(Topic ID: 178592)

Gottlieb Super Soccer driving me nuts - please help...?

By 4Max

7 years ago



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#1 7 years ago

Hi all,

I spent the whole weekend on one final issue with this machine, and cannot fix it...and of course have now made it worse. Not used to working on 4 player Gottlieb's and while I have the schematic, the advance player unit, plus the large relay bank, are scary!

Background: This was a project machine. I got everything working, so that it played a complete, correct game for 1, 2 or 3 players.

If you tried to add a 4th player, the PB4 (player 4) relay pulled in correctly, but no player 4 light came on, and at the end of player 3 ball 1, it just skipped to ball 2 player 1.

I'm sure there was more than one issue here, because I thought the easiest test was the player 4 lamp. The lamp works as it comes on for Game Over (XB), as per the schematic, surely just close the switch on PB4 that has Yellow and Black/Red
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But the only yellow on PB4 is yellow with a green. IMG_4081a (resized).jpgIMG_4081a (resized).jpg
When I jumped them, no lamp. I jumpered the other switch that "should" be closed - still no lamp. Hmmm

Although it would not fix the above, I noticed that the swiches close nicely when the relay back is flipped up, but do not when they are back in the seated position.

Question 1: does anyone have a PB4 - are these switches missing a space or something?

IMG_4079a (resized).jpgIMG_4079a (resized).jpgI have tried adjusting them for hours so that the are "really" closed when PB4 is engaged, but when I put the bank into its seated position the bar pushes a little and the switches are then not made.

I know Clay's guide talks about this - but I really cannot get them to stay closed when the bank is down - any thoughts?

Of course, I thought I could adjust the relay bank (there are two screws on each side), tried moving it around a little, no joy, put it back, and now:

Press Credit button once - all ok (can play a complete 3 ball game)

But, press credit button again, instead of moving to player 2, the game goes through its full reset back to ready for player 1 again - ARRRRH!

I am very sorry for the long post, always a fine line between too much and too little info.

Summary, working backwards:

1. Anything obvious to check that now causes it to reset when pressing credit button twice, rather than adding player 2?

2. Any advice on the lower PB4 switches, getting them to remain closed when relay sitting in locked down position?

3. If I get those fixed, then I can look at why no Player 4 is being added

thanks!!!!

#2 7 years ago

You need to check the S relay logic. I think the only way a reset occurs when pressing the credit button is if the Start relay is activated, which shouldn't happen if the machine is functioning normally after the credit button is pressed the first time.

#3 7 years ago

Hi 4Max
My Far Out also has the huge Relay-Bank and these PB2-, PB3-, PB4-Relays. A fully functioning Super Soccer / Far Out: We toggle-on the pin and the QB-Game-Over-Relay and the ZB-First-Ball-Relay "plunge / move". We start a game and in the Reset-Procedure the big arm on the Relay-Bank does actuate and resets ALL the relays mounted in the bank. The first ball for Player-1 is kicked over to the Shooter Alley.

IF (if) the player launches the ball: He soon will make points - this makes the ZB-Relay "plunge / move". From NOW on - pressing the Replay- / Credit-Button will start a NEW*** game for ONE Player.
IF (if) the player does NOT launch the ball - but he presses the Replay- / Credit-Button: The PB2-Relay (in the Relay-Bank) does "plunge / move" - so a second player can participate.

NEW***: Think of player(s) saying: This game is a lousy game --- do NOT want to play the remaining balls --- lets start a NEW game.

Look at Your ZB-First-Ball-Relay --- when the big arm resets the Relay-Bank:
AAA: The ZB-Relay is resetted and STAYS resetted.
BBB: The ZB-Relay is resetted BUT immediately afterward: It faulty "plunges / moves".

Look at my JPG - You have AAA: I suspect the Make-and-Brake-Switch on ZB-Relay to be faulty --- faulty let the SB1-Relay pull-in (instead of correct let the PB2-Relay "plunge / move").
You have BBB: It may be a mechanical problem as the ZB-Relay does not hold in beeing resetted. It may be an electrical problem (see my encircled red stuff) - one or more of these switches are faulty.

Look at the resetting of the Relay-Bank and write about having AAA or having BBB, greetings Rolf

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#4 7 years ago

Excellent info, Rolf - thanks! Yes the make/break on the ZB was not good enough - now fixed and the game starts correctly for 1-3 players.

I am back to the player 4 issue (PB4 pulls in correctly after 4th press of credit button, but the game plays just a 3 player game)

I checked that all the switches on PB4 - and all make and break as they should.

I called the previous owner, who told me he had to rebuild a lot of the relay bank as it was severely damaged when he got the machine 7 years ago. He said he's not sure if he ever got player four working, as there were only 3 in his family so he stopped there, (kids and pinball repair!)

So, I think there may be some weird wires, or something missing, that would be very hard to figure out.

Much though it pains me, I may just accept defeat and accept its a three player machine with some spare score reels!

thanks again, Rolf!

#5 7 years ago

Hi 4Max
great - You could fix an Make-and-Brake-Switch on a relay mounted in the Relay-Bank, congratulations.
Good - You are willing to take the pin as an 3-Player-Pin. But - lets try - maybe we succeed.
I write my text as if I would have the problems on my Far Out. I bet the switches are the same in Your Super Soccer - probably some difference in "color of wires". Take my text and Your schematics - look-up and adapt my writing to "Super Soccer".

I have problems with the PB4-4th-Player-Relay (mounted in the Relay-Bank). The list of relays in the schematics tells me: PB4 - 2A, 2B (, Zero C) means 2 switches of type-A means two Normally-Open-Switches, 2 switches of type-B means two Normally-Closed-Switches, Zero switches of type-C means no Make-and-Brake-Switch.

I look in the pin - do I see the switches - do they actuate as they should ? Is a contact-point broken-away from a switchblade ? Has a drop of solder fallen and faulty always makes contact ? Is one of the short studs (having the wire soldered-on) - is a short stud bent and making faulty-always contact ? Are the wires truely soldered-on ? (I grab each wire and gently pull a bit).

I search the whole schematics to find the PB4-Relay- (my Far Out) TWO N.O.- and TWO N.C.-Switches. See my first JPG - I show two switches (one is for Number-Match at end of a game, one is to hinder "starting a game for a fifth player". Look at my second JPG - near the blue letter "C" - a switch needed for stepping the Player-Unit. The last switch is for to light "FOUR Player game" - I do not show it here (((You know where to find it in Your schematics))).

I write down the switches AND the color of the soldered-on wires (on each switch). I look in the pin - do I see switches with wires and "color in the pin" matches the "description" ?

FIRST You should fix the "lights in the Backbox".

I look at the second JPG - I imagine a ONE-Player-Game at end of Player(-1)-Ball-1 - "red line" has permanent connection. On the "green line": The P-Add-Player-Unit-RELAY is pulling steady, the Score-Motor makes a turn of 120 degrees, Score-Motor-Switch-1A closes five times in that turn. In a ONE-Player-Game there a FOUR steps needed - the Add-Player-Unit-COIL gets current for the first step through matching SCM-2C (matching with SCM-1A) so the first stepping is done through my "blue D". The Player-Unit STEPS this first stepping - P1 is no longer active but P2 is active (due to the stepping) so the second pulse (SCM-1A) runs through my "blue A" --- etc. "blue B" then "blue C". The pin has made four steps and is ready for Player (1) Ball-2.

In a TWO-Player-Game at end of Player-1-Ball-1: A step through "blue D" - the Player-Unit comes to "activated P2(G)" --- because PB2 is OPEN (TWO-Player-Game): NO stepping through my "blue A" - so the Player-Unit STAYS on P2 - no stepping through "blue B", no stepping through "blue C". Want to try to figure out what exactly happens in a TWO-Player-Game at end of "Player-2-Ball-1" - the pin must do THREE steps ...

In a functioning FOUR-Player-Game: ONLY "blue D" steps do happen. I believe that (Far Out means Super Soccer) there is an unwanted connection through "blue C".

I must admit: sometimes I am rude to a pin --- when I want to unsolder a wire - but it is hard to get at (((how in the world can I solder-on again when I have finished my work ???))): I take a scissor and I CUT the wire about (2) 3 to 5 inches away from the solder-lug - both end have insulation of the original color.
K-Mart and such stores, Automotive Department, Car-Electrics sell nice male and female plugs - to CRAMP-on with a plier (very handy, very practical, easy to do). I take a cigarette lighter and burn away some insulation of the "cut wire" and mount an male and an female plug --- NOW I easily can have connection or can have "NO connection".

So I would CUT wire-white-orange (my second JPG, encircled orange) - start a FOUR-Player-game and look what happens (of course: AFTER I made the PB4-Relay pull).
(((If no luck: I'd the cut "encircled brown, encircled rosa/pink" and look what happens)))

I do agree on "a running THREE-Player-Pin is a 'good' pin" - You might have it "as is" for quite a while - and maybe LATER want to dig-in into "problem of FOUR-Player-Game" - no need to hurry, greetings Rolf

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#6 7 years ago

Well, Rolf, you inspired me to have a go at fixing. I started with the P4 lamp, steps in case (however unlikley) someone else has this issue:

1. Found the wire connected to the P4 lamp itself
2. Traced that to the back box jones plug (yellow wire)
3. Tested between PB4 switch and the yellow wire, and found the switch on PB4 that connects to the yellow wire
4. But the other side of that was not connected to the 6 volts coming out of the 15amp fuse
5. So found a switch on PB3 that was connected to the 6 volts
6. Run small wire from the 6v on PB3 to the one needed on PB4

And, Hey Presto! Not only did P4 light at the correct time, it played a 4 player game correctly. Woo hoo!

(Its a pretty cool game with the back box ball animation, plus double spinners, kick out holes and the mystery bonus kick out hole)

Thanks, Rolf.

#7 7 years ago

Hi 4Max
great You could fix the Four (Player) fault. (((Still: a 4-Player-Game fully running on 3 Players is a good pin))).

I tried to look-up on my "Far Out schematics" what You mentioned in post-6. "Fourth Player Coin Light" ? --- and then the pin plays a FOUR-Player-Game, hmm - surprise. I do not see a solution in the schematics so I guess "by working on the 'PB4' " You did clean contacts neaded in the stepping (?). I gladly accept a pleasing "mystery / wonder".

I do remember the Super Soccer from the late 70ies (arcade rooms) - do I remember correct: Left Eject-Hole rewards "as many 1000 points - as many bonus already made". My abilities to make replays by the Score-Drums were not good at that time - so the Super Soccer did not make it into "my favorites" - so I did not buy myself a Super Soccer (I call myself beeing "NOT a collector - but a Nostalgic"), greetings Rolf

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