(Topic ID: 208331)

Gottlieb System 1 Genie can’t retain high scores


By Pinballflare

2 years ago



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#1 2 years ago

Just finished restoring a Gottlieb System 1 Genie from 1979. The game works and plays great however it does not retain the high scores. It always shows the last score as the high score when the game is on. Once shut off , the last score is not retained either. I checked for power at pin22 on z22 and it is present. I have swapped a number of components from a spare board I have with no change in behavior. I unfortunately do not know the condition of that parts on that board, however I can at least say there is no change. I swapped z22, z5, c24, and u4; the board does not have battery damage. Lastly I did follow the trouble shooting in the Gottlieb manual and entered scores for book keeping 7-10 and they were not retained. Lastly, I know the one cap on the power supply can be suspect however I rebuild the power supply with all new caps. I am pretty much at a loss, so any additional thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

#2 2 years ago

Did you measure pin 22 of Z22 *with the machine powered off?*

#3 2 years ago

I will be following this.
I have a Solar Ride that does the same thing. But add in the fact that it wont hold more then one credit either.
I have already put in a new 5101 chip and battery holder but no luck.

#4 2 years ago

Yes, I measured pin 22 of z22 with the power off and it checked out. I think the more telling issue though is that the high score is not retained game to game. If you play and get 95000 the game says high score to date is 95000. The very next game without shutting off the machine you score 30000, it now says high score to date is 30000.

#5 2 years ago

Did you zero out the complete audit memory, after you removed/changed battery???

In what position is your Dip-Switch 21??

Also check all Dip-Switches, these are often old and troublemakers, try moving all switches up and down a few times.

#6 2 years ago
Quoted from Arcade:

I will be following this.
I have a Solar Ride that does the same thing. But add in the fact that it wont hold more then one credit either.
I have already put in a new 5101 chip and battery holder but no luck.

5101 Did you say? There is an NVRAM for that. If the old RAM is already in a socket, then it is an easy swap out. http://pinitech.com/products/5101_nvram.php

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from Pinballflare:

Yes, I measured pin 22 of z22 with the power off and it checked out. I think the more telling issue though is that the high score is not retained game to game. If you play and get 95000 the game says high score to date is 95000. The very next game without shutting off the machine you score 30000, it now says high score to date is 30000.

It sounds like the CPU cannot either WRITE to the 5101 or is getting all zeroes back when it reads it. It only bothers to do a write when somethings has changed. So, if you finish a game, it has to pull the previous high score (which might be coming back as 000,000), compare it to your score, and then only save it if its larger in value. Then repeat the process at the end of the next game. Drop a coin, it has to update the bookkeeping value stored. In other words, the NVRAM itself is not being used all the time like on other Manufacturer's systems. The Sys 1 CPU uses its internal memory most of the time and then only does a save or retrieve when necessary (I found this out while working on my Split Data bus 5101 NVRAM module. You might get different results if you try to read the bookkeeping values or enter a new free game threshold, and then exit that with the slam switch (which doesn't remove power from the ICs) as opposed to powering down and back up again.

So, you would have to monitor control lines from the spider chip(s) and then see if they are getting through the various gates to end up at the 5101 pins themselves. A bit harder to probe since the inputs and outputs of the Spider chips are at +5V and -12VDC swings.

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

5101 Did you say? There is an NVRAM for that. If the old RAM is already in a socket, then it is an easy swap out. http://pinitech.com/products/5101_nvram.php

This NVRAM does NOT work in Gottlieb System1!!!

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from german-pinball:

This NVRAM does NOT work in Gottlieb System1!!!

Thanks. That is what I was told by the NVram people as well.

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from german-pinball:

This NVRAM does NOT work in Gottlieb System1!!!

Boo!!

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from german-pinball:

This NVRAM does NOT work in Gottlieb System1!!!

Any reason for this? Ahh...I see. Technical reason.

Quoted from CactusJack:

In other words, the NVRAM itself is not being used all the time like on other Manufacturer's systems. The Sys 1 CPU uses its internal memory most of the time and then only does a save or retrieve when necessary (I found this out while working on my Split Data bus 5101 NVRAM module.

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Any reason for this? Ahh...I see. Technical reason.

On Gottlieb System 1 MPU boards, Gottlieb used the separate Data In and Data Out Pins on the 5101 while others simply tied them together and used them on Bi-directional bus communications like most other memory devices. In those other applications, using the RAMTRON Fram products are fine. But in this case, I had to not only split the bidirectional data lines but also use the SIMTEK style NVRAM due to how the MPU accesses the memory cells.

I laid out a NVRAM version that will work with System 1 MPU boards. Wayne at Pinitech has a few of them available if you contact him directly (he doesn't have them on his website).

For the most part, so many others are just happy with using a Super Cap or Coin battery and keeping the original 5101 memory chip. My games often sit un-powered for extended periods of time so I wanted an alternative solution.

#13 2 years ago

Ok.
I am not trying to hijack this thread, but since we have the same issue I hope the original poster does not mind.
So far I have installed a new 5101 chip. New cap at c24 and checked for steady 5 volts at pin 22 of Z22 as well as pins 7 and 9 of Z2. I also reset memory on settings 1-10.
But the game refuses to remember high scores or hold credits even though 5 volts are perfect across all test points.

#14 2 years ago

I don’t mind at all. You seem to be finding the same things I am. I replaced u4 and according to the pin repair site it says u4 and u5 have to be matched pairs. My original board was not but I thought I would try it and matched u4 and u5 per the pin repair website. Unfortunately no change. This is slowly driving me crazy.

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from Arcade:

Ok.
I am not trying to hijack this thread, but since we have the same issue I hope the original poster does not mind.
So far I have installed a new 5101 chip. New cap at c24 and checked for steady 5 volts at pin 22 of Z22 as well as pins 7 and 9 of Z2. I also reset memory on settings 1-10.
But the game refuses to remember high scores or hold credits even though 5 volts are perfect across all test points.

But how much voltage do you have going to the 5101 when power is off?

#16 2 years ago

I can answer for me. I have the 4.2 volts or so, but the problem isn’t keeping the high score, the problem is it is not writing the high score to the ram. When going into audits, everything is 000000. I would set all the scores and high score in 7-10 use the slam switch to get out of the audits then go directly back in and 7-10 is 000000 again. Every game played indicates you beat the high game since it keeps the high game at 000000 and knocks three times. And it doesnt matter if you beat the previous game because it keeps comparing to 000000.

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from Pinballflare:

I can answer for me. I have the 4.2 volts or so, but the problem isn’t keeping the high score, the problem is it is not writing the high score to the ram. When going into audits, everything is 000000. I would set all the scores and high score in 7-10 use the slam switch to get out of the audits then go directly back in and 7-10 is 000000 again. Every game played indicates you beat the high game since it keeps the high game at 000000 and knocks three times. And it doesnt matter if you beat the previous game because it keeps comparing to 000000.

Exact same issue here Pinballflare.
Every score I get becomes the high score for the day.

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

I laid out a NVRAM version that will work with System 1 MPU boards. Wayne at Pinitech has a few of them available if you contact him directly (he doesn't have them on his website).

I'll have some of the Gottlieb System 1 NVRAM Modules built up early this week and get them available on the shopping cart. Behind on where I expected to be after getting rocked by a cold right after the New Year... finally 100% and getting my stamina back. What a pain. Life happens

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

I'll have some of the Gottlieb System 1 NVRAM Modules built up early this week and get them available on the shopping cart. Behind on where I expected to be after getting rocked by a cold right after the New Year... finally 100% and getting my stamina back. What a pain. Life happens

Great news.
Hopefully it can solve this crazy issue.
Will this come with the two needed 11 pin SIP sockets?
Can't wait to give it a try.

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from Arcade:

Will this come with the two needed 11 pin SIP sockets?
Can't wait to give it a try.

It'll come with a 22p .400 dual wipe socket. I may have some sip socket strips around if you prefer.

#21 2 years ago

Have you ever thought about trying another 5101 ram? There are many conterfeit parts of 5101 on the market.

#22 2 years ago
Quoted from acebathound:

It'll come with a 22p .400 dual wipe socket. I may have some sip socket strips around if you prefer.

That is fine.
I just noticed on Marco’s site that some NVrams came with them.
As long as it fits is all I care about. Lol
Thanks again for doing this.

#23 2 years ago

I got my 5101 ram from the guy that is aways set up in the little room at Pinburgh/ReplayFX.

#24 2 years ago

FYI, the Gottlieb Sys 1 compatible NVRAM is not going to fix a board unless the only thing wrong is the 5101 CMOS Ram.

The module uses the same read, write and enable signals as a 5101.

#25 2 years ago

My Joker poker with NO ram or module plugged into the 5101 socket will:

Power up with zero credits
Power up with a HSTD of 000,000
Not hold entered replay levels when entered and then exited by using Slam.
Will go from 0 credits to 1 Credit with coin drop but will not advance past 1 with further coin drops.

So, it appears your board is not enabling the Ram when accessed. If it was enabling, but not writing, you would at least get back the random garbage that most 5101s will power up with when not cleared previously.

#26 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

My Joker poker with NO ram or module plugged into the 5101 socket will:
Power up with zero credits
Power up with a HSTD of 000,000
Not hold entered replay levels when entered and then exited by using Slam.
Will go from 0 credits to 1 Credit with coin drop but will not advance past 1 with further coin drops.
So, it appears your board is not enabling the Ram when accessed. If it was enabling, but not writing, you would at least get back the random garbage that most 5101s will power up with when not cleared previously.

Well that does not sound promising.
You may be right. Hate to spend $50 on the chip but then have to buy a replacement board anyway.

#27 2 years ago

Well after much frustration, I decided to sit down and scrub the schematics for what it could be. Z1 the 4081 chip was the issue. As soon as I replaced that, I could go in set the replays and the high score. Double checked it actually worked by setting some high scores on the game and it is fully functional. Hope this helps you with you issue too Arcade.

#28 2 years ago

Awesome.
Where did you get the 4081 chip from?
This sounds very promising.

#29 2 years ago

I actually had a spare board that had acid damage so I pulled it from there. I usually get my chips from Great Plains though and they seem to have them in stock. Hope it works for you. Thanks to everyone that provided ideas and support.

#30 2 years ago

Note z1 is a 4081 chip for anyone reading this.

#31 2 years ago
Quoted from Pinballflare:

Note z1 is a 4081 chip for anyone reading this.

Thanks.
I edited the post where I transposed the middle numbers to avoid any confusion for others in the future.

#32 2 years ago

Got the IC chip and some other parts in a cart at Great Plains.
But of course with my luck they are closed till Friday. Lol.
So it will be a couple of weeks till my stuff arrives.

1 week later
#34 2 years ago

Great news on the NVRAM.

My Z1 IC chip finally arrive today after having Great Plains closed for a week and then getting lost at the post office on top of that. lol
I will get it installed and see if it fixes my issue like it did for pinballflare.

#35 2 years ago

Well I pulled my board out to change Z1 but noticed that I had an odd looking resistor that was clear as glass next to it.
First time I have seen a clear resistor.
So I got my meter out and put it on diode mode. It beeped like it was shorted out as did the one to it's left and it's right side.
Now I am by no means an expert, but is that how they should behave and look?
I took a photo below.
Did not bother to replace Z1 as the backside of the board where these 3 resistors/diodes are located is very black.
Think I should just replace the Z1 chip and see what happens or is that glass looking thing suspect? I can't read that part number on the online schematic but it has R156 and R157 to it's left and right.

#36 2 years ago

That is CR38 , a 3.5v zenor. You might need to lift one leg and recheck. It should read like a normal diode.

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

That is CR38 , a 3.5v zenor. You might need to lift one leg and recheck. It should read like a normal diode.

Thanks for the info.
I am going to replace the Z1 this afternoon as planned.
No need to create new issues in my head that may not even exist. Lol

#38 2 years ago

Had time at work so I replaced the Z1 chip.
Got these cool inline sockets that you can cut to size. No more having to stock lots of different size sockets. These take care of anything and fit in my tool kit easily.
Simply genius!!!
How have I been living without these. Lol
Anyway here are a few picks of the process.
(Middle two pics got out of order)
Can’t test it till later tonight though.

DF388E5D-2745-412B-9B57-7032200990B5 (resized).jpeg
7F17DEE1-523E-47CF-B123-7F4893291E0B (resized).jpeg
21116C80-D8C9-41EE-BCB1-DC111CC3B9EF (resized).jpeg
E5EF127D-11B5-4040-9941-A450D20A729D (resized).jpeg

#39 2 years ago

And........No dice.
Game still refuses to keep high scores or rack up credits.
May have to break down and get a Pascal board and sell this one.
Hate to do that though.

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