(Topic ID: 281130)

Gottlieb Sys 3 boot issues, schematic help

By Sonora70

3 years ago


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  • 31 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by donjagra
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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#1 3 years ago

Trying to get my Cue Ball Wizard up and running. I have some display issues I have posted in another thread. I'm not sure if just my display board is out or if both my CPU and my display boards are out. Its my understanding the CPU will not boot if the display controller board is out(not working)?

I'm trying to learn how to read schematics and work through these boards.

Here's what happened:

I was using my logic probe to test pin 40 on U1 of the cpu because my light is flickering with intermittent stops. I read in another post that this would indicate a bad watch dog circuit. While in the process I shorted pins 39 and 40 and the CPU instantly booted up and the game went into attract mode. I actually did this a couple times and it's consistent.

I began reading the schematic to try to determine why shorting these two pins would make this occur. According to the picture of the schematic attached should pin 39 be 5 volts? When tested I am only getting 2.4 volts. Could it be that the U1 chip is bad if pin 39 is not 5 volts? My thinking is maybe when it is given the extra voltage it is allowing the cpu to boot. Also, Should pin 39 be 5 volts if pin 38 is 5 volts, plus R4 is showing 5 volts? When I check voltage at R4 I'm getting 2.4 volts on one side and 5v on the other. Hopefully I haven't confused anyone. Thanks so much for any help!!!

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#3 3 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

What is the voltage reading on the 2430 battery? The watchdog circuit on these boards will prevent booting if the battery voltage is low. [quoted image]

3.2 volts

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

I was hoping it would be an easy fix to swap a battery, but at 3.2v it's obviously new. The 65C02 chip is a 5v chip and if there is a leg that is reading at 2.4v, it's highly suspect. If you follow pin 39 out on the schematic, it shows as needing a +5v.
Did you say it boots normally if you jumper it?

yes. If I jump pins 39 and 40 on U1 the game beeps and the CPU boots into attract mode and I get a proper blinking light. (obviously the display control board remains a solid light with no flashing). I'm getting a definite 2.4 volts off pin 39. Am I reading the schematics correctly to see that it should be 5v?

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

First warning: Do not disconnect the display with power turned on. This will kill U8G on the dot controller, a GAL that will cost your $20-25.
The CPU will (kind of) "boot" with a dead or missing dot controller, but it won't really do anything other than rapidly pulse it's LED, indicating that it is expecting to be talking to the dot controller, but for whatever reason, it can't.
Pin 2 and pin 38 on the 65C02 are tied high via the 3K pull-up resistor at R7. One of the chip select signals (CS1) for both 6522s is also pulled high with this resistor tied to 5V. Normal stuff.
Pin 39 is (phi 2), which is the clock signal that is phase shifted from phi 1 at pin 37. A clock signal will read somewhere between logic zero and logic one (0 to 5VDC....really between TTL logic 0 or about .8VDC and TTL logic 1 or about 2.7VDC) as it is pulsing constantly. A logic probe (or oscilloscope) is a better tool to test a clock signal. The clock signal at pin 37 depends on the external crystal circuit and the 74HC74. The clock signal at pin 39 is produced internally by the 65C02.
Shorting pin 39 to pin 40 didn't provide "extra voltage". When pin 39 dipped to logic 0, it pulled the reset line low with it. Then when you removed the probe, that allowed the reset signal to return high. The processor is reset upon a transition from logic 0 to logic 1.
What does a pull-up resistor do?
Google is your friend here, but in short, a pull-up resistor holds a signal high until a device in the circuit provides a path to ground, causing the signal to go low. Most everything in a digital computer works by pulling signals to ground. There is no such thing as pulling a signal that is grounded to high. If the circuit contains a path to ground, then the signal will always be low (logic zero). Only by removing this path to ground, will the pull-up resistor tied to 5V return the signal to logic high.
The message you are seeing is generally caused by a low battery or a problem with the 8 pin DS1210 immediately below it. Sometimes, that lithium battery leaks and corrodes the DS1210 causing it to fail. My preferred solution is to remove the battery and the DS1210 and install a PiniTech NVRAM module. Should you decide this is the way to go, send the board to a pro. System 3 boards are incredibly fragile. You won't regret paying a professional to repair your board correctly.
I think that does it. I hope this helps.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

I understand "some" of this, lol. Thanks for the info! I may take a look at the battery tomorrow and decide whether or not to replace it. I'll report back.

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

If you suspect the watchdog circuit - let us know what you get on pins 1, 2 and 3 of U16 and pins 4, 5 and 6 of U14.

U16 voltages
pin 1. 5.09v
pin 2 .029 v
pin 3. 5.10

U14
pin 4. 5.10
pin 5. 5.10
pin 6. 5.10

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Tail end of reset logic (U13B) is working. Seen as high at pin 4 of U14.
Watchdog timer combined with watchdog timer enable is working. Not trying to reset cpu, seen as high at pin 5 of U14.
CPU is not being held reset, seen as high at pin 6 of U14.
Watchdog timer is enabled (enabled when high, disabled when low). Seen as high at pin 1 of U16.
Watchdog timers are not trying to reset cpu, seen as low at pin 2 of U16.
Watchdog timer combined with watchdog enable is not trying to reset cpu as seen as high at pin 3 of U16 (same as pin 5 of U14).
So the above voltages are good and this says the cpu is being allowed to run.
It doesn't say the watchdog timer is fully working but it does appear to be.
CPU pins 39 and 40 of the CPU are fine. I recommend not shorting the two together in the future.
What these readings do not tell us - are manual reset and powerup-reset are fully working?
Starting with manual reset -- does pushing reset button make any difference?
Push reset button - while holding reset button, measure pin 4 of U13 - does it go low? If it goes low then manual reset (U13A/U13B) is fine
U21C is powerup-reset, We will test U21C next time.
Did you look at what Chris pointed out above in post #5?
Start looking around U6. Any trace of corrosion? Measure voltages around U6 when machine is turned on - pins 1, 2 and 8 for starters.
then measure pins 1 and 2 when machine is turned off.

No change when reset button is pressed. I checked voltage and pin 4 of U13 goes low when the reset button is pressed.

With machine on
U6
Pin 1. 5v
Pin 2 3.3v
Pin 8. 5v.

Machine off

U6
Pin 1. 3.3v
Pin 2. 3.3v

Board looks clean around U6

Question, the led on my dot controller board is lit solid, no flashing. Could that be the reason my cpu led is flickering and not booting? I’m getting mixed information the more I read.

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Reset circuit is working.
U6 is fine as far as power control to the RAM. Just inspect him carefully for white corrosion particularly around seam.
From here - it would be plug and probe testing for me.
Could check display board's reset. Pin 6 of U7 to see if it is being allowed to run.
Would also be interesting to see which part of watch dog reset is triggering as mentioned in first post.
Is there activity on both pins 9 and 11 of U13 on CPU board?

Yes. Pins 9 and 11 of U13 are “active”. There is voltage pulsing between 1.5 and 2 volts.

Pin 6 at U7 is staying at .05 v. With the logic probe is is pulsing for approx 2 secs, stops then pulses again.

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Sounds like the CPU's reset is cycling due to the watch dog timers expiring. So something isn't running right. Could be due to a lot of things. Now it's time for some detailed looking - time to call for Chris' repair service. See post #5.

Will do. Thanks for trying to help me through it!

#20 3 years ago

I’ll replace them and post results.

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

The typical guidance is to replace those caps with 10uf caps. This changes the interval of the watchdog timer.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Changed the caps out before I saw this post. I replaced with 1uf 50v caps. No change. Should I try the 10 uf caps?

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