(Topic ID: 265710)

Gottlieb Sky Jump Starting Issues


By vasevida

56 days ago



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  • 39 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 26 days ago by vasevida
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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AbraBypassScoreReset (resized).jpg
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#1 56 days ago

Hello All, I’ve got some time on my hands so decided to fix some lingering problems on my pinball collection. I am on my Gottlieb Sky Jump at present. The machine is in great shape all considering, it came from a basement where it had been since new and has never seen commercial use. I love it.
The problem(s) with the Sky Jump are as follows,
1. Putting a coin in the slot does not give credits.
2. The score reels do not reset to zero when a game is started.
I disassembled the credit wheel, tested the coils and replaced the sleeves, and cleaned it all up and it’s working fine. The game plays and scores fine otherwise, it just does not give credits with coins or reset to zero when a game starts.
I am pretty good with electronic machines, but this is my first/only EM so a little out of my element here. I got a single player for simplicity....
Thanks in advance for any and all help.

#2 56 days ago

I don't have schematic, but it sounds like the zero switches on the score reels are messed up. The ones reel needs to be at zero, then the 10s increment to zero, followed by 100's, then thousands. Once all score reels are at zero, then the machine goes to the next step in the sequence.

Check the switches on the score reels - there should be a switch that closes when the reel is at zero. The other switches (If my memory is correct) is the nine's switch, and the EOS switch.

#3 56 days ago

Score reel problem likely '0' switches, as noted above, so read more here: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#reels

Do you have the manual? There is always something in there about adjusting the coin mech.

#4 55 days ago

Okay so I pulled the scoring reels and cleaned them, cleaned the switches and put them back in, still no reset on game start.
I also noticed that the hundreds reel does not add to thousands and just turns over at 900 without clicking the thousands, so I looked again and my hundreds reel is different it does not have the third switch in there and has no brown cover, see picture. Is this the root of my problem? If I am understanding things this is what counts the numbers up and triggers the next highest reel. I do have a manual. Just want to know now if my hundreds reel is missing a part and need to find. It appears to be wired from the factory in this way.

AB6DA8D9-FB5F-4B82-A310-7072C7AB414B (resized).jpeg
#5 55 days ago

Follow up to the last post. I believe the 100s reel does not have a Bakelite cover because it’s not used in the match or high score/replay? I will double check the score reel switches again. Ugh.

#6 55 days ago

Correct, the 100's reel doesn't have the bakelite cover.

Say you have 12,340 on the score reels, credits on the machine and you press the replay button... does this describe what's happening: the score reels do not move, the ball ejects into the shooter lane, the backglass has Ball in Play "1" and you can play a normal game (except you have a starting score of 12,340)?

Here's the startup for Sky Jump, does your "A" relay fire when you press the replay button?

startup copy (resized).jpg
#7 55 days ago

Yes that is what happens. The game plays as normal, score does not reset. The coin slots do not put credits on the machine.

After adjusting and cleaning all the score reels, now it does not go from 9-10,000 points. I double checked all the score reel switches and they are correct. All the scoring is correct otherwise. I can take apart a decagon and re assemble in my sleep now...

I will check the a relay and do the coin switch adjustment and AS relay adjustment as per the manual and see if that helps after dinner and the kids are in bed.
I sure appreciate the help.
And to think I chose fixing this one over a switch matrix issue on my Fish Tales because I thought it would be quicker and easier...lol

#8 54 days ago
Quoted from vasevida:

it does not go from 9-10,000 points.

Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

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#9 54 days ago

Thanks Howard,I’ll have a look.
Love the place up there in Lyons. I play there whenever I come to the front range.

Update, I fixed all of the machine scoring, it’s all working correctly, even lit/not lit values etc.

The game starts and plays fine. The drop targets re set as does the ball in play. The ball kicks out of the out hole and the credit wheel loses one credit.
Two things are not happening, the coin slots are not adding credits to the game and the score (it’s a one player game) does not reset to zero.

I will go through the startup sequence tonight and I made some jumpers to diagnose things. When a coin is put in, the motor spins but nothing happens. The coin mech is working and when a coin is dropped in the motor spins but nothing happens.
When the reset button is pushed the game subtracts a credit on the credit wheel and starts up. The s relay fires, motor turns, targets reset and ball kicks out, just no score reset. I will look through the lined articles and go thru the sequence relay by relay. Im gonna get this thing running perfectly if it kills me. Thanks everyone.

#10 53 days ago

Hey do any of you fine folks know where I might get a full schematic for Gottlieb's Sky Jump?
I have an owners manual, all the score cards etc, but no schematic.
Thanks in advance.

#11 53 days ago

PBR (Pinball Resource) is the place for official Gottlieb copies of schematics.

#12 52 days ago

Okay Thanks Billl - Will order one tonight after work.
If anyone has a partial schematic for the game reset circuit(s) and/or credit from coin slot circuit(s) so I could work on this tonight, Id be forever in your debt.
The game score re set circuit is most important.
Thanks Jamie

#13 52 days ago

While waiting for a schematic, if you're looking for something to do tonight, you could determine whether the "A" relay is actuating when you start a game. Can you identify the "A" relay in your game? Are your relay labels intact?

#14 52 days ago

Yep - that is where I was heading next. I think I am very close.....
Everything is intact, the game overall is in great shape.
Labels are all there still. I dont think the A relay is firing and I can trace it to the switch on the motor I think.

#15 52 days ago

Yes, a switch on the motor and one on the "S" relay, the "S" relay may be a make/break switch.

#16 51 days ago

So I pulled the S relay and cleaned it and replaced it, and noticed that the plate on the bottom relay on the A relay was out of place. I am going to clean the switches and replace it, but I was checking things with a jumper wire and the 2nd relay in the A relay, I think this is what is called an interlock relay did not appear to be working. Nothing was happening visually with the A relay. Well I tested both solenoids on A and one had 2.5 ohms resistance (which is normal I think) and the bottom horizontal one had 15.7 ohms resistance. So I have a few questions.
1. How does this A relay work, an interlock relay with two small coils and two metal plates?
2. Does 15.7 ohms resistance mean this solenoid is bad? it’s identical to the other in the A relay.
3. Unrelated - what does a hold relay do? Does it just shut things down when a tilt or slam tilt is actuated? Should it ever be actuated unless a tilt or slam tilt switch is closed?

I did find the schematic, so I think with a little more time and getting some practice with the jumper wire thing, I will get this thing running again.
Thanks

#17 51 days ago

When checking coil resistance, you need to unsolder one of the leads to the coil, otherwise the measurement will be distorted by other parallel paths through the circuitry.

The smaller coils in the interlock type relays are typically around 15 ohms. Can you read the coil types off their paper labels (or schematics)?

Here's a good video on interlock-type relays:
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#axrelayvideo , at about 3:00 he gives a close-in view and shows how to adjust it.

In your machine, the "A" relay should fire (via the motor and "S" switches), the score reels should then start resetting. When all reels are at 0, the "A reset" coil should fire (via a motor switch and the "10's, 100's, 1000's, 10000's reel reset" switches).

#18 51 days ago
Quoted from vasevida:

.....
3. Unrelated - what does a hold relay do? Does it just shut things down when a tilt or slam tilt is actuated? Should it ever be actuated unless a tilt or slam tilt switch is closed?
....

The "hold" relay typically turns on at start and then stays on. Normally closed anti-cheat and slam switches, when activated (opened) turn the hold relay off.

The "tilt hold" relay will typically activate when a tilt is detected or the "hold" relay turns off (as a result of a slam/cheat).

Your schematic will show the specific details for your machine.

#19 45 days ago

Ok an update I have now gotten the A relay to fire, after the S relay and the hold (R) relay comes on as it should, but the A relay now causes the score motor to run and it does not release the Ax interlock, so I will check the zero switches on all of the score reels and the switch on the score motor tonight and see where this gets me. Thanks everyone the video on interlock relays was great. I am really getting a feel for this technology. Any input is appreciated, but I will simply use the schematic through the reset sequence one by one and see where that gets me.

#20 45 days ago

You could use the jumper wire to help narrow the issue down... in the attached AbraCaDabra schematic (similar to your "A" relay reset path), you can bypass all reel zero switches to determine whether it's the motor switch or one of the reel switches. The jumper could then be moved around to find out which reel(s) have a switch issue if the motor switch checks out.

Keep in mind it may be the "A" relay reset coil itself. You can test that by *briefly* jumpering around the motor switch and all the reel switches at the appropriate time in the reset sequence.

The action of the "A" relay and "A" relay reset plates seemed correct per the video?
AbraBypassScoreReset (resized).jpg

#21 45 days ago

I found the issue to resetting the A relay. It’s a switch 2B on the motor, the bottom stack outer switch. It’s below the cam and triggers off the post and a leaf type actuator on the inside, not a stiff metal one. I am having a bear of a time getting it adjusted right, it either does not trigger the reset relay, or stays shut. I can see a green spark on it but it still does not actuate the reset unless I adjust it to the point where it stays closed.
I just gotta find the sweet spot I guess. Any suggestions from the pros? Seems like it might be the whole stack is out of whack.

#22 45 days ago
Quoted from vasevida:

I found the issue to resetting the A relay. It’s a switch 2B on the motor, the bottom stack outer switch. It’s below the cam and triggers off the post and a leaf switch type actuator on the inside, not a stiff metal one. I am having a bear of a time getting it adjusted right, it either does not trigger the reset relay, or stays shut. I can see a green spark on it but it still does not actuate the reset unless I adjust it to the point where it stays closed.
I just gotta find the sweet spot I guess. Any suggestions from the pros.

#23 45 days ago

Have you removed the cotter pin, rotated the motor up and looked closely? There is typically a "formed switch blade" that rides the pegs and actuates the switch stack. Is it broken or missing?

formed switch blades (resized).jpg
#24 45 days ago

Yes, I have it’s an A786

#25 45 days ago

Other things to check:

Motor switch stack screws tight?

All spacers look good (no cracks or melting)?

Switch contacts cleaned?

Rotate the motor platter by hand and adjust gap on the switch.

and if I may borrow HowardR 's words (again):
For a switch to work 3 things are necessary:
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening

Use a meter to measure the resistance of the motor switch output to the first reel reset switch in the circuit - is the resistance low? There's a jones plug in the path.

All solder joints good on all the switches in the path?

#26 45 days ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

For a switch to work 3 things are necessary:]
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points

You left off the (duh). That was the most important part!!! @vaseveda will never fix his game now!!!

1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)

#27 44 days ago

It’s not the switch, it’s the ax relay interlock release. I can un pin it, and it works every time in my hand, but then when I pin it back in place, it will lock but does not fire hard enough to release it. I guess clean it up? Any suggestions. Getting a little frustrated.

#28 44 days ago

Are you saying when you remove AX's cotter pin and let the relay hang free, the reset works? It just doesn't work when installed in the relay bank?

Jumpering around switches doesn't make it work? (The idea being that there is a dirty switch, oxidized jones plug or intermittent solder joint in the path...)

#29 44 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

You left off the
(duh). That was the most important part!!! @vaseveda will never fix his game now!!!
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)

I wanted to avoid copyright issues...

#30 44 days ago

Yes that’s what I am saying.

#31 44 days ago

Just spitballin' here... anyone else have any other ideas?

I would try the long jumper, bypassing as much of the circuit as possible (output of motor switch directly to the reset coil).

Also look for any mechanical obstruction when the relay is installed back in its bank and any electrical shorting to the metal bank structure, bare wires, broken wires.

The game operates ok, otherwise? Pop bumpers are strong, targets reset? You have good line voltage?

You did successfully measure the resistance of both coils? They were both around 15 ohms?

When this happens, the AX relay is not still pulling due to a short somewhere? You could put the meter on the AX relay and see if it's still being energized...

2 weeks later
#32 27 days ago

Ok so I got the machine starting up and playing correctly, scoring and all. I have one last issue and it’s that I cannot put credits on the machine without manually operating the coil in the credit wheel. It takes the credits off just fine when I press the start button. The motor turns when I hit the button or put in a coin, just no credits on the credit wheel. Can any of you fine gentlemen walk me through how to jumper the coil back there? I know the idea of it all, but just am having trouble actually finding the place to put the alligator clip on the main red white wire. The other would go on the positive coil terminal. Then I would put a coin in and see if it the add credits coil fires correct?

#33 27 days ago

You say the motor turns when you put in a coin so the W relay is probably activating OK.
Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

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#34 27 days ago

First and foremost, I appreciate your help and patience with me. Fixing this EM has been an exercise in patience. A learning experience for sure. I am enjoying learning the schematics and how these things work, it’s cool.
I understand the schematics and the jumper cable concept, I am an engineer by trade, so good with this kind of stuff, although not an electrical engineer obviously.... I have a couple 2-3 foot jumpers with insulated alligator clips, and I understand to put one clip on the orange green side of the coil, but where EXACTLY do I put the other end of the jumper? Do I trace the wire back to the main red white wire and clip on to an exposed section of the red white and then power up and drop a coin in? I am kind of struggling with where exactly to put the other end of the jumper in order to make it work. This is a nit picky item and I can put credits on the machine manually, but I spent so much time on it now, that I want to get it running perfectly. I disassembled and rebuilt the credit wheel mechanism already so it’s working well mechanically, and again it works fine taking credits off. I cleaned the coin slot plugs as well. Again, thanks for your help and patience.

#35 27 days ago

Start simple, test the coil, you can pick up the red-white wire on the 10,000's score reel at the "Ten Thousands Reset" switch. Connect one end of the jumper there and *tap* the other end to the orange green side of the coil. Does the unit count up? If so, coil works!

Use your jumper to short the "15th pos replay unit" switch, and drop a coin. If not working, use your jumper to short the switch on the "W relay" and press the W armature in manually, does the motor turn? Do credits get added?

If not, set the "2nd chute adj" to position 5 (bypassing 3 motor switches), drop a coin, does the credit unit add 5 credits?If still not working we're down to the Motor 1A switch or Jones plugs...

#36 27 days ago

Another question, does the "W Relay" fire when you drop a coin? Try both coin slots...

#37 26 days ago

Yep. W relay fires in both slots. Checked the coil and it fires. Checked the motor switches and they all are cleaned and appear to be closed. I guess I jumper the Jones plugs now to see if it is them? Checked all the different Jones plugs and the 1st coin chute plug appears to be working, when I put it in there and drop a coin it takes a credit off and restarts. So I guess I am down to the 2nd chute adjustment will try and jumper over it.

#38 26 days ago

.... and Motor 1A - if nothing else works, clean 1A, tighten up the gap and retest.

The switch on the "W Relay" looks good?

#39 26 days ago

Hey I built a long jumper and just went through the schematic.....it ended up being the switch on the W relay. So the machine now works completely correct! Thanks everyone. Wahoo.
I owe you all a beer, and now on to the final problem in my collection a switch matrix problem on fish tales. Thanks again.

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