(Topic ID: 322439)

Gottlieb "rollercoaster" EM double scores

By southofi-10

1 year ago


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  • 16 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by dmarston
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Roller Coaster G relay (resized).jpg
Roller Coaster C relay (resized).jpg
Roller Coaster U relay (resized).jpg
Roller Coaster pointer score (resized).jpg
#1 1 year ago

I have this problem with double scoring,and sometimes it just sticks on scoring.
I'm familiar with most circuits in em's.But this one has me baffled.
Everytime the arrow moves it score 100,when it should be 50.The other values(100,400+) on the arrow score fine. It's the 50 points that get doubles.
It has several relays including a scan relay that I'm not familiar with.
I would be happy to get it to just score at rollovers and holes instead of everytime the arrow is moved.
Sorry.It's not letting me upload video
Thank you

#2 1 year ago

Does it score 100 points (1 pulse) or 50 points twice (10 pulses)?
Here's the circuit (in red) that should score 50 or 500 points based on the position of the arrow:
Roller Coaster pointer score (resized).jpgRoller Coaster pointer score (resized).jpg
Every other position on the J relay wiper disc connects the slate and white-green wires which should score 50 or 500 points depending on the state of the #1-#4 relays. If you jumper the slate and white-green wires together does it score 50 points (plus whatever else the arrow says should score)?

/Mark

#3 1 year ago

This question has prompted me to retrieve my posting on rec.games.pinball from 2003, where I wrote up pointer scoring on this game.

This game had a schematic and a 12-page manual. Those and the score cards may be available from Steve Young's Pinball Resource. Quoting the manual: The indicator feature scores 50 points when it crosses to another segment. When it stops, it scores the indicated value....If the pointer is moved in the direction [opposite to the direction in which the scan relay scans], the scoring units will keep scoring 10 points until the relay reaches that point and scores indicated amount....Special scores 500 points if indicator stops on 50, and resets sequence bank....The kicker holes score the pointer value.

In other words, you're having a problem with one of the weirdest EM scoring circuits ever designed. Worse, the Scan Relay (J) is a type AS mini-stepper, which can be hard to adjust. (The manual explains it.)

I pulled out my schematic and can tell you this: Relay J tries to stay in sync with the position of the stepper, but all the 50-point positions are wired together to make it interesting. As soon as J and the indicator (pointer target) disagree, relay C ("Tracking Control Relay") drops *off* and activates 3 things:
1. Withholds its half of the requirement for pointer-value score
2. Allows motor pulses to get to J (bl+red to wh-bl)
3. Turns on G, the "Scanning Relay"
Notice that C has no hold-in circuit, being controlled by the agreement of two wiper disks. Incidentally, the C coil is "south" of the SB main switch, so it does the same chasing-the-pointer thing during reset (but SB killed the scoring). Notice that C does not make the motor turn! But G does. In fact, G does a lot of stuff:
1. Other half of requirement to score the pointer value, but only after the motor reaches its 5th pulse. Pointer value scored via relay U.
2. Starts the motor turning.
3. Swings motor pulses away from pointer score and direct to the 10-point relay (M). When off, these pulses go through U and then the second wiper on J toward either 10s or 100s (L), depending on where the wiper is.
4. Suppresses kick-outs from outhole and playfield scoring holes.
5. Part of hold-in circuit for U.
6. Part of hold-in circuit for itself.
So G is causing the steps of J, and the 10 points per step, but C is actually enabling the steps to get to J only so long as they disagree. Eventually, J will find the pointer position and C will come back on, which is its normal state during play. Now the two item #1s above are in line to turn on U and score the pointer value, but only when the motor has homed (if I haven't missed anything), so you should get 50 or 100 just for chasing the pointer. After all the above rigamarole, U is fairly normal:
1. Cause the motor to turn.
2. Guide pulses through the scoring disc on J to either M (always all
5 pulses) or L (1-5, via other motor switches for exclusions).
3. Suppresses kick-outs from holes.
4. Suppresses sequence bank reset. (CAUTION: this is line voltage!)
5. Part of hold-in circuit for G.
6. Part of hold-in circuit for itself.
That's most of the scheme; I'm leaving out a few details of how each relay shuts off in the proper sequence.

SUMMARY: Scoring doesn't occur directly through the pointer, but through one side of a mini-stepper that tracks it. Relay C is on when the pointer is found, so moving the pointer elsewhere starts the hunt. There are two phases: find the new position of the pointer (G), and score the value it points to (U).
C on, G off: quiescent state
C off, G on: chasing the pointer
C on, G on: found pointer, score its value via U
C off, G off: tilted or power off

Please archive this. I don't want to write it again.
.................David Marston

#4 1 year ago

Wow. Thanks for the write up.Gonna save it.
So I got the C relay thats always on. Looking at the schematic,it shows it going through the j relay disc to the indicator disc and then either the R or S relay.I'm going there and look at those next.
I appreciate the write up.If I read it enough times,I may understand it.
Like you said. One of the weirdest em circuits ever.So I'm not feeling too bad not figuring it out. I'm sure I'll get it eventually,even if I have to call in a professional.LOL

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Does it score 100 points (1 pulse) or 50 points twice (10 pulses)?
Here's the circuit (in red) that should score 50 or 500 points based on the position of the arrow:
[quoted image]
Every other position on the J relay wiper disc connects the slate and white-green wires which should score 50 or 500 points depending on the state of the #1-#4 relays. If you jumper the slate and white-green wires together does it score 50 points (plus whatever else the arrow says should score)?
/Mark

Jumper still scores 50 points twice.
10 pulses

#6 1 year ago

That means that the Score Motor is running through two cycles rather than one. I think the U/Pointer Score relay, which makes the Score Motor run, should let go at the end of the 1st Score Motor cycle (or 5 pulses). Does it stay active for the 2nd cycle (or last 5 pulses)?
Roller Coaster U relay (resized).jpgRoller Coaster U relay (resized).jpg
If the U relay is active for two cycles, what are the G/Scanning and C/Tracking Control relays doing? I think if you close one of the rollover switches in the circuit above the G relay shouldn't fire and the C relay shouldn't relax if the Pointer wiper and the J/Scan relay disc match as dmarston described above.

If G is firing, you could experiment with the C relay circuit to see if it's working:
Roller Coaster C relay (resized).jpgRoller Coaster C relay (resized).jpg
If you clip the red-black and brown wires (in red) together with a jumper that should keep the C relay active. Do the rollovers score 50 points correctly with a jumper in place?

#7 1 year ago

I'll check the score motor cycling today ,but pretty sure it keeps running during scoring.
The rollovers and holes have always scored correctly (pointer value).
It double scores 50 only when pointer is moved.
If pointer is moved to 300,it scores 100 (2 -50 pt pules)then 300.
There is a very slight delay in between the 50 point scoring.
It goes *****,slight delay,then ***** again. * meaning 10 points scored. It doesn't go **********
It goes ***** *****

#8 1 year ago

the U relay pulls in during second round of pulses (which is apparently running the motor.
The rollovers DONOT double score.They score only the indicated value.No matter if it's 50 or 300 or what ever is indicated at arrow.
So I;m guessing the trouble is in the U pulling in. I have videos,but can't upload here.
Only getting double pulses when arrow moves to differant location.The C relay relaxes just for a split second,then pulls in again.
The G scanning relay pulls in to find location on j disc which seems to be working find.
Guessing something is pulling in U when it shouldn't be.But thats a guess

#9 1 year ago

I've watched a few videos on youtube to see how it should behave and the pointer scoring seems inconsistent.

Quoted from dmarston:

so you should get 50 or 100 just for chasing the pointer.

I think what dmarston means is that after moving the pointer the C relay relaxes and the J relay starts stepping to find the new position of the pointer. If the J relay finds the new pointer position in the first 5 steps you get 50 points, plus whatever the pointer lands on. If it takes more than 5 steps for J to find the pointer you get 100 points plus whatever the pointer lands on. Keep in mind that the pointer can move in either direction but the J relay can only step in one direction. So moving the pointer one step can cause the J relay to take 9 steps to find it.

Quoted from southofi-10:

There is a very slight delay in between the 50 point scoring.
It goes *****,slight delay,then ***** again. * meaning 10 points scored. It doesn't go **********
It goes ***** *****

The five pulses, gap, five pulses means that the points are coming from either the Motor 1A or 4A switches. The gap happens between consecutive Score Motor cycles.

Revising what I wrote in reply #3 I think when the pointer moves the G relay should remain active for one or two Score Motor cycles, depending on how far J has to step to find the pointer, and should award 50 points for each cycle that it's active. Once the pointer is found, and the 50 or 100 points have been added, the U relay fires for one more Score Motor cycle to award whatever the pointer landed on.

Does that explain the behavior you're seeing? If not, move the pointer by hand by various amounts and pay attention to how long the G relay is active, when the U relay comes on and whether the scoring is right or not. Knowing which cases pass or fail will help in diagnosing if there is an issue.

#10 1 year ago

I'm trying to understand.Please bear with me.
I can understand getting 50 points on pointer moving and another 50 for it landing on 50.
What I can't understand is why ,if the pointer lands on 300,that it gives 50,then another 50,then the 300.
It "always" doubles no matter what I move it to,and the j relay may only have to pulse once or twice to find it's location.It's the double 50's that I don't understand.
I can play the game just fine,and maybe it's suppose to be this way,but from what I understand from the manuel,it gives 50 for movement and then whatever score it lands all.
Thanks for all your help.It is appreciated

#11 1 year ago

That is a pretty insane circuit. I bet a few operators were not happy.

#12 1 year ago

What are the G and U relays doing? If the J relay takes 5 steps or less to find the new pointer location the G relay should remain active for one Score Motor cycle (for 50 points) and the U relay should activate at the very end of the 1st Score Motor cycle and be active for the 2nd cycle (for whatever points the pointer indicates).

It sounds like the G relay may linger for a 2nd Score Motor cycle. If so check that the U relay activates at the end of the first Score Motor cycle and check that the two switches in the red box open to let the G relay relax:
Roller Coaster G relay (resized).jpgRoller Coaster G relay (resized).jpg
If your Score Motor has a service jack you can disconnect power to the Score Motor and turn it by hand to slow things down.

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkG:

I think what @dmarston means is that after moving the pointer the C relay relaxes and the J relay starts stepping to find the new position of the pointer. If the J relay finds the new pointer position in the first 5 steps you get 50 points, plus whatever the pointer lands on. If it takes more than 5 steps for J to find the pointer you get 100 points plus whatever the pointer lands on. Keep in mind that the pointer can move in either direction but the J relay can only step in one direction. So moving the pointer one step can cause the J relay to take 9 steps to find it.

Yes, that's what I meant. If J is not well-adjusted, it could struggle to step ahead on each pulse. Another complication during game play is that you could move the pointer to a second new position while G/J are still trying to find the first new position, which would drag out the chase sequence.
.................David Marston

#14 1 year ago

It sounds like the G relay may linger for a 2nd Score Motor cycle. If so check that the U relay activates at the end of the first Score Motor cycle and check that the two switches in the red box open to let the G relay relax:

It is indeed the G relay staying in. Once the game is started I can pull the g relay in by hand and it works right.But once the score arrow is moved it stays in for double. I've going to get a closer look at the motor points .I've triple checked the U relay and it's working OK.It may also be pulling in to long as well.
Eventually WE will get it working.
Thank you

#15 1 year ago

Ok . The G relay is staying on because of the j disc relay,which seems to be the problem.
If I turn the score arrow counter clockwise just a few scores,everything works good. If I go clockwise and the j disc needs to pulse more than 4 times to find the score,then it gives me double 50's before that score.
MarkG was spot on with his write up...

If the J relay finds the new pointer position in the first 5 steps you get 50 points, plus whatever the pointer lands on. If it takes more than 5 steps for J to find the pointer you get 100 points plus whatever the pointer lands on. Keep in mind that the pointer can move in either direction but the J relay can only step in one direction. So moving the pointer one step can cause the J relay to take 9 steps to find it.

So no doubt this is messed up,but works as designed.(Kinda) Maybe this is where they found a flaw,and never designed a game like this again. Kinda like the target alpha machine gun bonus scoring that seems to always miss a bonus or two.
Anyway. I'm shutting this down.Playfield glass going on,and I'll just play it like this.It's all a matter of which way the pointer arrow is moved,so I guess I'll accept this.Just alot of 10 point chimes going on.LOL
Thanks everyone who got involved in this thread. I appreciate every response.

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from southofi-10:

If the J relay finds the new pointer position in the first 5 steps you get 50 points, plus whatever the pointer lands on. If it takes more than 5 steps for J to find the pointer you get 100 points plus whatever the pointer lands on. Keep in mind that the pointer can move in either direction but the J relay can only step in one direction. So moving the pointer one step can cause the J relay to take 9 steps to find it.

Yes, that was what they planned. I think the main reason they dropped this design is that the pointer is just not very much fun as a scoring device unless you can get a lot of different angles on it. Another issue would be failure modes (e.g., broken wire between pointer disc and J disc) that could set up an infinite scoring situation.
.................David Marston

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