs one behind the other --- see here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics#post-2634425
Such an Test-Light is an "consumer of electricity" as the coil on a relay is an consumer. You can hook-on as shown in the JPG - the Test-Light tells You about "current can flow".
When You do not have an Test-Light: You can use a Jumper-Wire to FORCE connection. See the bottom of the JPG --- when You hook-up "Coil on Q-Relay to Switch on O-Relay" and You play a ONE-Player-Game: AAA: The Game-Over-Relay pulls-in at end of the game --- or BBB: It does not pull-in.
AAA: The fault must be somewhere in the wiring and switch on Coin-Unit - somehere inbetween "Switch on O-Relay to Coil on Q-Relay.
BBB: Maybe the Game-Over-Relay-COIL is dead or then: The fault is somewhere in the wiring "to switch-motor-2C - through ... to Switch on the O-Relay --- or the O- or the BX-Relay are not pulling-in. Greetings Rolf

I will read and study this! Thank you! Connecting things with the power on make me very nervous. Unless Im told exactly where to connect what, i probably wont try it out on my own since I don't want to make things worse. But I will read the attached link and try to learn something from it.

#43 9 months ago

What happens if you switch to 5 ball? and did you check the score motor 4C sw?

#44 9 months ago

Haven't done anything since my last post. Let me see if I can find motor 4C sw. So just to be clear, the 4C sw is the switch stack that is actuated by the top plate in the 4th position as indicated by the schemtic (to the clockwise position of the diagonal 3 sw. stack)?

#45 9 months ago

And is it a wise idea to remove the entire unit out to examine or just leave as is? That was one of the switch stacks I "cleaned" in when I made my first post.

#46 9 months ago

From this view, looking at the switch stack in 6 o'clock position, the larger of the 2 stacks.

20180304_140417 (resized).jpg

#47 9 months ago

I believe this is the "home" position, from top to bottom the switches are:
OPEN
OPEN
OPEN
closed
closed

20180304_140432 (resized).jpg

#48 9 months ago

Score motor lettering starts at the bottom. I can see the sw. your pic. 4 is at the bottom of that pic. 3 1/2, the single-blade brake, is always a good reference point.

#49 9 months ago

Here it is actuated:
Closed
Closed
Closed
OPEN
OPEN

20180304_140440 (resized).jpg

#50 9 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Score motor lettering starts at the bottom. I can see the sw. your pic. 4 is at the bottom of that pic. 3 1/2, the single-blade brake, is always a good reference point.

so I am looking at the correct one?

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