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(Topic ID: 224597)

Gottlieb "Quick Draw" bonus scoring issue


By paulace

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 77 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by rolf_martin_062
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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motor 2B switches (resized).JPG
0Fast-Draw-Work-25 (resized).jpg
Quick Draw 3x Bonus scoring (resized).jpg
3X switches (resized).JPG
Quick Draw (resized).jpg
Motor 2D (resized).JPG
0Quick-Draw-Work-02 (resized).jpg
Quick Draw Motor Sequence Chart (resized).jpg
Quick Draw Bonus Count (resized).jpg
Quick Draw 2x Bonus scoring (resized).jpg
Quick Draw 1x Bonus scoring (resized).jpg
QD motor switch list (resized).jpg
QD rules (resized).jpg
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QD score motor switches (resized).jpg
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There are 77 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 1 year ago

The LB relay fires for the last ball, and the 4B relay fires for the A-B-C sequence completed. Either one by itself will give you a 2x bonus. If you look at the two schematics in reply #40 either one of those relays firing will change the paths used to count the bonus from the 1st (1x bonus) schematic to the 2nd (2x bonus) schematic. So last ball or sequence completed (but not both) will use the paths highlighted in the 2nd schematic.

@paulace sent me a video of a miscounted 15,000 point 2x bonus offline. It took playing it over and over at half speed but I think what I heard is this:
Quick Draw Bonus Count (resized).jpg
As described earlier the Score Motor 4A an 2B switches generate 6 pulses each time the motor turns through one cycle. The 6 pulses all find their way to the 1000 point relay to add points. But only every other pulse, specifically the even pulses, should get to the Bonus Unit Subtract solenoid. The net effect should be 2000 points for each Bonus Unit step.

I think what's happening is that in each Score Motor cycle one extra pulse, pulse number 3 of 6, is somehow getting to the Subtract solenoid. So for each complete score motor cycle 6000 points are scored but the Bonus Unit steps down 4 times instead of 3 which results in a 1.5x bonus instead of a 2x bonus. This will vary a little based on how many steps the Bonus Unit takes during the last Score Motor cycle because once the Bonus Unit reaches zero, the E relay relaxes and no more stepping or scoring happens.

So the question is how is the #3 pulse getting from the Score Motor 4A switch that generates it to the Subtract solenoid? That's not obvious:
Quick Draw Motor Sequence Chart (resized).jpg
The 3rd Score Motor 4A pulse doesn't really overlap with any of the other switch stacks. So there's likely a maladjusted switch or a short somewhere. It's not a dead short because pulse #1 for example doesn't get through but it's a repeatable short.

You might try unplugging the game and slowly turning the Score Motor by hand to the point where the the 4A switches close for the third time in a cycle. Then have a good look around to see what other switches are closed. Then see which of those switches is open the first time the 4A switches close.

If this doesn't identify a culprit you could (if you're comfortable working with the power on) queue up a bonus, unplug the Score Motor service jack, close the outhole switch and slowly turn the score motor by hand until the 4A switches close the third time. The Subtract solenoid will probably make a nasty noise but use a piece of paper or something non conducting to open up the closed Score Motor switches one by one. That might reveal the problem.

/Mark

#52 1 year ago

Ah, thanks as always, HowardR. (Nice to hear from you!) Here's a link to the video on youtube:

#53 1 year ago

MarkG - thank you for that analysis (and the time it took!). I believe you're right about the rhythm of the pulses. So is it only a score motor switch that I'm looking for that's closed when it shouldn't be? I am comfortable (probably too comfortable) poking around in there with the power on, so I could try the second troubleshooting option as well if I don't burn out the bonus subtract coil. But I'll start with the first option. Just want to make sure I'm looking only on the score motor for the switch that's closed and shouldn't be.

Looking at the motor sequence chart, I wonder if switch 2C could be staying closed a little too long....

Thanks for the help - I never would have been able to break it down that clearly myself.

#54 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

So is it only a score motor switch that I'm looking for that's closed when it shouldn't be?

I wouldn't rule much out yet but since it seems to change as the Score Motor turns (e.g. open for pulse 1, closed for pulse 3) I think a Sore Motor switch is more likely. Switch 2C is a possible candidate.

Looking at it more closely 3B is already in the circuit and could allow pulse 3 to get through if it closes too soon. That would dovetail nicely with my earlier question about why they used a 3B switch at all to enable the 4th pulse and not a 3 1/2D switch. It's also possible that 4A is closing a hair too late. That too could cause an overlap with 3B and allow an extra pulse to get through.

#55 1 year ago

I agree with Mark on scrutinizing score switches.

My advice, be thorough.

Run a point file, not a flexstone, mildly across each point. If you are comfortable with Nic's dremel method then go for that approach. Wipe the debris out after filing with a qtip dipped in alcohol.

Then inspect each switch manually for wipe.

Going through the complete score motor, if you have the main relay board out of the game, only takes 20 minutes or so. When in the game it is more difficult and will take longer. You may find going through the few switches thoroughly is all you need.

One last thing. If this has been covered I apologize for repeating. While it is quite uncommon, check the switch dog positions for L(long) and S(short). The switch dog is the tab that contacts the switch stack at each cam position. If someone before you has put them in the wrong place it can cause these type timing issues. Where the position is engineered is listed on the schematic at the score motor diagram.

#56 1 year ago

Hi
here the positions (S or L) of the switchdogs from the schematics, Greetings Rolf

0Quick-Draw-Work-02 (resized).jpg
#57 1 year ago

Thanks for all the suggestions! Back in post 32, I pulled and cleaned switches 2B, 2D, 3B, 3 1/2 D and 4A. I think I checked all the switchdog positions then as well...but I'll check them again to be sure and report back. I don't think I was checking the timing of the switches, though - especially on that 3rd pulse from 4A to see if any other switch was closed then that shouldn't be.

I do use Nic's dremel method to clean switches, so I'll use that, make sure they're clean and moving a bit after contact, but then I think Mark is right - I need to see if there's a closed switch somewhere on that motor during that 3rd pulse from 4A. I may not be able to get to it tonight, but I'll definitely do it over the weekend and let everyone know what I find. Hopefully something... The bottom board is still in the machine, so I hope my back holds up for this exercise!

Thanks again!

#58 1 year ago

Oh my God, I think it's fixed! I checked the position of all the switch dogs, and they were correct according to the schematic (thanks Mike and rolf). As MarkG suggested, I turned off the machine, turned the score motor until the 3rd tooth was closing 4A (third pulse), then looked around at the other switches involved (and not involved).

I eventually saw that 2D was closed but just at the very end of it's bent actuator's length (the actuator hadn't quite cleared the cam on the score motor) and wondered if the 3rd 4A pulse could be getting through that switch as it looks like it could on the schematic. I hoped that if I bent the actuator so that the switch cleared the cam and opened a little bit earlier, and was thus open while the 3rd pulse was being sent, that the 3rd pulse wouldn't go to the subtract bonus unit. And I'll be damned if it didn't work!

I've attached a photo of the actuator that I bent. I pinched it so that the curve was a little more severe and it cleared the post just a little bit earlier. This was taken after bending the actuator - you can see that it just barely clears the post now.

This problem's been bothering me for over a year. I want to buy everyone who helped on this topic a beer! If any of you guys are ever in Charlottesville, VA - tell me and I'll treat you to beer (or whatever you drink), pizza and pinball (there's a good arcade here). I'm not even kidding. I couldn't have done this without all the help explaining how the bonus circuit works and MarkG's analysis of the pulses. Thanks so much to everyone!

I've attached a photo of the machine, because I know we all like our baby pictures, and my wife and I just re-stenciled the cabinet a few weeks ago. She used to stencil things for a living - that came in handy! She cut the stencils by hand out of mylar sheets.

Now it's on to a Slick Chick at the arcade! Thanks again, everyone!
Motor 2D (resized).JPGQuick Draw (resized).jpg

#59 1 year ago

Cool! Did that fix the 3x bonus issue too?

#60 1 year ago

Looks like you have 31” legs on Card Whiz. Is that by design? Or do you have 27.5” legs on QD and Flipper Pool.

Either way, congrats on your success.

#61 1 year ago

Ah rats - MarkG - I got so excited by the 2X working that I didn't check the 3X. It still is only intermittently correct. That Ed Krynski was just too clever for his own good!

I just played 3 games with 3X bonus at the end. I got:

10K bonus turned into 33K
11K bonus turned into 33K (correct)
10K bonus turned into 31K

I'll play more games a bit later today and see if I can get some sort of consistency, or a pattern. The offer of beer, pizza and pinball still stands, though!

MikeO - It's all an illusion! Quick Draw and Card Whiz have 27" legs, Flipper Pool has 28.5" legs. Apparently, they were drilling the leg holes all over the place. We have a Royal Flush and Target Alpha (both 1976) at the arcade here and they're both very high, like my Card Whiz. Quick Draw probably had 28.5" legs from the factory, but it felt kind of high as my wife and I are both on the shorter side of things, so I just put 27's on it so it would be more comfortable for both of us (If I listen very hard, I think I can hear Steve Young still crying). I got Flipper Pool with those legs on it, and as you can see, it was short enough to be comfortable for us, so just left them on. Maybe people were shorter in 1965.... I know I was.

#62 1 year ago

Ran some tests on 3X bonus this morning. Nothing consistent except that it's always extra bonus, never less than it should be. I'm guessing that means another switch is open a little too long, preventing the bonus decrement coil from firing as often as it should and allowing a couple too many bonus pulses to make it through?

Bonus -- Actual bonus awarded
1K - 4K --- Correct
5K --------- Correct once, +1K once
6K --------- +2K once, +1K once
7K --------- +2K once, correct once

etc....nothing consistent.

Would the lights help pinpoint when the pulse to the bonus decrement coil ISN'T happening?

Looking at the schematic, the 4B relay is involved this time (on the 3X bonus) so those 4B switches would be opposite as shown on the schematic? So that would mean that motor 3 1/2 D can then get involved? Are these the relevant switches then?

3X switches (resized).JPG
#63 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

Ah rats - MarkG - I got so excited by the 2X working that I didn't check the 3X. It still is only intermittently correct. That Ed Krynski was just too clever for his own good!
I just played 3 games with 3X bonus at the end. I got:
10K bonus turned into 33K
11K bonus turned into 33K (correct)
10K bonus turned into 31K
I'll play more games a bit later today and see if I can get some sort of consistency, or a pattern. The offer of beer, pizza and pinball still stands, though!
MikeO - It's all an illusion! Quick Draw and Card Whiz have 27" legs, Flipper Pool has 28.5" legs. Apparently, they were drilling the leg holes all over the place. We have a Royal Flush and Target Alpha (both 1976) at the arcade here and they're both very high, like my Card Whiz. Quick Draw probably had 28.5" legs from the factory, but it felt kind of high as my wife and I are both on the shorter side of things, so I just put 27's on it so it would be more comfortable for both of us (If I listen very hard, I think I can hear Steve Young still crying). I got Flipper Pool with those legs on it, and as you can see, it was short enough to be comfortable for us, so just left them on. Maybe people were shorter in 1965.... I know I was.

So Card Whiz has the correct legs and FP and QD shipped with 31" legs.

As for your triple bonus issue, are single bonus and double bonus each scoring the correct count?

#64 1 year ago

Yeah, I'd hoped that fixing the 2x issue would fix the 3x issue but I was pretty sure it wouldn't. This one I don't have an answer for yet so maybe you can help sort out what's going on.

The 3x bonus schematic looks like this:
Quick Draw 3x Bonus scoring (resized).jpg
Since the LB (Last Ball) and 4B (Sequence Completed) relays are both active only the red paths operate. To review the 4A and 2B Score Motor switches generate 6 pulses per Score Motor cycle. All of them get sent to the 1000 point relay. For a 2x bonus we needed the Bonus Subtract solenoid to fire three times per cycle so that each bonus position would add 2000 points. What I think should happen for a 3x bonus is that the Subtract solenoid should fire twice per Score Motor cycle so that each bonus position adds 3000 points. If you look at the Sequence chart, the Score Motor should get the 4th (of 5) pulses from the Score Motor 4A switch via the 3 1/2D switch and the only pulse from the Score Motor 2B switch. That's two pulses per cycle.

What I don't get though is how the 4th and 6th pulses are supposed to award a 3x bonus. I'd expect the 3rd and 6th pulses to be used. It seems that by using the 4th pulse you're allowing 4000 points to be added for one bonus unit position and then 2000 points to be awarded for the next position. But that's not what should happen and that's not what you're seeing either.

So could you experiment by turning the Score Motor manually with a 1000 or 2000 point bonus and see what happens to the Subtract solenoid on each of the 6 pulses?

On a 1000 point bonus I'd expect the Subtract solenoid to fire on the 3rd pulse even though the schematic seems to indicate that it will fire on the 4th pulse.
On a 2000 point bonus I'd expect the same thing, plus a 2nd step on the 6th pulse.

#65 1 year ago

Hi MarkG
another strange wiring is on the E-Bonus-Unit-Score-Relay - see the JPG. Greetings Rolf

0Fast-Draw-Work-25 (resized).jpg
#66 1 year ago

Hi Rolf,

Yeah, I noticed that too. You'd think that just the Zero position switch would be enough to break the E/Bonus Unit Score relay lock in circuit. It's not clear to me what value the On Subtract switch adds. I wonder if perhaps there was a concern that the Zero position switch might chatter and open briefly as the Subtract solenoid fires and the 2nd switch was meant to insure that even if that happened the E relay would remain active.

#67 1 year ago

Hey guys,
I just made another video showing the 3X bonus in action. Maybe it will tell better minds than mine something important:

I'll read through what Mark and rolf just posted and get my head wrapped around it before I say anything stupid. Yes Mike, the 1X and 2X bonus is scoring correctly.

Mike - yes, i believe Card Whiz has the correct legs, tall as it is. The others don't - I've read different things, but it seems like pre '76, they used 31" legs. All these machines came from people's homes, and I have no idea their history before that, if legs were swapped in moves, etc., so I really don't know if any of these legs were original, though Quick Draw did come with 31" legs. It felt tall to me. As they stand now, the front of the lockdown bars are 34 1/2" on Quick Draw, 38" on Card Whiz, and 35" on Flipper Pool. I'm 5'9" and my wife is 5'4", so I'm probably keeping Quick Draw and Flipper Pool on the low side of things with 27" legs just because it's comfortable for us. But if I have a hundred bucks to throw around, I might put 28 1/2" legs on Quick Draw one day....it feels a little bit low right now. I was just kidding about Steve Young crying in the other post - he seemed really laid back about it and said, "Meh, just put it where it feels comfortable for you." So I did....

Thanks, guys!

#68 1 year ago

Mark, I just set the game for ball 5, 3X bonus with 1K and 2K ready to go, unplugged the score motor and manually moved it with the light on the subtract bonus coil. It does indeed fire on the third pulse from 4A on the 1K bonus, and fires on the 3rd and 6th pulse on the 2K bonus. You can see that in the video as well, the pulses to the subtract bonus coil are evenly spaced. "Fire - chime - chime - Fire - chime -chime - etc.

I just did the same thing; unplugged and rotated the score motor by hand, watching the score and light (subtract coil pulse) with a bonus of 12K. It worked perfectly - my score went up by 1K every time there was a pulse on 4A, and every third pulse made the subtract coil fire, so it counted down normally with the correct amount of bonus (3 X 12 or 36K). And the pulses to the subtract coil are on pulses 3 and 6.

And additionally, every 6th pulse happens without the switches on 4A moving, so that pulse is coming from 2B, as you'd expect. If I close 2B manually, it does add 1K to my score and decrements the bonus remaining by 1. So that's all working as expected.

So.....could it be a switch bouncing or something that's happening at full speed that isn't happening when I slowly turn the motor by hand?

There are 2 switches involved on 2B - one that decrements the bonus count, and one that adds 1K to the score:

Could the switch that adds 1K be bouncing but not the one that decrements the bonus count? In other words, the 3rd switch is bouncing and the 4th isn't? i may open the third switch on 2B a bit and see what happens. Keep your fingers crossed.

motor 2B switches (resized).JPG
#69 1 year ago

No...no luck. I took the entire 2B switch stack apart, cleaned everything, examined the lugs and solder joints closely for anything that could short, separated the contacts just a little bit, and put it back together....same result.

Mark, you mentioned that you watched my video the other night in slow motion. Could you do that again with the latest 3X bonus video and determine where the extra thousands actually happen? I don't know if it's consistent from game to game, but it might mean something.

It's after midnight - I'm tired so I'll call it a night. Thanks again for all your effort, guys!

#70 1 year ago

But before I quit, I thought "what about the switch on 4A that adds 1K to the score?" And guess what....I opened that switch (the outer of the 2 on 4A) and it works correctly now. I'll test it a few more times tomorrow (well, for years actually), but I tested it twice at 10 and 15K bonus, and it added the correct bonus both times. So it was one switch on motor 4A that was gapped a little too closely.....Geez!

I've gotta say, after working through this with you guys, I'm more impressed than ever with the engineers and designers who came up with this switch logic. Yes, it's touchy - but when it works, it's amazing what they were able to do with one motor and a bunch of switches!

And I'm impressed with the minds, talents and generosity of you folks that help schlubs like me on this forum. Thanks once again to everyone who gave this their thought and time: MarkG, MikeO, curriedog, HowardR, rolf, woz and anyone else you see in these 70 posts! I'm more grateful than I can say. And I'm serious about the pizza and beer - Charlottesville, VA - just let me know if you find yourself here and food and pinball are on me!

****************************************************************************
In summary (for anyone who doesn't want to slog through all 70 of these posts), there were 2 problems: a leaf spring switch activator on motor 2D that was causing an extra pulse to the "subtract bonus unit" and thus making it count down too fast and short me bonus on 2X bonuses, and then a switch on motor 4A that was gapped too close, awarding me random extra bonus on 3X bonuses as the switch bounced.

***************************************************************************

Now I'm going to bed!

#71 1 year ago

I'm glad you got the 3x bonus sorted too. Those fast 70s Gottlieb bonus counts can be hard to diagnose at speed. I also wonder if something didn't drop on your score motor at some point or if maybe the game was moved without the locking pin which keeps the Score Motor from rotating out from its cradle. That might explain how a couple of switches got out of adjustment.

One thing still doesn't add up for me though. You said that during the count down the Bonus Unit steps on the 3rd and 6th pulses which is what we expected and is what your video shows. But that doesn't match what the Motor Sequence Chart shows.

For extra credit would you be willing to just turn your Score Motor with the power off and see when exactly that 3 1/2D switch closes? The Sequence Chart says it should close on the 4th pulse (of Score Motor switch 4A) but your game behaves as if it closes on the 3rd pulse. If you just turn the Score Motor by hand when exactly does the 3 1/2D switch close?

Thanks.

#72 1 year ago

Hey Mark,
Yes, of course I'd be happy to earn a little extra credit. That would be interesting if the sequence chart has been wrong for 44 years and nobody caught it! *laugh* I was also a little confused by why a mis-adjusted 4A wouldn't have manifested its incorrect scoring ONLY on the 3X bonus. The 4A switch is common to every mode of bonus scoring, isn't it? But I know it's working now!

I'll report back later this morning when I have a chance to turn the score motor by hand and tell you when 3 1/2 D closes.

I'll send you a link to something via email today, too...thanks!

#73 1 year ago

Funny you should mention the score motor locking pin. This game never had one in place (still doesn't). I drove up to Philly to pick this game up and was pretty gentle with it, but even so, I suppose the score motor could have flopped around and a couple switches gotten bent out of shape. Good call!

There was a guy back in post 26 - DNO - who's QD always scored the same way and he thought it was normal. I hope he's still paying attention to this thread.

#74 1 year ago

I just went down and rotated the score motor by hand. You're right, switch 3 1/2 D closes on the 3rd pulse from 4A, not the fourth. 3 1/2 D closes just before the 4A switch closes on the 3rd tooth, and stays closed until just after the 4A switch opens again.

I'll adjust the sequence chart on my schematic.

#75 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

I just went down and rotated the score motor by hand. You're right, switch 3 1/2 D closes on the 3rd pulse from 4A, not the fourth.

What would be the best way to document a corrected Sequence Chart so it will be easy to find? Post it here after 70+ replies, or in a new topic, or somewhere else? Anyone have a suggestion?

#76 1 year ago

I would think if you posted it here, buried as it is, nobody would ever find it. I'd suggest a new thread with topic heading "Quick Draw score motor sequence chart error"

....or something equally catchy. At least it would come up if somebody searched for Quick Draw.

Thoughts?

#77 1 year ago

Hi MarkG , paulace +
some thoughts to Your post-75:
- ask the pinside officials to create an new EM-Subforum "Faults documented" --- and then we start a topic for a specific pin (having a fault in the schematics)
- ask the pinside officials to create an new EM-stickie - "user 'faults' " --- and we pinsiders post in there.
- we do what HowardR did to "Bally Hokus Pokus" --- post stuff in pinside to the machine - see https://pinside.com/pinball/machine/hokus-pokus - scroll quite a bit down to "Gallery - featured images" AND CLICK ON "visit the gallery for all images" - so here https://pinside.com/pinball/machine/hokus-pokus the middle one of unknown pictures shows the schematics that HowardR posted.
- we post a new topic with the word "fault" in the title (and also the name of the pin) - hoping pinsiders do search by title - searching fault (on a specific pin) --- (I write again what paulace wrote in post-76). (((I started several topics like https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/switch-dog-switch-dog-switchdog-gottlieb-score-motor , https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/player-unit-gottlieb-4-player-game-royal-flush , https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-activating-of-lb-double-bonus-relay-gottlieb-4-player-pin ))). Well, not faults but stuff "nice to know". Greetings Rolf

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