I'm trying to figure out a bonus scoring problem with my 1975 Gottlieb Quick Draw, and am stuck with how to approach it. Everything else on the machine seems to work fine. You can collect up to 15K bonus during a ball, and when the ball drains, if I only have 1X the bonus amount, it scores it correctly. However, if I've hit all the rollovers (A-B-C) and I'm supposed to get 2X or 3X (on the last ball) the bonus, it doesn't score the correct amount. In case it helps, this is how it scores - it's not always consistent, but it's close:

Bonus Amount on pf------------------2X----------------------3X

1K-------------------------------2K (correct)------------3K (correct)
2K-------------------------------3K-----------------------6K (correct)
3K-------------------------------4K----------------------10K
4K-------------------------------6K----------------------12K (correct)
5K----------------------------8K or 9K------------------16K
6K-------------------------------9K----------------------19K
7K------------------------------10K----------------------22K
8K------------------------------12K----------------------26K
9K---------------------------14K or 15K-----------------28K
10K---------------------------15K or 16K-----------------31K
11K---------------------------16K or 17K-----------------33K (correct)
12K---------------------------18K or 20K-----------------37K
13K---------------------------20K or 21K-----------------39K (correct)
14K---------------------------21K or 22K-----------------43K
15K---------------------------22K or 23K-----------------46K

I hope that's understandable - it looks like I'm getting close to 1 1/2 X the bonus when I'm supposed to be getting 2X the bonus, and usually 1K more than 3X when I'm supposed to be getting 3X the bonus. I'm hoping that indicates an area to look to someone out there. I do have a schematic, though I'm certainly not an expert at reading them - still learning. I can't figure out how the whole 2X and 3X bonus system works looking at the schematic. I'll be happy to post a scan of the relevant part of it, once I figure out what that part is...
Anyway, I've looked carefully at the bonus stepper unit - partially disassembed and cleaned it without going crazy. It all moves easily and steps up and down cleanly when I do it by hand. I did have to replace the plastic sleeve on the decrement solenoid (the old one's opening was oval and the plunger was moving in some crazy ways, which I thought might have something to do with it, but no change with the new sleeve). And the fact that it operates correctly when the bonus is 1X makes me think that the problem isn't with the bonus stepper. Is that a reasonable conclusion?
It came from a private home and seems like it was well taken care of - the insides are very clean, not alot of corrosion and I don't see any ugly home-made fixes. I've replaced all the drop targets and had to strengthen a spring on the armature that knocks down 4 out of the 5 drops in each bank that fires after you've knocked down all 10 drops. Other than that, the electrics are as I found them.
Do these symptoms indicate an area to look to someone out there? Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

Thanks, currieddog (is that an Indian dish, by the way?) I saw that on the schem. and the rollover relays under the playfield for A, B and C are pulling in when the rollover switches are activated. Between them on the sequence bank, there is an "A-B-C sequence completed" relay that doesn't have a coil, but does pull in when all 3 other rollover relays are activated - but it is a little bit sluggish but seems to be closing/opening switches as far as I can see. Those switches are hard to get to!

I'm not sure where that series relay "EE" is physically on the machine, but I'll stick my head in there and see if I can find it. I'll report back. Thank you!

And thanks John_I - yes, I'm set on 3 balls, and I know the triple bonus only applies on the last ball when all 3 rollovers have been activated. That's how I made that chart - the 3X column was always on the third ball (took a while). I'll look at the score motor again - didn't see anything obvious last time I looked, but I could have easily overlooked something. Thanks!

This isn't so easy with 57-year old eyes!!

currieddog -
I looked closely at the 4 relays you mentioned that I think are involved in the sequence bank under the playfield - the A, B, C and "rollover series completed" relays - and they all appear to be working correctly - that is, as far as I can see, the contacts are opening or closing as they should when the relays fire. I looked carefully at the wiring/solder joints and I don't see anything amiss there. I found the EE relay and it also seems to be working correctly. It pulls in and releases when each of the A, B and C relays fire...and gives me 50 points. I think that's all correct. The game is recognizing that all the rollovers have been hit, the extra bonus light comes on at the correct time - it's just that the extra amount that I'm getting is not the correct amount. So the sequence bank appears to be doing its job and telling whatever does the scoring (score motor?) that it's time for the 2X or 3X amounts - they just aren't correct. I'll get the playfield out of the way and start looking at the score motor - at this point just looking for obvious problems - loose wires, solder blobs, other shorts. I did notice that the score motor makes 1/3 of a turn when scoring a 1X bonus, 2/3 of a turn when scoring a 2X bonus, and a complete turn when scoring a 3X bonus. That seems to make sense to me, so I'm assuming that particular function is working.
Hope you guys are having a good Labor Day! It's going to be 95 and muggy here in Charlottesville today, so I'm just as happy to be in the basement with my head in my Quick Draw.

Thanks for your time, currieddog! I just pulled the J relay out and inspected it, nothing obviously wrong - solder connections looked good (I know that doesn't always mean they are), no solder blobs or wire strands shorting any of the tabs - cleaned the contacts, re-installed it and watched it in action. Seems to work normally - pulls in when any of the targets or drops are hit, gives me 500 pts and increases the bonus by 1, as it should. Looks normal to me.
I watched the LB relay too. Visual inspection was normal, cleaned the contacts, watched it work. It only pulls in at the start of the 3rd (last) ball. I do sometimes get the correct 3X bonus score, so I'm assuming the LB relay is doing its job. Sometimes I just get an extra thousand on the 3X bonus score.

Going to a Labor Day get-together now, so I won't get another chance to look at it until this evening. But I appreciate the help so far - thanks!

Thanks Woz - I'll check those tonight when I get home. Currieddog, excuse my ignorance, but what's M/B?

Oh, thanks...duh.

Thanks frb - I'll look at that thousand pt relay too. I don't think the stepper circuit could be the problem since it counts down correctly and scores bonuses correctly if the bonus is only 1X. It only scores incorrectly when the bonus is 2X or 3X. Is my thinking about that correct?

Well, I just spent some time looking at the score motor switches. I took the whole 1A stack of switches off and cleaned the contacts, examined the solder tabs, checked the gaps and how they were opening and closing as the platters turned...and it all looked good to me. I was able to look closely at the switches on 3 1/2 D, 2D, 3B - and they all looked good as far as I could tell - the gaps between contacts didn't look so small that there might be some contact bouncing, they all seemed to close and open cleanly as the motor turned. The switches on 4B were alot harder to get to - had to pull the motor all the way out of the bottom board to see them, but I think I saw them, cleaned the contacts, saw that they were opening and closing as the motor turns. Again, I was looking carefully at the solder tabs and they all looked good. Some of those switches were tough to get to so maybe I missed something. I checked the 1000 pt relay (L) in the head and that looked good as well, and seems to work normally.

So I'm looking at the schematic and wondering what could cause the 2X bonus to be about 1.5X (more or less)... I'm not good enough at reading schematics and understanding the switch logic to be able to puzzle that out.

I put everything back together and played some games to make sure I hadn't screwed anything up, and it worked fine - but the problem is still there, and still the same - about 1.5X bonus when it should be 2X, an extra thousand or two on the 3X bonuses, and the 1X bonuses score perfectly. I did score over 141K on one game though, so the evening hasn't been a total waste. It's after 11PM here, so I'll quit for tonight and pick it up again after work tomorrow.

Thanks again for everyone who's suggested places to look for the problem...it's a huge help knowing someone else is out there thinking about it with me.

Hey curriedog,

Thanks for replying. I did pull the AX relay a while back but didn't do anything to it but inspect it - I had heard how finicky those relays are, so didn't mess around too much with it. But I'll check it again....maybe clean the contacts.

There wasn't anything stapled inside the cabinet, but is this what you're talking about on the schematic?

QD score motor switches (resized).jpg

I did have a chance to go in and look at the AX relay. All the solder tabs look good, no visible shorts...not much movement on that sucker! But I cleaned the contacts (carefully) and made sure they were apart and touching when they were supposed to be. Put it back in and played a couple games - no change...same bonus problem. It's the same for both players, by the way - don't know if I mentioned that, or if it matters.

Nothing like that inside, I'm afraid. Man, that's useful - I'd love to have that detailed switch information handy. What game is that one from?

Maybe I can dig one up from PBR or online somewhere.

Spent some more time looking at the score motor again - put on my magnifying glasses and really looked at 4A and 1A - both of which get 5 pulses every motor turn (well, 1/3 turn). Cleaned all the contacts with alcohol and a flexstone, watched them as I rotated the motor by hand - they all looked good. Took a good long look at relay 4B, LB and AX, filed and cleaned contacts, watched them as the relay moved...it all looks good to me. Did the same with Motor 2D and Motor 3B and Motor 3 1/2 D. I must be missing something obvious...or maybe not obvious, but I'm definitely missing something.
I do notice that the bonus stepper doesn't count down smoothly - it seems to count down a little erratically. But I don't know if that's important since I'm still fuzzy on how exactly those bonus pulses get to where they're going. With a 2X and 3X bonus, does the thousands coil get 2 or 3 pulses before the bonus stepper counts down 1?
I'll try again tomorrow. Thanks all.

I don't know what it means, but maybe somebody out there will be able to make sense of it. I was looking at the E relay, which is the bonus collection relay, and it works fine. But I was watching the bonus stepper while I tripped the ball drain switch, and watching how it ratcheted back to the zero bonus position. When the bonus is 1X, the stepper decrements evenly, and I can hear the thousands chime register once each time the decrement solenoid fires. When the bonus is 3X, the stepper also decrements evenly, and I can hear the thousands chime register 3 times each time the decrement solenoid fires. But when the bonus is 2X, the decrement solenoid fires in a pattern that is regular, but not even....it's 2 quick firings, then 2 slower firings. I can hear the thousands chime ding once on each of the quick firings, and twice during each of the slower firings. So it's kind of: X...X...X......X...... That would explain the approximately 1.5X bonus that I'm getting when I'm supposed to be getting 2X. So apparently, something is causing the decrement solenoid to fire in that uneven pattern. Anyone have any idea what that would be?

I can't believe a 1.5X bonus is intentional. What do you get when you get an odd number of bonuses? The rules sheet does say it should be 2X. Mine, and it sounds like yours too, is consistent, but it's got to be consistently wrong. But that's an idea - if I can't find the problem, I can just change the rule sheet!

Hey DNO - this is the page from the instruction book that describes the scoring. I'm sure it's supposed to be 2X when A, B and C have been rolled over except on the last ball (I have it set for 3-balls). And it would be just as easy (probably easier) to make the bonus stepper decrement solenoid fire 4 even pulses rather than short, short, long, long - which is what's happening now and giving us the 1.5X bonus. So I'm looking for something that pulses unevenly in that pattern to fire that decrement solenoid. Hopefully, more time looking at the schematic will clarify something for me.

But I'm glad someone else has had this problem - nice to know this thread will help someone besides just me.

QD rules (resized).jpg

Hey curriedog,

My score motor switch card is history, but I did find the same information on page 7 of the manual...sorry it took me so long to find it.

So it looks like I should be focusing on motor switches: 2B (fourth sw), 2D (second sw), 3B (second sw), 3 1/2 D, 4A (inside sw) since the subtract bonus solenoid is firing in that odd pattern?

I have not checked the coils with a multimeter yet. They're definitely working, pulling the armature in, so would I be looking for a partial short or something?

QD motor switch list (resized).jpg

Had a chance to dig in to it last night and really look at all those score motor switches mentioned above. Pulled them off the score motor and examined them, cleaned them with alcohol and 800 grit sandpaper, squeezed the contacts with needlenose pliers, resoldered a couple of the wire connections, put them back on the motor and turned it by hand to watch them open and close....no change. It's got to be something else.

Maybe I can get the bonus ready to give 2X, then unplug the score motor and turn it by hand, see what the bonus stepper does in slow motion?

Thanks woz - I'll try it then. I suppose there's a danger of burning out a coil somewhere if you let the motor stay still too long? How long is too long?
And thanks for the tip about the switch dogs - I thought that might be a possibility if this is some sort of timing issue, so I checked them and they are in the correct position. I'll check them again, though, since I'm running out of ideas.

Hi Howard,

Nope...still stymied by it. Still getting about 1.5X bonus when I should be getting 2X. Got to be the bonus subtract coil getting some extra pulses, but I haven't been able to figure it out.

Thanks for that reply, Mark. I'll re-read it tomorrow when I'm less tired and have the schematic in front of me, and I'll see if I can make sense of it all. I never did fully understand the bonus system on this game, so troubleshooting it has been....frustrating. I do have 2 12-volt lights ready to go, so I can see how the bonus decrement solenoid is firing. I've been listening to the 1000 pt chime as I watch the bonus decrement solenoid fire, but I'll hook up the lights and see if that tells me anything new. I'll check motor switches 2D and 3B too.
This game does seem to be sensitive to switch timing. There was a point where it was giving points to player 2 at the beginning of player 1's ball, and that was solved by opening the gap on the ball trough switch so it closed just a hair later. Touchy little thing! If the game weren't so much fun, I'd have given up long ago.

Thank you!

Hi slochar - I didn't think of that. It looks just like every other Gottlieb I've poked my head into - which were all US versions. I haven't noticed any unusual markings...how would a 50Hz machine be marked? The voltages are all US normal - 6V for the lights and 27 or so for everything else.

I've been looking at any labels I could find on the inside of the machine, on the transformer - anywhere, and I don't see anything that would indicate that the machine was built for a European market, or that it should be running at 50Hz. So I'm just going to assume that it's an American machine and the problem has something to do with timing of switches.

I don't have a reference to be able to tell whether or not the bonus cadence is faster than "normal". So for now, I'll go on the assumption that it's a 60Hz machine.

MarkG - I was re-reading your post, trying to make sure I understand it. I have the game set on 5-ball, which means that I only get 2X bonus on the fifth ball, and only if I have NOT rolled over all 3 rollovers (A,B & C). If I HAVE rolled over all 3 rollovers, I get 3X bonus (theoretically), but otherwise, I should get 2X bonus. So regarding that 4th pulse from motor 4A, that means that relay 4B (A-B-C sequence completed relay) is not tripped, so no pulse can get through the motor 3 1/2 D switch in the Subtract Bonus Unit circuit. Is that correct?

I did just check that motor switches 2D and 3B are wired in parallel, and they are.

@MarkG, I just hooked up the bulbs across the bonus subtract solenoid lugs and attached a video that shows what I saw. I tried to explain this in a much earlier post, but it probably wasn't very clear. As you can see, the solenoid does fire and rotate the stepper each time it gets a pulse....but why this rhythm of pulses? You can probably hear in the background that the thousand chime is being hit in a regular rhythm.

Thanks for thinking about this...I've been stumped for a while now.

Actually, I just tried to attach the video file and it's too big and I'm not sure I'm allowed to attach videos in any case. I'll try to email you a link to it. Sorry about that!