Gottlieb Stock Car 1970 - Armature issue

https://stores.staples.ca/search?q=calgary

Hello friends,

Looking for help with my Gottlieb stock car from 1970. Almost got it all fixed up just one small issue. On the startup the Armature for the sequence bank reset does not fire. If #11 is closed it will fire (which closes and activates when all numbers are out and ball has been played - which is correct) but does not fire on start of game to reset all the number switches and relays. According to the schematic the #11 should be open on start. IMG_8474 (resized).JPG Any help would be appreciated.

#2 6 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,257

At the risk of stating the obvious, buy a new schematic and have it scanned at Staples for $2 or Kinkos for $6.

#3 6 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Springfield, MA

7y 63,550 3,312 6

There is generally a switch to the side or under the bank that fires the reset. Also check the instruction card. But as noted by HowardR, a clean schematic scan would really help.

Stock car (resized).jpg

#4 6 years ago

JMB

jmbit

Inactive member

I tried a scan this time.

scan (resized).jpg

#5 6 years ago

JMB

jmbit

Inactive member

It does fire the main reset on the control bank, just not the sequence bank reset coil (Red connected and White connected). Only when the switch #11 is closed on the control bank it will fire. But #11 should only be closed when lights are all off (sequence is complete). This would make the sequence bank reset coil fire. It should also fire at start of game to reset all lights which it doesn't.

I almost think something should make the number #11 relay to switch on causing it to drop in the reset sequence closing that #11 main switch which would then activate the sequence reset bank coil.

#6 6 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,257

OP
Quoted from jmbit:
hopefully this helps a little bit better.

If you'd like to know whether your hope resulted in a better outcome, click on the image in your post.

Make it easy for us to help you!!!

And if you'd like *me* to help you, drive to one of the 10 Staples stores in Calgary and spend the $2 (US) to get a high quality scan.

#7 6 years ago

JMB

jmbit

Inactive member

HowardR I've updated with a scan, seems to look better than a picture of it. I'll have to purchase a new schematic, it takes several weeks from Marco's pinball to ship me a new one due to customs and the way they ship through a third party to Canada. Great company to deal with just takes time! Any suggestions to pay for a downloadable copy?

#8 6 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Springfield, MA

7y 63,550 3,312 6

If you look on the instruction card it notes that ball return resets completed sequence. Is SB1 or 2 the reset?

#9 6 years ago

JMB

jmbit

Inactive member

currieddog I hear what your saying, I'm going to look into that today. If the "wow" is lit meaning it's in the bonus and #11 relay is kicked then it resets when it hits the ball return. So maybe that ties into start of game as well. I will get a proper full scan done too of the schematic in the next day or so. Thanks for the ideas!

#10 6 years ago

JMB

jmbit

Inactive member

SB1 and SB2 all are functioning as per the schematic.

#11 6 years ago

JMB

jmbit

Inactive member

2018-3-13-8-32-5 (resized).jpg

#12 6 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Springfield, MA

7y 63,550 3,312 6

Whoa, that's pretty rough. Have you checked the M/B on DB? And what about score motor sw. 1A, 1C, and 3B?

#13 6 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,257

OP
Quoted from jmbit:
It does fire the main reset on the control bank, just not the sequence bank reset coil (Red connected and White connected). Only when the switch #11 is closed on the control bank it will fire. But #11 should only be closed when lights are all off (sequence is complete). This would make the sequence bank reset coil fire. It should also fire at start of game to reset all lights which it doesn't.
I almost think something should make the number #11 relay to switch on causing it to drop in the reset sequence closing that #11 main switch which would then activate the sequence reset bank coil.

I agree, it seems like something should reset the Sequence bank during game reset but I sure don't see anything like that on the schematic.

#14 6 years ago

JMB

jmbit

Inactive member

Make/Break are good on the DB, all motor contacts are testing correctly.

#15 6 years ago

JMB

jmbit

Inactive member

#16 6 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi jmbit, HowardR, currieddog +
I also think that jmbit in his post-5 is "at the problem": +/- "should make the #11-Relay to plunge" --- (many ifs and whens and maybes) - see the JPG --- can You tell "another purpose for 'my marked green wiring' --- other than "make the #11-Relay to plunge at Start-up" ?

Jmbit - want to inspect "wire-yellow and wire-orange-mingled-with-white - and the switch on DB-Relay - and the Score-Motor-Switch-1C and the wire to SCM-1C (wire-red-green) ? Greetings Rolf

0Stock-Car-Work-01 (resized).jpg

#17 6 years ago

JMB

jmbit

Inactive member

rolf_martin_062 Appreciate the help! Same to the rest of you boys!
I followed everything through and tested connectivity and everything tests perfect except "R" Make/Brake - Red/Green to Red/White - If its opens I get connectivity if its closed I get connectivity. Not sure why this is... Don't think it should...
image1 (resized).jpeg

#18 6 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi jmbit
the switch on R-Relay (You show in post-17) is one of several switches "controlling playfield action" --- You would complain if the switch would not work properly.
Other people have their theorys / beliefs - I do not like to use meters - I am (always) afraid that I get the result "connectivity" from the "many wires in the pin - lots of stuff connected - maybe I have connection all the way around through the windings on the transformer".

My "marked green" wiring still is an hypothesis. Switch Motor-1C is hard to get at --- Make-and-Brake-Switch on DB-Relay is hard to get at. It is not easy to clip-on a Jumper-Wire (for tests) - it is not easy to clip-on an Test-Light (to get information) ---
(I did not yet try it by myself) - a while ago in another topic HowardR came up with the idea / suggestion: "Instead of an gator-clip at the end of an Jumper-Wire or an Test-Light" there is an "Safety Pin" --- the needle of the pin we plug / tuck / insert through the fabric insulation (direction of moving-in / pushing is almost parallel to the wire) --- the inserted needle is inside the fabric touching the metal of the wire. SteveFury shoes a Testlight - made by two 12Volt car-bulbs --- one put behind the other so it is summed up to 24Volts: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics#post-2634425

See the JPG
AA: You have clipped-on a Test-Light at a coil on a relay, side wire(s)-BLACK soldered-on. The other end of the Test-Light has the Safety-pin end - inserted in the wire-red-green at the Score-Motor-Switch-1C - inserted into the wire - about 2 or 3 inches away from the Score-Motor-Switch-1C. You start a game --- the AA-Test-Light lights-up as soon as the R-Relay actuates - and because the R-Relay stays actuated forever: AA-Test-Light is lit forever.
IF (if, if) the AA-Test-Light does NOT light-up: The wire-red-green to the Score-Motor-Switch-1C is no good.
BB: About the same as AA --- BUT: The BB-Test-Light turns off when the motor makes a turn - the Test-Light comes on again when the motor stops.
CC: As BB - the difference is the connecting wire in the pin --- we learn if this connecting wire is good or no good.
DD: The DD-Test-Light must flash-up when You start a game and the DB-Relay plunges - lit as long as the DB-Relay is plunged. Greetings Rolf

P.S.: Have the pin toggled-off, main power cord unplugged when You hold the safety pin. When You want to hold the safety pin when there is current in the pin: You MUST wear rubber gloves to protect You --- there is 24VAC POWER in the safety pin !

0Stock-Car-Work-02 (resized).jpg

#19 6 years ago

JMB

jmbit

Inactive member

rolf_martin_062 This is awesome, thank you so much for the amazing and clear drawings. I'll test these tonight/tomorrow.
Thought/question - HowardR I love the idea of the pin. What if I hook that up to a telecom toner and set it to continuity so it shows the LED light going on and off. That should give me the light. IN05152-501 (resized).jpg

Played around a little today with a few other things and seem as though #11 doesn't do it's job and ties into the same issue. When all lights are out it doesn't drop to "wow" either or activate the #2,7,4,9 like it should either.

Cheers everyone! I will get back with my results/fix/Hopefully excited to be done response.....

#20 6 years ago

JMB

jmbit

Inactive member

rolf_martin_062 I did all the tests with a light and pin and got these results;

AA - light remained ON the entire time once I added power to the machine. - Is this incorrect? It does get brighter when started vs when power first on.
BB - On, off, ON
CC - On, off, On, off, ON
DD - Off, on, OFF

I added a few test -
DB yellow wire sw to Red/Green back on motor sw 1C - off, on, off - This looks correct to me
#11 yellow wire sw to Red/Green back on motor sw 1C - off, on, off - This looks correct to me as well.

#21 6 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi jmbit
thanks for trying the " HowardR 's " safety-pin test - great, it works.
The "AA" Light test: When You toggle-on the pin it should be off - should turn-on when the R-Relay pulls. The behaviour in Your pin probably is an "minor fault" we may let "as is" for a while - maybe later You want to inspect the threebladed-Switch on R-Relay and do a bit of adjustment so the middle blade (wire-red-white) truely does not have contact (when the relay is NOT actuated) with outerblade (wire-red-green) --- no need to hurry on this.

BB and CC: You do not write exactly the same words --- BB and CC must react exactly the same --- once a game has started: ON when the motor is not running --- OFF while the motor is running.

DD: is "on" only within a short period of time --- when You start a new game : "on" during "DB-Relay is in state plunged.

DB-Relay-yellow-wire is soldered-on at middle-blade on the threebladed switch.
I am not sure if I understand the second-last sentence in Your post-20: Did You mount "Test-Light" or did You mount "Jumper-Wire" ?
I am not sure if I understand the very last sentence in Your post-20: Did You mount "Test-Light" or did You mount "Jumper-Wire" ?

Before proceeding with tests: In the end of Your post-19 You write "#11 doesnt do its job ..." - hmm, my assumption was (based on my imagination reading post-1): During play the #11 ALWAYS, RELIABLE functions --- by now I wonder if You have an non pleasing "sometimes" fault.
Please write about "behaviour of #11 when playing a ball", Greetings Rolf

#22 6 years ago

JMB

jmbit

Inactive member

rolf_martin_062 Just wanted to address the last question from you and my last statement. The number #11 relay;
If I manually drop the #11 (dropping mechanism(don't know the term)) that closes the switch behind it. (red / black wires) and the armature (red / white wires) does fire.
How #11 should work is if all lights go out 1-10 either from the pass through switches or by the spinner the #11 should drop and create "WOW" and light 2,7,4,9 lights up (with the chances to add more balls). I'm able to get all lights out however the #11 switches/relay (not sure) doesn't seem to react and create wow when lit. I know this use to work... If I manually drop that #11 and the ball hits the ball return it does fire the armature (red/White wires). Thinking I need to follow all my jumpers through today on the numbers.

I did double check BB and CC and that seems to run the way I wrote it, has an extra sequence of OFF, ON.

*all the test I ran I ran with a test-light.

DD - is ON for only a flicker (brief time) - like when the switch connects for a less then a second.

#23 6 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi jmbit
thanks for post-22. You did use an Test-Light. The DD-Light shall light-up as long as the DB-Relay is plunged --- have the DD-Light near the DB-Relay so You can watch both at the same time - thn start a game and look - does the Test-Light lights while the DB-Relay is plunged ?

This is a good site http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/ then http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair
this is a good site http://www.pinrepair.com/ then http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm and here http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#axrelayvideo is a very helpful video about the AX-Relay. For us of interest is --- time 0:48 to 0:56 Clay (?) manually makes relays sitting in the so-called Control-Bank to plunge.
In Your pin the #1-, #2-, ... #11-Relay sit in the so-called Sequence Bank. Question: Does Your Sequence Bank looks like the Control-Bank in the video ? Toggle-off the pin, unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - practice a bit - can You make (like Clay does in the video) - can You make the #11-Relay to plunge ? Then You plug-in, toggle-on, start a game - DOES the pin in the Start / Reset procedure RESET the Sequence Bank ? From now on WEAR rubber gloves (for insulation) --- while You play: Make the #11-Relay to plunge (actually You want to be honest and nice to the pin - You make all #1-, #2- ... Relays to plunge) - then You let drain the ball - does the pin resets the Sequence Bank ?

I would like to learn about "DOES the #11-Relay fire when we force connection ? So its time to take Jumper-Wires and force connection. Make You an Jumper-Wire with an Gator-clip*** on one end --- and an HowardR - safety pin on the other end of the Jumper-Wire.
See the JPG, "FF" - toggle-off the pin, unplug the main power cord - then insert the safety-pin end of the Jumper-Wire into "wire in the pin color-yellow - near the solder-lug on the switch on the #11-Relay". Take the other end of the Jumper-Wire NEAR the 24VAC-fuse - side wire-in-the-pin-color-red-white*** !!! is soldered-on and lay the Gator-clip*** on wood - not touching metal.
Then plug-in, toggle-on, start a game - the reset is done and You can / could play. NOW hold the Jumper-Wire at insulation and tip-on the Gator-clip*** at fuse "side wire-red-white*** !!! is soldered-on. Tip-on and then pull away - question: DOES the #11-Relay fire ?

Gator-clip*** - If You do not have Gator-clips: The Jumper-Wire can end in a short stub of blank metal / wire.
wire-red-white***: ALWAYS use side of the fuse with wire-red-white when You tip-on a Jumper-Wire --- doing so: You have the fuse in Your established Jumpering. Greetings Rolf

P.S.: Actually I would like You to do the "EE"-Jumper-Test --- but I am not shure if the short connecting wire (switch to coil) on the pin is long enough to insert the safety-pin-needle.

0Stock-Car-Work-03 (resized).jpg

#24 6 years ago

JMB

jmbit

Inactive member