(Topic ID: 67173)

Gottlieb System 3 blows F3 immediately (Won't Boot + Display Out)


By Collin

7 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 39 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by Collin
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

#1 7 years ago

Update: I've now got the normal beeping and garbage on screen boot error. Going to do the couple tantalum caps and ROM if necessary.

Original post follows:
I just picked up a Shaq Attaq that won't boot. It gives a continuous beeping when powered on, the display shows nothing, and the only lights that come on are a couple GI lights under the slingshots I believe.

For reference, the seller says it was an intermittent issue and the game has done this on and off for a couple years, and it had booted for him and played just fine earlier today (after the first power-on in months.)

Thanks,

Collin

Update: F3 blows immediately. CPU board LED is flashing in time with beeps.

#2 7 years ago

Use a heat gun and warm up the MPU to see if you can get it to boot.
My MPU has that same problem when it gets warmed up and I would have to turn it off a miniumum of 15 minutes to let it cool down. Yours may be the opposite.

I assume there is no acid damage on the part just below the battery on the MPU. Is there?

#2 7 years ago

Duplicate posting

#2 7 years ago

triple posting.

#2 7 years ago

Just...ugghh!!!

#3 7 years ago

First check the voltages - 12vdc into the PS at pin 1 at the bottom connector, 5vdc out tthe top at any pin. Adjust with the pot on the PS.

If voltages are good try booting just the MPU and DMD - the two boards you need at a minimum to boot. These must be connected by the ribbon. The LEDs on the boards will blink to indicate they are running. If you get no blinking on the MPU you need to verify the ROM and check to make sure the battery did not leak taking out the watchdog below it (rare but possible.) You can also try swapping ribbons between the driver board and DMD. I've seen a bad ribbon keep the board from booting. I would also try pressing the reset button when its on to see if the board starts blinking. If it does you have either bad battery and/or bad watchdog.

viperrwk

#4 7 years ago
Quoted from Collin:

I just picked up a Shaq Attaq that won't boot. It gives a continuous beeping when powered on, the display shows nothing, and the only lights that come on are a couple GI lights under the slingshots I believe. What should I look at first? It sounds like 74HC123AN and the game ROM could be issues, but I probably need to do caps at the same time.
For reference, the seller says it was an intermittent issue and the game has done this on and off for a couple years, and it had booted for him and played just fine earlier today (after the first power-on in months.)
Thanks,
Collin

Typical system3-problem!!! Change capacitors C20 + C21 and you will be happy again. From factory both are 1uF Tantal-capacitors, but you can take as an alternative two "normal" electrolytic capacitors 1uF 20V.

Best regards

Ingo

#5 7 years ago
Quoted from german-pinball:

Typical system3-problem!!! Change capacitors C20 + C21 and you will be happy again. From factory both are 1uF Tantal-capacitors, but you can take as an alternative two "normal" electrolytic capacitors 1uF 20V.
Best regards
Ingo

I just fixed my Shaq with the exact same problems by doing this. Apparently the caps are all dying at the same time.

#6 7 years ago
Quoted from german-pinball:

Typical system3-problem!!! Change capacitors C20 + C21 and you will be happy again. From factory both are 1uF Tantal-capacitors, but you can take as an alternative two "normal" electrolytic capacitors 1uF 20V.
Best regards
Ingo

Hey Ingo, thank you for the help!

Would these work? http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062392&znt_campaign=Category_CMS&znt_source=CAT&znt_medium=RSCOM&znt_content=CT2032230
They're 1uf Tantallum 35v capacitors.

Cheers,

Collin

#7 7 years ago

YES!!!! But as said, you can take also "normal" capacitors (caution, these are polarized), mightbe better and easier to get at your local electronic-shop.

- Ingo

#8 7 years ago

The original caps are spec'd at 50v. The Rat Crap ones you linked will work but never a good idea to go lower on rated caps.

Your problem could be the caps. Could be U11. This boot problem has been well discussed on RGP. You could also possibly solve the issue with a ROM update. If you're running anything less than v5, an update may fix it. Gottlieb did ROM updates around this time to fix this boot problem (v5 for Stargate for example.) Personally, I wouldn't jump into changing caps on the MPU board until I eliminated the easy stuff first.

viperrwk

#9 7 years ago

Okay, so if I'm putting polarized capacitors in place of non-polarized, how do I determine the polarity?

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from viperrwk:

The original caps are spec'd at 50v. The Rat Crap ones you linked will work but never a good idea to go lower on rated caps.
Your problem could be the caps. Could be U11. This boot problem has been well discussed on RGP. You could also possibly solve the issue with a ROM update. If you're running anything less than v5, an update may fix it. Gottlieb did ROM updates around this time to fix this boot problem (v5 for Stargate for example.) Personally, I wouldn't jump into changing caps on the MPU board until I eliminated the easy stuff first.
viperrwk

Do you have a link to where this exact problem is discussed on RGP? I've found a TON of threads with similar symptoms and garbage on the display, but none with the display out, too.

#11 7 years ago

I think this game has bigger issues than I might've guessed.

It turns out fuse F3 was blown. I replaced it, and it blew immediately, and I got a strong sulfur smell.

#12 7 years ago

I'm thinking when I get fuses later this week, I may try starting the game without the display connected, since that isn't working.

#13 7 years ago

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_3#Problems_and_Solutions

There's a good thing to read. Sounds like a board issue, but you'll have to troubleshoot it down some. Are any capacitors bulging? Any burnt connectors? Have you tested the voltage?

#14 7 years ago
Quoted from Collin:

Do you have a link to where this exact problem is discussed on RGP?

My comment was directed at the reset issue that Ingo was describing - not a reset with the display out that you are experiencing. Apologies - pronoun issue.

Quoted from Collin:

I think this game has bigger issues than I might've guessed.
It turns out fuse F3 was blown. I replaced it, and it blew immediately, and I got a strong sulfur smell.

If F3 is blowing, you have a problem with the HV circuit on the display controller which is likely why you have no display. You probably need to rebuild the HV display section.

http://www.greatplainselectronics.com/search.asp?pg=1&stext=GTLB3-HVP-KIT&sprice=&stype=&scat=

I had a conversation with Ed about the caps a short time ago - he wasn't offering them with the kit but is now. While they are likely ok at the moment, given they are 20 years old, probably best to replace them with the rest of the HV section.

You should also double check the fuse holder. The twist holders on Sys3 are notorious for going bad.

If you are going to order from Ed, you should also get the GAL for the display controller from him as well:

http://www.greatplainselectronics.com/search.asp?pg=1&stext=U8G&sprice=&stype=&scat=

You won't find anyone else selling it for less. Between the GAL and HV rebuild that should solve your display problem (unless you also have a ribbon cable problem.)

Quoted from Collin:

I'm thinking when I get fuses later this week, I may try starting the game without the display connected, since that isn't working.

If you do this you have to completely disconnect the display controller otherwise if you haven't already blown U8, you will. Of course, I'm not even sure the machine will boot as I've never tried to boot a Sys3 without the display controller.

viperrwk

#15 7 years ago

I don't have a Shaq Attack, but I have had a bunch of other System3s and have the manuals in front of me for a couple of other System 3s.... F3 is listed as display on all of my other manuals. That being said, you won't get that game to boot without the display board booting.

Disconnect the power connectors going to your display board and power up.... Does the fuse still blow?

#16 7 years ago
Quoted from viperrwk:

My comment was directed at the reset issue that Ingo was describing - not a reset with the display out that you are experiencing. Apologies - pronoun issue.

If F3 is blowing, you have a problem with the HV circuit on the display controller which is likely why you have no display. You probably need to rebuild the HV display section.
http://www.greatplainselectronics.com/search.asp?pg=1&stext=GTLB3-HVP-KIT&sprice=&stype=&scat=
I had a conversation with Ed about the caps a short time ago - he wasn't offering them with the kit but is now. While they are likely ok at the moment, given they are 20 years old, probably best to replace them with the rest of the HV section.
You should also double check the fuse holder. The twist holders on Sys3 are notorious for going bad.
If you are going to order from Ed, you should also get the GAL for the display controller from him as well:
http://www.greatplainselectronics.com/search.asp?pg=1&stext=U8G&sprice=&stype=&scat=
You won't find anyone else selling it for less. Between the GAL and HV rebuild that should solve your display problem (unless you also have a ribbon cable problem.)

If you do this you have to completely disconnect the display controller otherwise if you haven't already blown U8, you will. Of course, I'm not even sure the machine will boot as I've never tried to boot a Sys3 without the display controller.
viperrwk

Well stated, you must have been responding the same time I was.

As far as booting CPUs, the DMD system 3s need the CPU to talk to the DMD board to boot, the alphanumeric System3s do not.

#17 7 years ago
Quoted from ralphwiggum:

Well stated, you must have been responding the same time I was.
As far as booting CPUs, the DMD system 3s need the CPU to talk to the DMD board to boot, the alphanumeric System3s do not.

Thanks for confirming that Ralph. I've never tried to boot without the controller connected and I wasn't about to try now! I have enough things to fix and don't feel the need to add to the list.

viperrwk

#18 7 years ago
Quoted from viperrwk:

Thanks for confirming that Ralph. I've never tried to boot without the controller connected and I wasn't about to try now! I have enough things to fix and don't feel the need to add to the list.
viperrwk

I hear ya.... I rebuild the HV section on EVERY System 3 I get (I think I have had 10 of them), and I just go ahead and socket the U8 at the same time, LOL...

#19 7 years ago

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to wait a few days for fuses to get here before I can do any further testing beyond checking voltages. I checked the 5v line off the power supply, and I think the 12v as well, but no others yet.

Quoted from viperrwk:

My comment was directed at the reset issue that Ingo was describing - not a reset with the display out that you are experiencing. Apologies - pronoun issue.

Thanks for clarifying on that! If I've got the board out anyhow and am reasonably confident in my soldering skills, does it make sense to go ahead and replace those caps as a preventative measure?

Quoted from viperrwk:

If F3 is blowing, you have a problem with the HV circuit on the display controller which is likely why you have no display. You probably need to rebuild the HV display section.
http://www.greatplainselectronics.com/search.asp?pg=1&stext=GTLB3-HVP-KIT&sprice=&stype=&scat=
I had a conversation with Ed about the caps a short time ago - he wasn't offering them with the kit but is now. While they are likely ok at the moment, given they are 20 years old, probably best to replace them with the rest of the HV section.
You should also double check the fuse holder. The twist holders on Sys3 are notorious for going bad.
If you are going to order from Ed, you should also get the GAL for the display controller from him as well:
http://www.greatplainselectronics.com/search.asp?pg=1&stext=U8G&sprice=&stype=&scat=
You won't find anyone else selling it for less. Between the GAL and HV rebuild that should solve your display problem (unless you also have a ribbon cable problem.)

Cool! I'll go ahead and order all that stuff from GPE; I'd been slowly putting together an order knowing I would need some stuff for this game and JackBot once I finished diagnosing issues. Even if someone else were slightly cheaper, I would buy from him based on how user-friendly the way he packages things is.

Quoted from viperrwk:

If you do this you have to completely disconnect the display controller otherwise if you haven't already blown U8, you will. Of course, I'm not even sure the machine will boot as I've never tried to boot a Sys3 without the display controller.
viperrwk

Thanks for the information. With that being the case, what is the best next step for me? Should I start testing components on the display board, or go ahead and rebuild the HV section of the display board?

Quoted from ralphwiggum:

I don't have a Shaq Attack, but I have had a bunch of other System3s and have the manuals in front of me for a couple of other System 3s.... F3 is listed as display on all of my other manuals. That being said, you won't get that game to boot without the display board booting.
Disconnect the power connectors going to your display board and power up.... Does the fuse still blow?

Thanks for the input! I'll test this as soon as I've got fuses. To clarify, should I disconnect power to the DMD itself, or to the display controller board?

#20 7 years ago
Quoted from Collin:

Thanks for the information. With that being the case, what is the best next step for me? Should I start testing components on the display board, or go ahead and rebuild the HV section of the display board?

ralphwiggum said:

I don't have a Shaq Attack, but I have had a bunch of other System3s and have the manuals in front of me for a couple of other System 3s.... F3 is listed as display on all of my other manuals. That being said, you won't get that game to boot without the display board booting.
Disconnect the power connectors going to your display board and power up.... Does the fuse still blow?

Thanks for the input! I'll test this as soon as I've got fuses. To clarify, should I disconnect power to the DMD itself, or to the display controller board?

Go ahead and rebuild the HV section. It is needed on these games as they get older. It is pretty straightforward and simple as well. (if you are comfortable with an iron)

For any testing at all, the only thing we are focused on is getting the CPU and DMD board to talk to each other. Disconnect every connector in the backbox (and the DMD itself) and work your way outwards. So at first, the only thing we want connected is the CPU power, the ribbon between the CPU and DMD board), and the power connectors for the DMD driverboard.

If F3 is blowing with just these hooked up, turn the machine off, disconnect the power connectors from the DMD board, and take the ribbon off of one side (CPU or DMD, doesn't matter). Turn the machine back on, the only thing that will try to light is the CPU. Obviously the game won't boot, but this will allow you to see if F3 blows. If F3 still blows, your issue isn't on the board.

#21 7 years ago
Quoted from ralphwiggum:

Go ahead and rebuild the HV section. It is needed on these games as they get older. It is pretty straightforward and simple as well. (if you are comfortable with an iron)
For any testing at all, the only thing we are focused on is getting the CPU and DMD board to talk to each other. Disconnect every connector in the backbox (and the DMD itself) and work your way outwards. So at first, the only thing we want connected is the CPU power, the ribbon between the CPU and DMD board), and the power connectors for the DMD driverboard.
If F3 is blowing with just these hooked up, turn the machine off, disconnect the power connectors from the DMD board, and take the ribbon off of one side (CPU or DMD, doesn't matter). Turn the machine back on, the only thing that will try to light is the CPU. Obviously the game won't boot, but this will allow you to see if F3 blows. If F3 still blows, your issue isn't on the board.

Got it! Thanks, Tim. I'll follow this once I've got some fuses.

#22 7 years ago
Quoted from Collin:

Thanks for clarifying on that! If I've got the board out anyhow and am reasonably confident in my soldering skills, does it make sense to go ahead and replace those caps as a preventative measure?

I wouldn't unless other things I tried first didn't work. I don't like taking an iron to a board if I don't have to - the exception being to change out 20+ year-old electrolytic caps. Tantalums don't have the same issues especially those that are derated like the ones in this circuit. Of course they can still fail but you have many other things to check before going after those caps.

viperrwk

#23 7 years ago

Okay, I tried booting with just the CPU board, and didn't blow a fuse. Then I tried booting with the CPU board and display driver board, and am still not blowing a fuse. Hooked up everything else except the DMD, and still not blowing a fuse, but the game won't boot. Is that normal?

I did find a blown trace right next to the power connector on the DMD.

#24 7 years ago

Should the game boot and play with just the DMD power and data disconnected?

#25 7 years ago
Quoted from Collin:

Should the game boot and play with just the DMD power and data disconnected?

Game will not boot without DMD controller.

Quoted from ralphwiggum:

disconnect the power connectors from the DMD board, and take the ribbon off of one side (CPU or DMD, doesn't matter). Turn the machine back on, the only thing that will try to light is the CPU. Obviously the game won't boot

Quoted from Collin:

I did find a blown trade right next to the power connector on the DMD.

???

viperrwk

#26 7 years ago
Quoted from viperrwk:

Game will not boot without DMD controller.

???
viperrwk

I had the DMD controller board (in the back of the backbox) connected, but disconnected the data cable and power connector to the actual display.

The DMD has a blown trace; I mistyped "trade" accidentally instead of "trace" at first.

#27 7 years ago

At a minimum, your DMD needs replaced. Could be chicken and egg though, did board take out display or vice versa. What voltages are you getting on the power cable that goes to the DMD?

#28 7 years ago
Quoted from ralphwiggum:

At a minimum, your DMD needs replaced. Could be chicken and egg though, did board take out display or vice versa. What voltages are you getting on the power cable that goes to the DMD?

*edit* Realized I misread what I was supposed to check. Voltages going into DMD controller board below for posterity's sake. Will be back in 2 with voltages going to DMD

original post:

P2:
1: 5.0v DC
2. 25.9v AC
3. 0v (slight DC ripple, 0.0v AC)
4. 12.6v DC
5. 25.9v AC
6. null
7. 25.9v AC
8. 25.9v AC

1. 10v AC
2. 53v AC
3. 83v AC
4. 28.5v AC
5. 24v DC
6. null
7. null
8. null
9. 5v DC
10. 0v

-1
#29 7 years ago

DMD power connector on my game:
25.9v AC
25.8v AC
null
25.9v AC
0v
5.0v DC
12.6v DC
25.9v AC

Per the manual, voltages should be:
-112v DC
-100v DC
null
HV ground
logic ground
5v DC
12v DC
62v DC

#30 7 years ago
Quoted from Collin:

DMD power connector on my game:
25.9v AC
25.8v AC
null
25.9v AC
0v
5.0v DC
12.6v DC
25.9v AC
Per the manual, voltages should be:
-112v DC
-100v DC
null
HV ground
logic ground
5v DC
12v DC
62v DC

Updated this with pins in the right order, and the pinout of this connector from the manual. Looks like something on the display driver board is properly screwed up. Will a rebuild likely take care of that?

#31 7 years ago

Need to verify your input voltages to the DMD controller. It seems to me you're only measuring half the voltage at P1. Meter on AC, red on pin 1, black on pin 2, should see around 58vac. Red on pin 3, black on pin 4 should see around 95vac. Meter on DC, red on pin 5, black on pin 10 should see 20vdc. Red on pin 9, black on 10 should see 5vdc. Without these voltages DMD will not work.

If you have these voltages, next check D1-D4 which rectifies the 58v to DC and D5-D8 which rectifies the 95v to DC. If all of these are good then you need to rebuild the HV section.

viperrwk

#35 7 years ago
Quoted from viperrwk:

Need to verify your input voltages to the DMD controller. It seems to me you're only measuring half the voltage at P1. Meter on AC, red on pin 1, black on pin 2, should see around 58vac. Red on pin 3, black on pin 4 should see around 95vac. Meter on DC, red on pin 5, black on pin 10 should see 20vdc. Red on pin 9, black on 10 should see 5vdc. Without these voltages DMD will not work.
If you have these voltages, next check D1-D4 which rectifies the 58v to DC and D5-D8 which rectifies the 95v to DC. If all of these are good then you need to rebuild the HV section.
viperrwk

Voltages are there, but some are a bit high.
58v AC is actually 65.2v AC
95v AC is actually 105.7v AC
20v DC is actully 23.0v DC
5vDC is actually 4.89v DC

Should I be at all concerned about those numbers being high?

Diodes 1-8 all test fine. Looks like it's HV rebuild time!

#36 7 years ago
Quoted from Collin:

Voltages are there, but some are a bit high.
58v AC is actually 65.2v AC
95v AC is actually 105.7v AC
20v DC is actully 23.0v DC
5vDC is actually 4.89v DC
Should I be at all concerned about those numbers being high?
Diodes 1-8 all test fine. Looks like it's HV rebuild time!

Yep, rebuild time. Voltages look fine but your 5 volt is a hair low. Don't adjust the 5 volt pot yet, just go ahead and rebuild the high voltage. If you are comfortable with an iron, socketing U8 while the board is out isn't a bad idea either.

#37 7 years ago

Rebuild complete, new DMD installed, and the display works!

Game now has the more common issue of not booting with garbage on the display, so it should be more straightforward from here.

#38 7 years ago

Oh, how do you determine the polarity on those C20 and C21 tantalum caps? The originals have markings too small to really make out.

#39 7 years ago

A friend's brother who's an electrical engineer or something like that talked me through checking the polarity while in circuit with the game on.

Caps replaced.

Game works!

I've got some stuff to sort out on it still, like whether all the sounds should sound like crappy MIDI, or how to get the settings so I don't get a minimum of 7 extra balls per play, but IT WORKS!

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 12.50
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
Gweem's Mods
$ 50.00
From: $ 40.00
Cabinet - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
From: $ 18.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
From: $ 20.00
Cabinet - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 249.00
$ 59.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Pixels Arcade Games
$ 119.99
Cabinet - (Alt) Translites
FlyLand Designs
$ 99.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 22.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ModFather Pinball Mods
From: € 3.70
Flipper Parts
Buthamburg
$ 159.00
Tools
PinballSolutions.eu
$ 6,995.00
Pinball Machine
Maine Home Recreation
$ 76.95
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
From: $ 20.00
Various Novelties
Pinball Photos LLC
$ 75.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
RGP Models
$ 29.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
$ 128.00
Playfield - Other
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 12.00
Cabinet - Other
Siegecraft Electronics
$ 229.00
Lighting - Led
PinballBulbs

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside