Gottlieb system 1 Z 22

(Topic ID: 205852)

Gottlieb system 1 Z 22


By Doggy

10 months ago



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  • 20 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 months ago by acebathound
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    Sys1NramR1 (resized).JPG
    5101SYS1R2.PDF (PDF preview)
    Sys1Nram (resized).JPG

    #1 10 months ago

    I need a CMOS STATIC RAM P5101L-3 and found one from docent electronics
    But the part # is 5101P is this compatible for my system1 board? Thanks for any input.

    #2 10 months ago

    I'm pretty sure it needs to be 5101L for system 1 . There is a listing on ebay if you search 5101L ram.

    #3 10 months ago

    Hi and Merry Christmas,

    The Gottlieb SYSTEM 1 board has been originally designed to use a P5101L-3 RAM as Z22. This chip was made by Intel.

    The inscriptions on the circuits can be misleading, but we manage to decode them quite easily:
    - the prefix (letters before the numbers) indicate the manufacturer (PCD for Philips, MWS for Intersil, MCM for Motorola, I or P (or nothing) for Intel.
    - the suffix (letters after the numbers) indicates the sub-type (version), and the type of package.
    A "P" in the suffix indicate a plastic package, a "D" indicate a ceramic package.

    On Intersil, the "A" indicate an improved version (TTL compatible). The "L" was used by Intel, to indicate a version with improved retention performances (low current). But this is only specific to Intel, some other manufacturer (like Intersil) use the 51L01 designation. The model 5101L-3 has a special feature using the E2 pin to turn it into "sleep" mode, reducing the current consumption. This feature has been installed on the GTB SYSTEM 1 (section using the SCL4081).

    So it is recommended to use a true 5101L RAM (or a model having the "sleep" function, selected by E2 pin).
    If you found a 5101P, it's quite sure that it's a basic 5101, not a 5101L.

    #4 10 months ago

    I've installed PCD5101P RAM, and it has seemed to have worked fine.

    #5 10 months ago

    Thanks. For the info guys.
    I read somewhere that the 5101p speed is 150Ns
    And the 5101L is 450Ns..
    I'm thinking that the speed is not so important since forceflow had used the P ram
    I found a 5101L-3 on line for $22
    And 5101p between $7 to $9
    If they both seem to work in the system 1's I'll get the cheaper..thanks again for your input.MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

    #6 10 months ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    I've installed PCD5101P RAM, and it has seemed to have worked fine.

    From what I remember, the PCD parts were some of the lowest standby current 5101's (low micro-amps) so probably the best choice especially if you plan to use a coin battery or a super cap in place of the factory Nicad. Some of the earlier 5101 we're power hungry.

    #7 10 months ago
    Quoted from Doggy:

    I read somewhere that the 5101p speed is 150Ns
    And the 5101L is 450Ns..
    I'm thinking that the speed is not so important since forceflow had used the P ram

    150 ns (nanosecond) is faster than 450 ns --
    It's a measurement of read/write speed/reaction time. Faster (the smaller number) is better when you're not sure about the speed--RAM that is faster can accomidate slower speeds that the board might actually be running at (in most situations).

    #9 10 months ago

    On system ones pretty any 5101 ram will work. It’s not picky at all. But the new Phillips PDC versions are definitely the best version by far in all regards

    #10 10 months ago

    for PCD5101 the suffix letter indicates the package type. PCD5101P is the DIP22-0.4", the one you want for a GTB system 1. PCD5101T is standard outline surface mount package and will not fit.

    I agree about the Phiillips PCD5101P being the most reliable and most compatible (fastest) 5101 type. Very low standby current too.

    #11 10 months ago

    I am less system-1 specialist than system-80 and I have a little doubt about the full compatibility of the 5101.

    On the system-80, no problem, I use Philips PCD5101 without worries for many years.
    On system-1, I will tend to say that it should be the same. But, I would not be so affirmative

    Why ?
    Indeed, all memories produced by Philips, Motorola or Intersil have stand-by mode and should be suitable. They all can operate at low voltage (the retention is ensured at 2 volts). I'm quite sure that, only the very old and first ones made by Intel should not work (and that's why also, they produce an "L" version).
    As long as to replace this RAM, it is also advised to better use a NVRAM (and thus, eliminate the battery).
    These modules use F-RAM technology (Ferroelectric RAM) from Ramtron, or from Cypress, and of course, the operational voltage is standard (no need of battery), access time is fast enough.

    BUT...
    The Pinitech's announcement says : "This adapter does not work with Gottlieb System 1 games."
    Is this the same case for the Nvram.weeby.com module ? As they use the same component (but from Ramtron instead of Cypress), it should also have the same issue ?
    Why can't FRAM replace the 5101 RAM on a system-1 ?

    This announce look strange, but I suppose they have tested it. For me, it should work, unless there is a technical peculiarity that escaped me. But what ? may be this explain why some 5101 doesn't fit to system-1 ?

    #12 10 months ago

    You can use any 5101 in a system1. Heck you can even run the darn thing with no ram! at least i think you can, going from memory. Maybe i'm thinking about the PROM chip (it will boot and run with no game PROM, just can't start a game.) I thought the same was true for RAM but now my memory is failing me....

    I've seen a zillion system1 games over the years, and every darn one has a different brand of 5101 (so it seems). Personally i change them to the Phillips PCD5101, because as Andrew said, it's the best (and frankly cheap, about $1 each), and readily available.

    #13 10 months ago
    Quoted from noflip95:

    The Pinitech's announcement says : "This adapter does not work with Gottlieb System 1 games."
    Is this the same case for the Nvram.weeby.com module ? As they use the same component (but from Ramtron instead of Cypress), it should also have the same issue ?
    Why can't FRAM replace the 5101 RAM on a system-1 ?

    This announce look strange, but I suppose they have tested it. For me, it should work, unless there is a technical peculiarity that escaped me. But what ? may be this explain why some 5101 doesn't fit to system-1 ?

    http://pinitech.com/products/5101_nvram.php

    These 5101 NVRAM modules ARE NOT COMPATIBLE with Gottlieb System 1 pinball machines since the circuit utilized separate data inputs and outputs of the 5101.

    On nvram.weebly.com:
    5101 DUAL CE Battery Eliminating NVRAM
    for Bally -17/-35, Stern M-100/M-200, Gottlieb System 80/A/B, Williams 3-7, Omega Race, Defender & more

    System 1 isn't on the list either.

    It is also abscent from anypin nvram:
    http://lockwhenlit.com/anyPinlist.htm

    Some details in the last post of this thread:
    https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/rec.games.pinball/3L19oyZA-6M

    And details on a prototype module here:

    Gottlieb System 1 NVRAM Adapter
    Posted on 02/26/2014
    http://www.pinitech.com/blog.php?page=7

    #14 10 months ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    http://pinitech.com/products/5101_nvram.php
    These 5101 NVRAM modules ARE NOT COMPATIBLE with Gottlieb System 1 pinball machines since the circuit utilized separate data inputs and outputs of the 5101.
    On nvram.weebly.com:
    5101 DUAL CE Battery Eliminating NVRAM
    for Bally -17/-35, Stern M-100/M-200, Gottlieb System 80/A/B, Williams 3-7, Omega Race, Defender & more
    System 1 isn't on the list either.

    Thanks for the clarification. I never noticed that SYS-1 use separate data-In/Out buses.
    Sure that this require a component with this specification and not all Static RAM/F-RAM can replace the 5101.
    So... all common 5101 (PCD5101, MCS5101...) should works in System-1.

    #15 10 months ago

    As was mentioned, System 1 5101 replacement requires separate input and output data lines. So, its not just about the dual CE support.

    Back in 2016, I designed a board and have been sitting on 50 blanks for a while now (just don't have the time to deal with them other than for my own games). In my design, I used the Simtek STK12C68 NVRam chip instead of the FRAM. It's the same one I used to do NVRam on System 3 Gottlieb boards. It doesn't have any read/write clocking access restrictions like the Ramtron part. So I prefer to use it in my designs. When the system is running normally, the Simtek part works and looks just like a normal 6264 SRAM (read/write access). On power down (loss of 5 volts), it transfers the entire contents of the SRAM over to an EEPROM using a 68-100ufd electrolytic cap to keep it powered long enough to do so. Unfortunately, its a bit more expensive than the China Ramtron pulls but you can still get them reasonably priced as working pulls from china.

    Here it is for $1.83 plus $1.85 shipping or the same seller has 10 shipped for under $15.00

    ebay.com link » Stk12c68 S45 Simtek Sop 28

    ebay.com link » 10pcs Stk12c68 S45 Simtek Sop 28

    Expect anything this cheap to have someone else's old data in it.

    My board has been tested on several Gott. System 1 MPUs and works just fine. It has been sitting in my Joker Poker for over a year now without issues. The board could probably be used in place of any 5101 application regardless of bus requirements. But has not been tested in anything else but Sys 1 and a few other pinball applications. Its certainly overkill for something like a Bally AS-2518 MPU.

    If anyone wants to build some up for themselves, Just PM me.

    Sys1Nram (resized).JPG

    #16 10 months ago

    Here is the schematic for any interested:

    5101SYS1R2.PDF

    #17 10 months ago
    Quoted from CactusJack:

    In my design, I used the Simtek STK12C68 NVRam chip instead of the FRAM. It's the same one I used to do NVRam on System 3 Gottlieb boards.

    Nice! This is actually where I was headed with my own System 1 nvram adapter. Pretty much arrived at the same conclusion with the SIMTEK part being needed after seeing my latest prototype from mid-2017 worked fine with 6264 SRAM, but not with the RAMTRON. I had SIMTEK parts laying around but totally forgot to throw one of those in before selling the Buck Rogers I was testing in 1st quarter 2017.

    [edit] Talked with CactusJack via PM and will be working something out together on current boards he has. Stay tuned

    #18 10 months ago
    Quoted from acebathound:

    If you want, I can send you one of the boards I get in.

    Or, I can send you one of mine!

    I think we were brainstorming together in that other technical discussion thread. I originally laid out Rev 1 with the FRAM. When it didn't work, I kludged together one with the SIMTEK part and it worked.

    Also, the reason for the funky, confused schematic layout is due to me re-assigning various pins in order to streamline the trace routing. I ended up with only 2 vias in that final revision. And by using the through hole Dips, I was able to straddle the 5101 socket to shrink it down a little more.

    Sys1NramR1 (resized).JPG

    #19 10 months ago
    Quoted from CactusJack:

    Or, I can send you one of mine!
    I think we were brainstorming together in that other technical discussion thread. I originally laid out Rev 1 with the FRAM. When it didn't work, I kludged together one with the SIMTEK part and it worked.
    Also, the reason for the funky, confused schematic layout is due to me re-assigning various pins in order to streamline the trace routing. I ended up with only 1 via in that final revision. And by using the through hole Dips, I was able to straddle the 5101 socket to shrink it down a little more.

    Sure, let's do that. PM me with what you want for one or two of them Assembled or bare boards.. whatever works.

    #20 10 months ago

    Just an update on the nvram boards..

    I'll be making CactusJack's boards available over at http://www.pinitech.com likely around mid-January.

    Should have 5-10x of them available right off the bat with parts on-hand. They'll be the red boards as CactusJack posted pictures of earlier in this thread. Happy to work with him on this since he had the extra boards. Good way to test the market for them!

    Anyone interested in getting in on the initial batch of orders, send an email/PM. I'll then notify when they're ready to ship.

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