(Topic ID: 261089)

Gottlieb Solar Rider/System 1 / Fault with Specials

By Raff

4 years ago


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    #1 4 years ago

    To get specials lit up you have to knock the 4 white targets down first then the red target last it cant be the red one first.
    Well it was working in that order but now if only one target goes down special lights up even if you hit the red one first. Specials light should not come on unless the 4 white targets are down.
    Raff

    #3 4 years ago

    Can you do a switch test in the diagnostics and report back? And does it light up with any of the five drops being dropped, or just specific ones being the only ones dropped?

    #4 4 years ago

    Diagnostics test done normal.
    Yes it lights up if any of the five targets drop.
    Raff

    #5 4 years ago

    Which switch does it report for each drop target? And are you using an original MPU, or aftermarket? If it's an original, I've had serious issues with phantom switches because of battery corrosion; the switch matrix logic area of the board is pretty much in the direct path of battery leaks in the design, and that causes some really odd behavior when it's been corroded.

    #6 4 years ago
    Quoted from LynnInDenver:

    And are you using an original MPU, or aftermarket

    Original

    #7 4 years ago

    So, again, in diagnostics, which switch numbers are reported on each drop target?

    #8 4 years ago

    In diagnostics it reports the numbers between 30-34 for targets.

    #9 4 years ago

    OK, so no doubling up when one is dropped? No reporting of "30", then "31", then "32", etc, when you drop a single target?

    Also, you do have ROM "E" on the MPU?

    #10 4 years ago

    I dont know too much about system 1 machines i mainly work on em machines.
    So i am trying to undetstand whats going on here. So in diagnostics mode all switches are closed and the game rom i will check in the morning and report back. What ic chips on the
    Driver board control the targets. And if you could please post some pictures of under the playfield.
    Raff

    #11 4 years ago

    Here you go. The chips for the switch matrix (they deal with more than the drop target switches) are in the lower left corner of the board. The upper leftmost chip is for the ROM.

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    #12 4 years ago

    Thanks for the pics. The rom is E thats the right rom. Could the edge connectors cause this problem. IMG20200205204516 (resized).jpgIMG20200205204516 (resized).jpgIMG20200205204406 (resized).jpgIMG20200205204406 (resized).jpg
    You can see the white targets still up and the
    Specials on.
    Raff

    #13 4 years ago

    If you haven't repinned the connectors yourself, and have no indication the previous owner ever did, then yes, repinning the connectors is something you need to do. The fingers in the connectors are only rated for something like 30 cycles, and any machine - especially if it saw a route - has a chance of having had hundreds of cycles on the connectors.

    Interesting that it's clearly NOT seeing phantom switches, as your pics are showing the bonus ladder, and it's indicating that the machine only sees that you've hit one or two drops. When I was having phantom switch hits, the bonus ladder would move further in response.

    Now, here's a question... if you drop a white target and the special lights, does it actually collect the special when you drop the red target? That might indicate whether or not it's a short somewhere in the light matrix causing it to light up when any target is dropped.

    #14 4 years ago
    Quoted from LynnInDenver:

    if you drop a white target and the special lights, does it actually collect the special when you drop the red target?

    Yes

    #15 4 years ago

    That's weird that you're getting that, and no phantom switch action. I'm running out of ideas that don't involve replacing the three chips for the switch matrix control (7404N, 7405N). You might try posting what we've seen thus far, including what you responded with, to the big thread (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/home-for-the-gottlieb-sys1-sys-80b-guys-yep-i-guess-it-a-club/), or post there to point people here and see if anyone has any ideas.

    One other thing to try would be, does it collect the special dropping another white target?

    #16 4 years ago

    Is there any connectors on this
    Game that could cause a fault with the targets and special.
    Raff

    #17 4 years ago

    Usually, if there's a fault because of the switch matrix logic, it does something like "walk" all the way along a "column" or "row". What you're seeing is like the MPU is treating one drop target like it's all of them at once, except for the bonus ladder should count up more than one step if that were the case.

    If you need a connector to repin, the two leftmost connectors along the bottom of the MPU handle the switch matrix. But it's sounding more and more like there's some sort of MPU logic problem going on. Or some sort of esoteric short in the matrix.

    Do you know of anyone that you can borrow a spare MPU from for testing? All the System 1 MPUs are interchangable, all it would need is the ROM. I have an MPU board, but it's badly corroded now and the switch matrix repairs have never lasted before it's back to erratic behavior.

    You might also check the diode strips on the underside of the playfield, see if any of those are shorted (both ways instead of one way current flow).

    #18 4 years ago

    When the game is first powered on there is no fault with the targets it always starts around 5 mints into play.
    When the fault kicks in, the target with the blue arrow
    IMG_20200207_153701 (resized).jpgIMG_20200207_153701 (resized).jpg
    Highlighted suddenly the sound goes dead only in that target but still gives the bonus and score. Sorry maybe i should have said this from the start. The diodes check out good power all going one way. I don't have any other board to put in i had a dragon machine but was sold.
    And when this fault kicks in when the ball goes through the top right gate
    IMG_20200207_155331 (resized).jpgIMG_20200207_155331 (resized).jpg
    It gives three bonus and then it straight away subtracts the bonus.
    Raff

    #19 4 years ago

    OK. So, the targets work normally, but once you go through the "return to lane" gate, the targets start doing the funky "any drop lights special"? Is there any other impact, like it also lighting (or strobing) the "reset drop targets" lights when you drop any drop target?

    That switch (Rollunder, #52), shares the same row (Strobe) as the red target (#32), top kickout (#42, which collects the bonus), the star rollovers (#12), the third rollover lane (#22, lit when bonus multiplier is X3), and the Right Coin Chute (#02). That strobe line is on connector A1J7, line 4, the wire colors are supposed to be Black, Orange, Orange.

    First thing to check is to see if the rollunder switch attached to the gate is correctly gapped. It should only be closed when the ball passes through the gate, and reopen once the gate is cleared. It should not close if the ball doesn't make it through the gate - there isn't any real ambiguity, if the ball doesn't have enough momentum to pass through, it won't trip the switch and will be pushed back into the playfield. Make sure the spring isn't binding and holding the switch closed.

    Do you have the manual for the machine?

    #20 4 years ago

    Check to see if there is a difficulty setting for this.

    You are not describing a hardware issue.

    Obviously not the wiring, edge connectors or switches themselves because everything passes and acts as expected in test mode.

    #21 4 years ago
    Quoted from PghPinballRescue:

    Check to see if there is a difficulty setting for this.
    You are not describing a hardware issue.
    Obviously not the wiring, edge connectors or switches themselves because everything passes and acts as expected in test mode.

    There really isn't a difficulty setting on Solar Ride that changes how the drop targets behave. There is only 3/5 ball (which only changes number of balls, whether Extra Bonus adds 3 or 5 to the ladder, and specific score of the bumpers) and Replay/Extra Ball (which changes what the award is for the Special and score tiers).

    It sounds like a hardware issue to me. I have a Solar Ride (it's our only real pinball machine currently), and when the switch matrix gets funky, it does some really odd things that seem like they might be rules settings gone off.

    #22 4 years ago
    Quoted from LynnInDenver:

    Do you have the manual for the machine?

    Yes.
    I think the problem is the rom chip E would that chip cause this problem.
    Raff

    #23 4 years ago

    There is a slight chance if the ROM has gone bad it could cause an issue... the problem is that it's difficult to source a replacement because of Gottlieb's holding company insisting that everything for repair - machine specific manuals, software, parts numbers - must be purchased from a licensed seller or by finding bits for sale from existing machines.

    I know there was a place that sells ROM chips for System 1 when they get them in, but I don't rightly remember which one; we'd already made the choice here that, when it came to that, we'd go for an after market board. We bought a LISY1 for ours in 2018.

    #24 4 years ago

    I say it is the rom chip one of the legs was broken before and resolder back and two other legs on it looked like they are going to fall off.
    Raff

    #25 4 years ago
    Quoted from LynnInDenver:

    I know there was a place that sells ROM chips for System 1 when they get them in, but I don't rightly remember which one; we'd already made the choice here that, when it came to that, we'd go for an after market board. We bought a LISY1 for ours in 2018.

    Pretty sure the only place that sells system 1 proms is flippers.com - pinball resource sublicensed them to provide the code on a 2716 if they couldn't get the original prom, but you have to build an adapter to do so. (Different chip width and pinout)

    If you turn the game off and on after the 5 minutes, does it still have the error? I'm thinking something is heating up causing the error, which would be hardware related.... and it could be a bad socket for your prom as well.

    There was a DVD set about 15 years ago people were passing around with the roms to most of the gottlieb games included in it, so the code is "out there" if flippers.com bombs out as a source you might be able to get the code. The original proms are difficult to program and most modern burners won't do them.

    Hopefully the spider chips are ok, they're just not available anywhere. There's code inside them as well (in fact, that's where the actual operating system of the game resides).

    #26 4 years ago
    Quoted from slochar:

    If you turn the game off and on after the 5 minutes, does it still have the error?

    If i turn the game off give it a 10 mint break turn the game back on the fault is gone and that rom chip is burning hot to touch.
    Raff

    #27 4 years ago

    Already back in the '80s, we had problems with System 1 games caused by the game prom overheating. Supergluing a small heat sink to the prom fixed the problems.

    #28 4 years ago
    Quoted from Tuukka:

    Supergluing a small heat sink to the prom

    Sounds good so super glue the heatsink to the top of the rom chip.
    Raff.

    #29 4 years ago

    I'd second using the heat sink, but use a proper thermal tape to attach it - most heat sinks you buy for this sort of work should come with that tape. Regular superglue will fail when exposed to heat. My recommendation is to buy a set for use with the Raspberry Pi, that should get you a heat sink big enough and the matching piece of tape.

    #30 4 years ago
    Quoted from LynnInDenver:

    use a proper thermal tape to attach it -

    Thanks lynnin will do I was thinking that when the glue heats up it wouldnt stick i might be wrong but anyway a heatsink will be going on tomorrow.
    Raff

    #31 4 years ago

    Bought the hinksink it was for a Raspberry Pi,
    IMG20200209144304 (resized).jpgIMG20200209144304 (resized).jpg
    Put it on the chip left the machine on for a couple of hours played around 10 games no fault so far so good.
    Raff

    #32 4 years ago

    Thanks to all that helped out.
    Raff

    #33 4 years ago

    You're welcome. Glad it was ultimately a simple fix.

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