Gottlieb System 80 PS voltage off?

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Ground_updates

I've been working on my Mars God of War machine. Been trying to get my Power Supply voltage correct on it. I've rebuild my PS with the method described here and it didn't give me any improvement.

Before the upgrade I got these readings with the ground mod only lower connection PS board connected.

TP 1 63 Volts
TP 2 52 Volts
TP 4 3.20 Volts
TP 5 4.55 Volts

After the rebuild and Orange cap in bottom of the cabinet replaced.

TP1 63.4
TP2 46.5
TP4 3.40
TP5 4.55

I've got some new bridge rectifiers on the way. I'm just not positive it'll solve my problem though. Anybody have any idea's what else to check?

#2 11 years ago

JDH

Oneinchbiceps

Pinside member

Both LED light up 12v and 5v but the power off when measuring with DMM.

#3 11 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Chris' Pinball Repair

Chesterfield, MO

12y 120K 9,997 46

TP1 and 2 are fine.
TP3 is the 8V bias voltage for the 6 digit displays. I find that it measures flakey without displays connected.
TP4 is the real problem. Check continuity between the legs of Q3 (the big transistor in the middle) and the parts it should connect to. You can see the traces trough the board. Also measure DC voltage between ground and pins 4 and 5 of the LM723. If the voltage is different at those two pins, the 723 is shot.

Good Luck!
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#4 11 years ago

JDH

Oneinchbiceps

Pinside member

Alright I have continuity on both sides of Q3. I'll test out the LM723 like you said but first I'd like to get a answer on something I found last night.

Looks like the Bridge Rectifier has a line that runs to the pin 1 of Power Supply A2J1 connection. It connects on the side that has a Red Yellow Yellow line. On the Schematics this doesn't look correct cause the only line I see connected to the Rectifier is Red Yellow Yellow line. It's a Red Black Black line that runs to the Power Supply. It looks like the Rectifier been changed before doesn't look original. I'm thinking that line runs to + side of the C1 6800 Uf Cap.

Does this seem right to you just wanted to check my work before I do it. Here some photo's so you can see what I'm talking about.

Am I looking at this right? Does this connection seem incorrect to you? IMG_20130311_230450PS.jpg IMG_20130311_230302PS.jpg IMG_20130311_230541PS.jpg IMG_20130311_230546.jpg

#5 11 years ago

RJP

Patofnaud

Pinside member

It just looks like when the bridge was replaced they shifted all wires one tab counterclockwise. No biggie.

As long as the +VDC output wire (your Red Black Black) is directly opposite of the ground (green wire, and it is opposite) your fine.

The two VAC lines can be swapped between each other with no issues (Red Yellow Yellow and what appears to be Red Orange) just have to be on opposing sides, and they are.

What is odd though is that your power connector on the supply, the 12VDC and Ground, appear to be jammed into the connector and not 'wedged' into the displacement connector. Are they soldered in like that or just shoved in?

#6 11 years ago

JDH

Oneinchbiceps

Pinside member

They are shoved in but they are pinned. I was trying to get em loose last night but I don't have a .156 pin extractor and I couldn't get them out so they are in there pretty good.

Thanks for the answer on the Red Black Black line. So I should put it back like it was, will do.

Also I am getting beep between Red Yel Yel/ Red Black Black leds to the Red Orange led. Does that mean the Rectifier bad?

#7 11 years ago

RJP

Patofnaud

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Oneinchbiceps:
Thanks for the answer on the Red Black Black line. So I should put it back like it was, will do.

Wha wha wha? I said your fine. No need to move them.

#8 11 years ago

RJP

Patofnaud

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Oneinchbiceps:
Also I am getting beep between Red Yel Yel/ Red Black Black leds to the Red Orange led. Does that mean the Rectifier bad?

Not necessarily, depends on what setting you have the meter on and lead orientation.

If using a meter on resistance setting, one direction between those two points will get low resistance, flip the leads and you will get high resistance.

Best bet is there is a youtube on how to test bridges.

But back up, what are you trying to fix? Missing 12VDC?

OP
Quoted from Oneinchbiceps:
Both LED light up 12v and 5v but the power off when measuring with DMM.

There appears to be a word or two missing in this statement.

#9 11 years ago

JDH

Oneinchbiceps

Pinside member

12 volt and 5 volt LED lights but the 5 volt isn't correct according to my DMM. TP 5 is off to but Chris Hibler said that's pretty common if the displays are not hooked up.

#10 11 years ago

RJP

Patofnaud

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Oneinchbiceps:
12 volt and 5 volt LED lights but the 5 volt isn't correct according to my DMM.

LEDS just say voltage in the general range is present, not that it is correct.

And what problem are you trying to fix? Does it not boot? Or are you just trying to get TP 4 up from 4.55v up to 5v?

OP
Quoted from Oneinchbiceps:
TP 5 is off to but Chris Hibler said that's pretty common if the displays are not hooked up.

Chris knows his stuff and speaks the truth.

#11 11 years ago

JDH

Oneinchbiceps

Pinside member

Yeah the highest I can get the voltage is 3.40 with the pot all the way up on TP 4. That doesn't seem to be in range and I don't even have the other boards hooked up.

#12 11 years ago

RWH

Pinside member

Norwood, OH

13y 132K 9,929 2 10

OP
Quoted from Oneinchbiceps:
Yeah the highest I can get the voltage is 3.40 with the pot all the way up on TP 4. That doesn't seem to be in range and I don't even have the other boards hooked up.

The pot itself could be bad, gottliebs were known for using cheap ones. I had to replace mine.

#13 11 years ago

RJP

Patofnaud

Pinside member

Ok so TP4 shows 3.4vdc,

What does your 12vdc incoming on A2J1-1 look like? Are you getting a full 12vdc?

If 12vdc is down in the 11vdc range on a METER, did you/check replace C1 (the 6800uf cap) off the output of the 12vdc bridge? From you bridge picture I see a new cap just above the bridge, but can't tell if that is C1. The original C1 caps are orange and are all defective now due to age and have to go.

If 12vdc is good, what were the results of the LM723 test Chris asked you to check?
If 12vdc is good and your not comfortable going deeper on this board, they do have replacements.

#14 11 years ago

JDH

Oneinchbiceps

Pinside member

http://www.bigdaddy-enterprises.com/repairkits/gottlieb_kits.htm#g-80ps1

Quoted from RWH:
The pot itself could be bad, gottliebs were known for using cheap ones. I had to replace mine.

Pot has been replaced when I did the rebuild.

Quoted from Patofnaud:
Ok so TP4 shows 3.4vdc,
What does your 12vdc incoming on A2J1-1 look like? Are you getting a full 12vdc?
If 12vdc is down in the 11vdc range on a METER, did you/check replace C1 (the 6800uf cap) off the output of the 12vdc bridge? From you bridge picture I see a new cap just above the bridge, but can't tell if that is C1. The original C1 caps are orange and are all defective now due to age and have to go.
If 12vdc is good, what were the results of the LM723 test Chris asked you to check?
If 12vdc is good and your not comfortable going deeper on this board, they do have replacements.

I'm going to wait till I get the Bridge Rectifier tomorrow before I hook everything back up and try again. I'll test the LM723 then. I'm pretty sure the bridge is bad but guess I'll find out when I get the new ones. I order the kit off Big Daddy

The C1 is new so I shouldn't need the one in this kit but guess it doesn't hurt to have the extra.

I think we didn't understand each other before about the line orientation or I was confused. I had a Red Black Black line connected to the AC leg along with the Red Yel Yel line. Red Yel Yel correct but Red Black Black shouldn't be there. I'm going to move the Red Black Black line to join the other Red Black Black lines directly opposite of the ground like you said.That looks how the schematics shows it's connected. I think this might be the cause of my voltage lose. This is the line that runs to pin 1 on the power supply board that somebody had connected to the Red Yel Yel leg.

#15 11 years ago

RJP

Patofnaud

Pinside member

Climate Controlled Sfba, CA

OP
Quoted from Oneinchbiceps:
I think we didn't understand each other before about the line orientation or I was confused. I had a Red Black Black line connected to the AC leg along with the Red Yel Yel line. Red Yel Yel correct but Red Black Black shouldn't be there. I'm going to move the Red Black Black line to join the other Red Black Black lines directly opposite of the ground like you said.That looks how the schematics shows it's connected. I think this might be the cause of my voltage lose. This is the line that runs to pin 1 on the power supply board that somebody had connected to the Red Yel Yel leg.

If you are getting 12vdc out of the bridge, it's wired fine. If still wish to rotate ALL wires one spot counter clockwise to match the original cut wire, its for aesthetics only.

If you are getting lower than 12vdc (like a volt or more) then go for it.

#16 11 years ago

SPC

blownfuse

In Memoriam

12y 69,550 2,986 70

Here's an old pic of the bridge in my MGoW. It has all 3 red-black-black wires bound together.

MGoW_12VDC_bridge.jpg

#17 11 years ago

SPC

blownfuse

In Memoriam

Climate Controlled Sfba, CA

12y 69,550 2,986 70

Huh? If the wires are rotated counter clockwise by one lug on the bridge from where they are now, you'll blow up the bridge or the fuse. Unless you meant rotate the bridge keeping the wires on the lugs they're on now, that would be different. Just clarifying.

System 80, not just a job, it's an adventure

Quoted from Patofnaud:
If still wish to rotate ALL wires one spot counter clockwise to match the original cut wire, its for aesthetics only.

#18 11 years ago

RJP

Patofnaud

Pinside member

Climate Controlled Sfba, CA

True, let me put it this way..

Look closely at the bridge, two terminals should be marked 'AC', one marked '+' and one marked '-'

As long as you have your GREEN (54?) wire on '-', your Red/Black/Black (200) wire on '+', your RED/ORANGE/ORANGE (233) on an 'AC' and the remaining RED/YELLOW/YELLOW (244) on the remaining 'AC' then you are fine.

bridge.jpgBridge_12vdc.jpg

Don't trust the stub of wire already on the bridge, trust the wire colors and the markings on the bridge.

#19 11 years ago

SPC

blownfuse

In Memoriam

12y 69,550 2,986 70

There you go. If you had said it this way first, I wouldn't have anything to say at all.

Quoted from Patofnaud:
True, let me put it this way..
Look closely at the bridge, two terminals should be marked 'AC', one marked '+' and one marked '-'
As long as you have your GREEN (54?) wire on '-', your Red/Black/Black (200) wire on '+', your RED/ORANGE/ORANGE (233) on an 'AC' and the remaining RED/YELLOW/YELLOW (244) on the remaining 'AC' then you are fine.

Don't trust the stub of wire already on the bridge, trust the wire colors and the markings on the bridge.

#20 11 years ago

RJP

Patofnaud

Pinside member

#21 11 years ago

JDH

Oneinchbiceps

Pinside member

Thanks for the help guys. Guess the bridge was good all along. It was just getting continuity from the circuit. I connected the Red Black Black line where it should be with the other Red Black Black lines and power on the machine with the Power Supply unhooked on all connections.

I then test the volts on the plug pin 1 and 2 and got 15.68DC. Hope that isn't to high.

I then plugged that connection in and tested the board without any other connection plugged up. I got as follow.

TP1 64.1
TP2 46.6
TP4 5.01 (Adjusted it by the pot to get this number it was like 5.60 some before)
TP5 8.23

That all checked out. I then plugged in all the connections and power on the machine. Game fired right up. Everything worked besides sound and some pop bumpers. I may find other coils that are not working but for now that's all I notice.

Had some digits out in the displays but I'm just glad the machine up and working to some extent. Now I gotta move on to the sound issues.

Once again thanks so much I'm sure I'll be bugging you guys about the sound soon enough.

#22 11 years ago

RJP

Patofnaud

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Oneinchbiceps:
Everything worked besides sound and some pop bumpers. I may find other coils that are not working but for now that's all I notice.

Check/reseat your MUP to driver board cable, look for corrosion, especially on the left side below the battery. Pinwiki shows that.

OP
Quoted from Oneinchbiceps:
Had some digits out in the displays but I'm just glad the machine up and working to some extent.

If some of the digits are bright, and some are weak or out, re-seat the two cables on the right side of the cpu board for a start.. (with power off) Pinwiki has good info on that.

OP
Quoted from Oneinchbiceps:
Now I gotta move on to the sound issues.

I'd deal with solenoid issues first as they tend to burn when stuff is wonky, sound won't. Plus your sound select signals are driver off the driver board which could be cleared up by doing the MPU to driver board check/repair.

But before you go crazy on the sound board, re-seat A3J5. Sound board are a bit harder to find once burnt due to some discontinued chips on them.

#23 11 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Chris' Pinball Repair

Chesterfield, MO

12y 120K 9,997 46

Nice work.
One more tip...do not add or remove displays with power on. That will blow the display driver chips.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#24 11 years ago

JDH

Oneinchbiceps

Pinside member

Quoted from Patofnaud:
Check/reseat your MUP to driver board cable, look for corrosion, especially on the left side below the battery. Pinwiki shows that.

If some of the digits are bright, and some are weak or out, re-seat the two cables on the right side of the cpu board for a start.. (with power off) Pinwiki has good info on that.

I'd deal with solenoid issues first as they tend to burn when stuff is wonky, sound won't. Plus your sound select signals are driver off the driver board which could be cleared up by doing the MPU to driver board check/repair.
But before you go crazy on the sound board, re-seat A3J5. Sound board are a bit harder to find once burnt due to some discontinued chips on them.

Alright I'll look into the solenoid issues first. I looked at it a bit earlier. The ramp is blowing it's fuse and the top right pop bumper. I tested the diode and reattached a loose contact on the ramp coil. The coil looks a little toasty but it's still testing good on low resistance. I get about 5 6 ohms on it.

The pop I haven't looked at that close. I tested the coil and it appears good. I didn't check the diode I will later on. When I put new fuses in to test everything alright the pop would work and then seemed like it got stuck on and then released I assume the fuse blew when it released.

The Ramp would just energize soon as the machine was turned on and then release once the fuse blew.

#25 11 years ago

RJP

Patofnaud

Pinside member