(Topic ID: 48268)

Gottlieb system 1 problems

By Dengaman

10 years ago


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  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 years ago by pdman
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There are 85 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 10 years ago

I have bought a Gottlieb Close encounters of the third kind.
After al long time of searching I found out both the driver board and power supply were shot. Displays didn't go on and coils were burned.

I ordered 2 new boards from rottendog and placed them last week. After that is still have a few problems with 2 coils that is need to replace.
But there are 3 main problems:

Sound, there is no sound, only one long loud buzz... Driver board is replaced so that can't be the problem.

Roto target, doesn't spin. Records hits, does count them but no spin. I think the transistor under the playing field is blown, am I thinking in the right direction?

The biggest problem, I can't play... Well sometimes it plays...
At first I could play once. After game over I press the credit button again and nothing happens.
At first I thought the credit button was broken. But power off, power on, and when I go in test procedure the button works. I can set high score levels with the button so no problem there.
I found out one oddity, when I start up, I can go into test mode with the white switch, but once I press the credit button everything freezes and I can't go into test mode. Only the high score and 0000000 are shown on the displays after each other.

Then I thought the Mpu board fails but the game boots normally, 5 sec boot delay and displays go on.
In test mode I can set everything, high score levels, reset all the other diagnostics with the reset button on the Mpu, so I think the Mpu is ok.
So where do I have look for problems?

And sometimes when I start up the game after a long time it normally stars and I can play one or 2 games. I suspected the battery, but it gives 4,0v ( yes it is replaced and no corrosion).

Please help me?

#2 10 years ago

http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_1

Good reading on System 1's... Common problem is the interconnect cable between the MPU and the Driver. Read up on that section then inspect yours.

#3 10 years ago

That can cause the problems which i discribed? Or just the biggest problem?
Because my thought is that if a molexpin isn't connecting very well the button doesn't work at all, but the button works fine in test mode...

#4 10 years ago

Hmmmm now it's sounding more like a power issue than a switch/connector... Let me think about this a bit.

#5 10 years ago

I've tested the power supply (new rottendog power supply) and tested 5v, -12v, 60v and 42v.

Tested the voltages on the MPU on the both capacitators and also 5v and -12v. Even my new rottendog driver board gets 5v because the additional 5v LED lights up...

So i don't even think it's a power problem, i've got a few burned coils but disconnected them and taped the open wires so they can't short out.

#6 10 years ago
Quoted from Dengaman:

So i don't even think it's a power problem, i've got a few burned coils but disconnected them and taped the open wires so they can't short out.

What coils??

Are you sure that the machine is not stuck thinking it shot out a ball and it never landed on a switch?

If it's pop bumpers or slings that would be ok, if its a outhole kicker that would cause problems.

#7 10 years ago

I'll check because i disconnected the outhole kicker because the outhole kicker fuse keeps blowing when the outhole kicker coil is activated.
I'll switch it with the knocker (also a-5195) and connect it, after that i will check if the problem is still there...

#8 10 years ago

Before you do that make sure whatever killed the coil has been fixed. New driver board installed/repaired?

#9 10 years ago

The new driver board was already installed and still the fuse blew...

But the problem with the gameplay is solved... Because is killed the outhole kicker the ball didn't leave the hole and play isn't initialized.
But the coil is ok, I did a test with the dmm and got 14,6 ohm. But I think the in404 (diode ???) on the coil is blown... But how can I test that?

Other problem I think i found is the rototarget, it only counts the points but doesn't spin, but one of the problem is that the points of the round targets, pop bumpers etc aren't counted so I think the transistor under the playfield is blown, or am I seeing things that aren't connected to each other ?

#10 10 years ago
Quoted from Dengaman:

But the problem with the gameplay is solved... Because is killed the outhole kicker the ball didn't leave the hole and play isn't initialized.

That's what I figured once you said you had disconnected coils..

To test the diode you should disconnect one end.. http://www.elexp.com/t_test.htm

Is the coil burnt and discolored?

When the coil was attached did it fire and stay on?

On a system 1, the driver for outhole is connected to A3J4 on the driver board.

If you reattached the coil, then disconnect A3J4 and turn on power, does the coil fire?

If it does then you have a problem under the playfield. If it does not then something is telling it to fire. Did you verify that the outhole switch is not stuck closed?

#11 10 years ago

To test the diode you have to lift one side off of the coil. If you are doing that might as well just replace the 1 cent part. Put your DMM on diode test / Buzz continuity mode. And measure across the diode both ways / reversing leads. You should see no reading one way and 4xx - 7xx or .4 to .7 the other direction. If your diode was failed shorted then reading across the coil would show a dead short. Your diode could be open. If it is open it has damaged whatever driver board you have connected to it.

#12 10 years ago

If you haven't done them yet do the System 1 ground mods recommended by John Robertson.

http://www.flippers.com/gottlieb_ground_cures.html

#13 10 years ago
Quoted from Dengaman:

But the coil is ok, I did a test with the dmm and got 14,6 ohm. But I think the in404 (diode ???) on the coil is blown... But how can I test that?

Don't even bother testing it, Just replace the diode as they are very cheap to buy.

You must read this and do the ground mods

http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1/index.htm

and You need to check all the contacts especially on the harness from the CPU to the driver PCB as well as all the connectors from the driver PCB to the play field.
Also check A1J6 and A1J7 as these are usually the ones that have corroded contacts.
Connectors and contacts are one of the major issues with System 1 Pins.

I have repaired dozens of System 1 pins so here is some advice.
You have multiple issues. Stick with fixing one issue at a time, First get the game to game up. When that is fixed move on to the next issue. Otherwise you are spinning your wheels trying to solve multiple problems.

I also suggest you look into the Pascal replacement CPU since you have a new Power supply and driver PCB. The Board is Rock solid and adds a ton of Features severely lacking on the stock CPU PCB.

#14 10 years ago
Quoted from Patofnaud:

That's what I figured once you said you had disconnected coils..
To test the diode you should disconnect one end.. http://www.elexp.com/t_test.htm
Is the coil burnt and discolored?
When the coil was attached did it fire and stay on?
On a system 1, the driver for outhole is connected to A3J4 on the driver board.
If you reattached the coil, then disconnect A3J4 and turn on power, does the coil fire?
If it does then you have a problem under the playfield. If it does not then something is telling it to fire. Did you verify that the outhole switch is not stuck closed?

I think the diode is shorted because the coil isn't burnt or discolored. If i turn on the game the fuse next to the outhole begins to glow and burns after 3 or 4 sec. Sometimes it works ok, but burns when the coil is fired.

The coil doesn't fire at power on so no problem under the playfield and the Driver board is new (rottendog).

And i already did all the ground modifications. Soldered a lead to the capacitator on the MPU, Rottendog Driver board has a speacial ground point and the Rottendog Power Supply is already grounded by the L frame it is mounted on.
Tested all the leads with a DMM and all grounds work fine and nothing is corroded.

#15 10 years ago
Quoted from pdman:

You have multiple issues. Stick with fixing one issue at a time, First get the game to game up. When that is fixed move on to the next issue. Otherwise you are spinning your wheels trying to solve multiple problems.
I also suggest you look into the Pascal replacement CPU since you have a new Power supply and driver PCB. The Board is Rock solid and adds a ton of Features severely lacking on the stock CPU PCB.

Thanks for the advise ! And i am already doing one problem at the time because otherwise you get lost

about you advise for a pascal or Ni-wumpf CPU board, i want to keep the gameplay original and with both board they added additional gameplay and THAT is something is don't want.

And the game does boot up now, i can play the game, everything works ok, but still have to solve a few minor problems. But nothing involving the CPU board (Thank god).

#16 10 years ago
Quoted from Dengaman:

I think the diode is shorted because the coil isn't burnt or discolored. If i turn on the game the fuse next to the outhole begins to glow and burns after 3 or 4 sec. Sometimes it works ok, but burns when the coil is fired.

Nice work. 1N4004's are dirt cheap. You should keep a small bunch in your toolbox.

#17 10 years ago
Quoted from Dengaman:

about you advise for a pascal or Ni-wumpf CPU board, i want to keep the gameplay original and with both board they added additional gameplay and THAT is something is don't want.

To each his own but with the Pascal CPU you can keep everything stock just like the original Gottlieb CPU. But if you want you can change just about any parameter or function you want. Also bookkeeping is so much better and ditto for the Diagnostics you can run. Also on his 4 in 1 PCB for system 1 there is built in coil current monitoring that will kill power to the Coils to prevent them from burning out.

Plus Pascal is a great guy, always gets back to you promptly and always is willing to help and support His PCBs. Others here will also attest to the Pacal PCBs superiority versus stock Gottlieb system 1 PCBs and power supply.

So it looks like you have a coil problem still?
Is it the outhole coil? what fuse number is it and what is the fuse rated for and is it slo-blo or regular?
Like I said, just replace the diode and be done with it. Just make sure the diode is installed reverse polarity.
Pretty sure even radio shack carries 1N400x diodes.

Let us know how you make out.

#18 10 years ago

Problem is still not solved...

I changed the diode but still crap... The 0,5 A Slo-Blo next to the hole under the playfield blows, but very slowly. It start to glow very slowly and Burns after 5 sec...
Without the diode i measured the coil with a dmm and the A-5195 shows 12.1 ohm.

I checked the pins but everything is ok so the molex is fine.

What can it be?

#19 10 years ago

Did you install the diode correctly? Have to ask. Can you post a pic of the coil and diode?

#20 10 years ago

Something bothers me and I can't pinpoint it...

Quoted from Dengaman:

The 0,5 A Slo-Blo next to the hole under the playfield blows, but very slowly. It start to glow very slowly and Burns after 5 sec...

One your machine the Outhole circuit looks like this;

A3J4-6 >-- Blk/Red --> COIL ---> BLK/Orn --> 1/2SB fuse --> (Common power to all Sols)
---|>|-- (diode with band toward BLK/Orn)

Does this fuse blow after 5 seconds as soon as game is turned on or once you hit start?

If if blows 5 secs after power on then current is being drawn back toward the driver board due to a shorted or backward diode, or that the driver is mostly bad.

If you replaced the diode AND its in the correct way, (with the band toward the Blk/Orn wire) try this, take the Blk/red wire off of the coil and tape it up. Then using a short jumper wire, TAP (not clip) a wire from ground to where you took the wire off. If the coil works fine and the fuse does not blow, you have a bad driver. If the fuse does blow, you have a coil/diode problem still.

#21 10 years ago

My English is pretty good for a Dutch person but what do you mean by TAP?

And the colors are not completely the same but i can manage with your example

#22 10 years ago

TAP= Momentarily connect. Just long enough to fire the coil but not long enough to heat it up.

#23 10 years ago
Quoted from Patofnaud:

TAP= Momentarily connect. Just long enough to fire the coil but not long enough to heat it up.

Thought so but just wanted to be sure

But will try when i get home and will give feedback, for now THANKS !

#24 10 years ago
Quoted from Patofnaud:

One your machine the Outhole circuit looks like this;

A3J4-6 >-- Blk/Red --> COIL ---> BLK/Orn --> 1/2SB fuse --> (Common power to all Sols)
---|>|-- (diode with band toward BLK/Orn)

Done a lot of System 1 where the wire color/tracer are not the same as what is listed in the Service manuals. I will make a copy of the wiring page and then write down the colors in the wiring harness. I'd say at least 10 System 1 Pins had wiring that did not match the documentation.

Dengaman, can you post a pic of the coil and diode?

#25 10 years ago

Good point. Easy to say you want to ground the side of the coil NOT going to the fuse.

(Unless you want to see if the fuse really works)

#26 10 years ago

Sounds like the driver transistor has fried.

If the diode was originally open circuit then the back emf from the coil may have blown the transistor. With a new diode at least you have eliminated that from happening again.

Do you have a spare board you can swap in place?

Have you checked the fuse value?

#27 10 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Sounds like the driver transistor has fried.
If the diode was originally open circuit then the back emf from the coil may have blown the transistor. With a new diode at least you have eliminated that from happening again.
Do you have a spare board you can swap in place?
Have you checked the fuse value?

Fuse was the correct value, 0,5 A slo-blo... Old driver board was shot... Have a new driver board from Rottendog and checked al the transistor values like for example Q32, all the transistors give the right values.

I think the coil is fried but still gives the correct ohm value... Will de-solder it tomorrow.

#28 10 years ago
Quoted from Dengaman:

I think the coil is fried but still gives the correct ohm value... Will de-solder it tomorrow

Can you please post a pic of the coil with the diode connected?

#29 10 years ago

First I have an SS CE3K and love it.
Above it is said that as soon as you turn on the machine the out hole kicker fuse blows. There should be no flow though the fuse until a game is started and the ball is to kick out and the flow is momentary. So the fuse should not blow when you turn on the machine.

Have I miss-understood?

if you apply Ohms law the out hole coil will draw 1.9 amps, (V/R=I) 24 v / 12.3 OHMS = 1.95 Amps so it is easy to see that a ½ amp slow blow fuse will blow if the flow is too longer time. The question is why is power being supplied for a longer than required to this circuit?

From your previous post I don’t think it is the coil or diode issue (Unless the diode is the wrong way around). more like a driver transistor as WOZ points out, wiring fault or out hole switch .

PS DO NOT operate any coils with out a diode, the EMF can damage the CPU and driver boards.

#30 10 years ago

Please clarify where you are at troubleshooting as I may have missed stuff in previous messages:

Are you using the original Gottlieb MPU?
Does the outhole solenoid activate as soon as you power up or after 5 second delay?
Does the roto target and drop target operate correctly.
Did you resolve the sound problem?

#31 10 years ago
Quoted from Patofnaud:

Something bothers me and I can't pinpoint it...

One your machine the Outhole circuit looks like this;
A3J4-6 >-- Blk/Red --> COIL ---> BLK/Orn --> 1/2SB fuse --> (Common power to all Sols)
---|>|-- (diode with band toward BLK/Orn)
Does this fuse blow after 5 seconds as soon as game is turned on or once you hit start?
If if blows 5 secs after power on then current is being drawn back toward the driver board due to a shorted or backward diode, or that the driver is mostly bad.
If you replaced the diode AND its in the correct way, (with the band toward the Blk/Orn wire) try this, take the Blk/red wire off of the coil and tape it up. Then using a short jumper wire, TAP (not clip) a wire from ground to where you took the wire off. If the coil works fine and the fuse does not blow, you have a bad driver. If the fuse does blow, you have a coil/diode problem still.

Ok.. I did your test and disconnected the black/red (in my case blue/red) and kept the blk/orn on. Connected a wire to the backplate and tapped the coil and it fired well, so the coil is ok ! Fuse keeps intact also !

And to reference to your question, the fuse doesn't blow on power on, but when I select a new game and the outhole kicker gets the signal from the driver board / transistor.
On the OLD board it blew immediately, now on the NEW board after the driver board gives the signal.

#32 10 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Sounds like the driver transistor has fried.
If the diode was originally open circuit then the back emf from the coil may have blown the transistor. With a new diode at least you have eliminated that from happening again.
Do you have a spare board you can swap in place?
Have you checked the fuse value?

Driver transistor is ok, just put in a new driver board from Rottendog so the board is ok...
The fuse only blows when the board gives the signal. Otherwise the fuse is ok, and remains ok...

#33 10 years ago

Can you please post a pic of the coil with the diode connected?

image.jpgimage.jpg

#34 10 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Please clarify where you are at troubleshooting as I may have missed stuff in previous messages:
Are you using the original Gottlieb MPU?
Does the outhole solenoid activate as soon as you power up or after 5 second delay?
Does the roto target and drop target operate correctly.
Did you resolve the sound problem?

Original Gottlieb MPU.
Solenoid doesn't activate at all... Fuse blows when the driver board gives the signal to the solenoid, disconnected the wire and connected a wire to the backplate ant tapped the solenoid and it fires well...

#35 10 years ago

Which wire did you Disconnect from the coil?
The black or the lower wire?

#36 10 years ago
Quoted from pdman:

Which wire did you Disconnect from the coil?
The black or the lower wire?

The blue one on the picture... The gray/orange is the one from the fuse en stays connected... Then I make a connection on the backboard and tap the lug on the coil where the blue wire was connected and the coil fires. So therefor I know the coil is ok, the driver board is ok but where does it go wrong? Can it be a shortage in the blue/black wire back to the driver board? I don't think so because a shortage in that wire would result in a constant firing / pulled on coil... Am I right?

#37 10 years ago
Quoted from Dengaman:

Original Gottlieb MPU.
Solenoid doesn't activate at all... Fuse blows when the driver board gives the signal to the solenoid, disconnected the wire and connected a wire to the backplate ant tapped the solenoid and it fires well...

Sounds like the MPU board - let's hope it's not the spider chip Check out this article by John Robertson about diodes on System 1 driver boards.

On the MPU board, IC6 (7417) buffers the outhole signal from the U4 spider chip. If you use a logic probe on IC6 Pin 2 should pulse HI when the Outhole is activated.

#38 10 years ago

So the coil is OK . You ground one end and the coil fires. The driver PCB does the same when the appropriate transistor is turned on. On a Gottlieb Driver PCB it is Q32.
I have a feeling that when you start the game and the outhole coil gets turned on by the driver PCB it is staying on instead of getting a short pulse to eject the ball to the shooter lane. This could be caused by the CPU signal driving the Driver PCB transistor staying on.

Does the outhole Ball switch open and close OK? It's not stuck On or anything like that?

Try this, take the ball out of the game. Then start a game. What Happens? Does the coil fire or not or do you get an error message?

You could also have the ball in the outhole and while looking through the front door start a game and see if the coil stays energized or ejects the ball and returns to rest. I'm thinking it stays on.

Again a CPU issue or a stuck switch issue that the CPU thinks the outhole switch is On.

Have you run the diagnostic tests at all?
Run the switch test and activate the outhole switch Off and On several times to see if the switch functions properly.

If so run the Coil tests. With the play field up, activate the outhole coil and see what happens. Does the coil stay on or does it go on then off?

One more thing, does the CPU PCB have the correct PROM Installed?

#39 10 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Sounds like the MPU board - let's hope it's not the spider chip Check out this article by John Robertson about diodes on System 1 driver boards.
On the MPU board, IC6 (7417) buffers the outhole signal from the U4 spider chip. If you use a logic probe on IC6 Pin 2 should pulse HI when the Outhole is activated.

Why should the MPU be sot while it does what it needs to do... When the machine is turned on, the fuse remains ok, when I press the credit button to start a game the kicker should put the ball in the lane, that is the moment the fuse starts to glow and blows.
So therefor I can conclude that the Mpu and the driver board give the right signal to the solenoid/coil...

#40 10 years ago
Quoted from Dengaman:

So therefor I can conclude that the Mpu and the driver board give the right signal to the solenoid/coil...

The signal from the CPU may be staying ON or in a constant ON state, causing the driver PCB Transistor to stay on indefinitely, therefore causing excessive current through the coil over time , which then causes the fuse to blow.
Did you try what I wrote earlier to see if the outhole coil comes on momentarily or if if stays stuck on?

#41 10 years ago
Quoted from pdman:

So the coil is OK . You ground one end and the coil fires. The driver PCB does the same when the appropriate transistor is turned on. On a Gottlieb Driver PCB it is Q32.
I have a feeling that when you start the game and the outhole coil gets turned on by the driver PCB it is staying on instead of getting a short pulse to eject the ball to the shooter lane. This could be caused by the CPU signal driving the Driver PCB transistor staying on.
Does the outhole Ball switch open and close OK? It's not stuck On or anything like that?
Try this, take the ball out of the game. Then start a game. What Happens? Does the coil fire or not or do you get an error message?
You could also have the ball in the outhole and while looking through the front door start a game and see if the coil stays energized or ejects the ball and returns to rest. I'm thinking it stays on.
Again a CPU issue or a stuck switch issue that the CPU thinks the outhole switch is On.
Have you run the diagnostic tests at all?
Run the switch test and activate the outhole switch Off and On several times to see if the switch functions properly.
If so run the Coil tests. With the play field up, activate the outhole coil and see what happens. Does the coil stay on or does it go on then off?
One more thing, does the CPU PCB have the correct PROM Installed?

Lets start at the beginning, correct prom is installed (G) so it's for a close encounters of the third kind.

Checked the switch and the switch looks ok and works ok, at least I think because pinwiki says:

For switch test, the ball can remain in the outhole, as the outhole switch is not on the switch matrix, and not tested while in switch test.

BUT, with the ball in the hole and I press the credit button the fuse would blow. But when I get the ball out of the hole with my fingers the game starts normally and I can play the game...

For the coil test, when I do the test mode "13" all the lights go on and only the drop down target solenoid fires... That's the only one... Which ones should fire also? Pop bumpers, and rototarget aren't controlled by the CPU.

#42 10 years ago
Quoted from pdman:

The signal from the CPU may be staying ON or in a constant ON state, causing the driver PCB Transistor to stay on indefinitely, therefore causing excessive current through the coil over time , which then causes the fuse to blow.
Did you try what I wrote earlier to see if the outhole coil comes on momentarily or if if stays stuck on?

The coil doesn't pull at all, because it would pull, shoot the ball to the lane and stay on but nothing happens, the kickers isn't pulled on or anything, I checked the sleeve and that's clean..
Is it possible that is put the diode wrong on the coil and therefor switched the wires so in stead of pulling its pushing? (Don't think thats the problem but I'm thinking out loud.)

#43 10 years ago

OK your confusing me.
What happens when you shoot ball #1 and it drains into the outhole?
Does the coil fire or not?

#44 10 years ago
Quoted from pdman:

OK your confusing me.
What happens when you shoot ball #1 and it drains into the outhole?
Does the coil fire or not?

No... If I do a test:

I don't have the ball in the hole, already in the lane, I shoot the ball and it drains, the switch is activated and the driver board gives the signal and the fuse start to buzz, glow and blows.
The coil doesn't fire...

#45 10 years ago
Quoted from Dengaman:

Original Gottlieb MPU.
Solenoid doesn't activate at all... Fuse blows when the driver board gives the signal to the solenoid, disconnected the wire and connected a wire to the backplate ant tapped the solenoid and it fires well...

OK had to go back and reread the thread. So the outhole coil never fires at all, the fuse just blows?
Is that correct?

Try this . Disconnect the J4 connector from the Driver pcb. Start the game. Ground connector J4 pin 6.
Does the coil energize? Or does the fuse blow?

#46 10 years ago
Quoted from Dengaman:

Is it possible that is put the diode wrong on the coil and therefor switched the wires so in stead of pulling its pushing? (Don't think thats the problem but I'm thinking out loud.)

Diode looks ok in the pic. What diode are you using? In4001, 2,...?

Quoted from Dengaman:

For the coil test, when I do the test mode "13" all the lights go on and only the drop down target solenoid fires... That's the only one... Which ones should fire also? Pop bumpers, and rototarget aren't controlled by the CPU.

In coil test you should be able to energize the drop target reset coils, the chimes or sounds on the sound board pcb, but not pop bumpers or sling shots. Not sure on the roto target but probably so.

#47 10 years ago

What does solenoid 7 on your game control. Looking at a general wire run list, it says the wiring to the outhole coil should be Blue/Red and solenoid 7 should be Blue/Black.

Is it possible the wires are reversed?
Did the outhole ever work at all or has it never worked since you got the pin?

#48 10 years ago
Quoted from pdman:

What does solenoid 7 on your game control. Looking at a general wire run list, it says the wiring to the outhole coil should be Blue/Red and solenoid 7 should be Blue/Black.
Is it possible the wires are reversed?
Did the outhole ever work at all or has it never worked since you got the pin?

The wiring to the outhole is blue/red... So that's ok...

#49 10 years ago
Quoted from pdman:

OK had to go back and reread the thread. So the outhole coil never fires at all, the fuse just blows?
Is that correct?
Try this . Disconnect the J4 connector from the Driver pcb. Start the game. Ground connector J4 pin 6.
Does the coil energize? Or does the fuse blow?

Did your test, no fuse blows when I ground pin 6 form the J4 connector... So problem would actually be the MPU board?

#50 10 years ago
Quoted from pdman:

Diode looks ok in the pic. What diode are you using? In4001, 2,...?

I use a IN4004...

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