(Topic ID: 198531)

Gottlieb Pop Bumper Issue


By CUJO

2 years ago



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  • 31 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by CUJO
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Gottlieb Caveman G07-13 RGB Monitor manual.pdf (PDF preview)
Page_29-37-38-39 (resized).jpg
cavemanscoring (resized).jpg
PBB080 (resized).jpg
cavemancenterpbhack (resized).jpg
cavemanctrpbsleeve (resized).jpg
cavemanrightpbnormal (resized).jpg

#1 2 years ago

Got a Caveman that developed some random 3000 point scoring midway during a ball in play.
Finally isolated the extra points being generated by a malfunctioning center pop bumper.
When I press down on the ring, I get points and when I release the ring, I also get points.
This does not occur on the other two pop bumpers. These only score as I press down on the ring.

Since I have never worked on a Gottlieb pop bumper before, does one feel it may just be a switch issue/adjustment or
might I just need to rebuild the whole assembly?

I haven't looked real close on the underside yet as it won't be easy to get my body twisted/contorted to view this area easily.

I will try to take pics to post soon.

#2 2 years ago

I'd clean, straighten if need be, and adjust the leaf blade switches first. Then see where you are at.

LTG : )

#3 2 years ago

Lifted PF today and took pics. The middle pop bumber with the double scoring issues has a wiring hack. Whether that is the culprit or not at this point, not sure.
Very difficult to take pics, let alone inspect those dual points on each PB.

The pic with the green wire is the middle center pop bumper, then another pic with the black tubing pulled back on it.
The other pic is the right pop bumper which has two wires going to the base or up into the pop bumper. The left is the same as the right.

Is there a pic or drawing anywhere of how the pop bumper assembly looks on a Caveman? Or a SYS 80A game?

THANKS!

cavemanrightpbnormal (resized).jpg

cavemanctrpbsleeve (resized).jpg

cavemancenterpbhack (resized).jpg

#4 2 years ago

The last picture - I'd slide the black tube down over the solder joint so it can't touch bare metal on the bracket. Looks like for the light, wouldn't have anything to do with your issue.

You issue is with the stack of leaf blade switches.

LTG : )

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

The last picture - I'd slide the black tube down over the solder joint so it can't touch bare metal on the bracket. Looks like for the light, wouldn't have anything to do with your issue.
You issue is with the stack of leaf blade switches.
LTG : )

Yes, I only did that to show what was under the sleeve. Looks like the other two PB's have dual wires going to the flat braid where someone made it one wire to the braid on the center PB.

#6 2 years ago

Started a game with playfield up so I can toggle the pop bumper activation plate.
The right and left work pops correctly but for the life of me, I don't see any reason why the center pop is scoring and re-firing when I release the ring from the playfield. The gaps look right on both point sets. I'm not seeing the cause of this problem.

This occurs at all different attack points (360 degrees) around the ring when the ring is released up, even ever so lightly.

Points never touch as I watch them and the spoon action as I release the ring.

Flat Out CrAzY!
Anyone have a clue?

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from CUJO:

Anyone have a clue?

A short between the leaf blades, or wiring ?

LTG : )

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

A short between the leaf blades, or wiring ?

I agree with Lloyd here. If someone was doing some sloppy soldering near that pop bumper, there's probably a chance that they may have dripped a bit of solder splash between the stacks. It could be just enough that the vibration of moving the ring up and down is tripping the switch.

#9 2 years ago

Here is a video of the switch action from the center pop bumper.
Coil fires on contact and release of the leaf switch points.
For giggles, I did the same test with the right pop bumper leaf switch and no double action as it should be.
Is it possible the diode on the coil went bad? Would that cause this action?

#10 2 years ago

Maybe you could swap the pop bumper boards around to see if the problem follows.

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from mikat11:

Maybe you could swap the pop bumper boards around to see if the problem follows.

At this point I'd try any logical suggestion as I really don't have very much Gottlieb knowledge.
I was just reading about the SYS80A pop bumper boards and I think I'll go take a look to see if that's a pretty easy thing to try.
Thanks!

#12 2 years ago

Good call Mikat11,

It is the Pop Bumper card, the one on the left in the pic. I swapped the connector bewteen the center and the left board in the pic.
(Pic shoes connector in swapped position)

Seems like a simple enough card to fix. Not a whole lot going on.

Anyone know what usually goes out on these originals?

I'd like to keep the game as original as I can by repairing it.

Thanks!

PBB080 (resized).jpg

#13 2 years ago

The first step would probably be reflowing all the solder connections on every component. Then maybe suspect the 74xx chips.

#14 2 years ago

As mentioned before reflow the header pins. There is a simple factory mod that need to be done on the boards ... Sorry but I don't have the info at hand right now. I'm sure someone else can point you in the right direction.

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from woz:

As mentioned before reflow the header pins. There is a simple factory mod that need to be done on the boards ... Sorry but I don't have the info at hand right now. I'm sure someone else can point you in the right direction.

Those mods have been done. You can tell so by the jumper wire beside the chips that replaced a diode.

#16 2 years ago

Thanks!
I ordered a Rottendog PBDB080 from Big Daddy today.
Only $24.00 shipped..can't beat that..then I'll be up and going again while I "experiment" on the original board later.

1 month later
#17 2 years ago

Update:

Well, I thought the new Rottendog board was the answer but problem seems to have resurfaced. It's not just the center pop though. I'm getting 3000 points randomly adding to the score while ball is in play. Usually I can hit the right flipper to keep adding 3,000 point increments. When the next ball goes into play, the issue disappears for a while. Sometimes for the next ball or two, sometimes not at all.
I did inspect, clean points on all 3 pop bumper stacks. The skirts are getting a little old and the back left one can hang a little so I think I'll rebuild all three.

The pop bumpers are the only ones that score 3,000 points if I'm correct.

I've banged the playfield when this phantom scoring starts happening but can't seem to get it to do it then.

Any ideas?

#18 2 years ago

Does Caveman have lane change?
Maybe a diode is bad and when activating the right flipper it's counting a pop bumper score.
Maybe there is some foreign matter on a diode board...
Do a switch test.

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

Does Caveman have lane change?
Maybe a diode is bad and when activating the right flipper it's counting a pop bumper score.
Maybe there is some foreign matter on a diode board...
Do a switch test.

Gonna have to learn how to activate the switch test on a Gottlieb. I do have the manual for Caveman but not the expertise yet
like I do diagnosing a Bally/Williams or Stern pin.

#20 2 years ago

I do not have a Caveman manual, so a scan would be great.

#21 2 years ago

On sys80b, there's a red button inside the door, to the left. That starts the audits & if you keep pressing it, it goes to test mode. Don't know if yours is the same.

#22 2 years ago

Now I am confused how I am getting 3,000 points by hitting a pop bumper when the game acts up.

According to the scoring chart, I am only supposed to get 100 points (5 ball ) or 1,000 point (3 Ball) game.

cavemanscoring (resized).jpg

#23 2 years ago

Can I immediately put a Gottlieb in Switch Test during a game when the offending phantom scoring starts and then activate the right flipper to see which switches are causing the phantom scoring?

#24 2 years ago

Update: Ok put Caveman in Switch Test right after the offending phantom 3,000 point issue reared it's ugly head and held the ball from draining.
I saw SW16 pop up which isn't even listed in manual?
I shut game down, power on and let everything reset, ran SW test 18 again, Got the 99 code which means no switches closed.
This is going to be a doozy unless someone knows a better way to isolate.

#25 2 years ago

Without the manual/schematics it's hard to say.
A wild guess would be a short between strobe 1 and return 6.
But it sound more like a electronic problem....
Maybe U4 (6532) is acting up.
It can also be the much cheaper Z11 (7404) or the Z14 (7400).

I would replace Z11 and Z14 and see what happens....

1 month later
#26 2 years ago

Ok, gonna get back to trying to fix this recurring issue.

I have checked all the switches on the playfield and all seems fine ie as not closing by vibration.
Seems to start the 3000 point scoring issue when the lower two drops on the left 4 Bank target are hit. Then just hitting the right flipper will add 3000 points a flip.
Doesn't happen every time but that's my observation so far.

Was thinking of just opening up the game and pulling every connector , cleaning, reseating, inspecting them first for a possible
intermittent connection.

Is this one of the SYS1 games that needs that Ground mod?
Is there a way I can check mine easily to see if it was done prior to my ownership?

#27 2 years ago

Check the diode of the drop targets.
One of them is broken or shorted.
They are in the same row as the pop bumper "count" switches.
The main problem with Gottlieb is that they show the lowest switch number and not any other (I might be wroung).

Ground mods do not hurt and most of the time they are mandatory.

Page_29-37-38-39 (resized).jpg

#28 2 years ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

Check the diode of the drop targets.
One of them is broken or shorted.
They are in the same row as the pop bumper "count" switches.
The main problem with Gottlieb is that they show the lowest switch number and not any other (I might be wroung).
Ground mods do not hurt and most of the time they are mandatory.

Thanks. I will and I will report back.

1 month later
#29 2 years ago

For the people going over this topic.....
I've found a manual for the monitor used in Caveman.
Here is a copy of the file for everyone who needs it.

Peter
www.inkochnito.nl
If you like my work, please send me a donation via PayPal.

Gottlieb Caveman G07-13 RGB Monitor manual.pdf

2 weeks later
#30 2 years ago
Quoted from CUJO:

Thanks. I will and I will report back.

I think I did look a while back and never followed up. I'll look again this weekend and report.

2 weeks later
#31 2 years ago

Update: Fixed..and BIG THANKS to Inkochnito !

Turns out the phantom 3,000 point scoring was being generated by Drop Target #4 Right.
When dropped, the contacts of Switch 71 must have been intermittently touching and not staying closed.
I finally was able to isolate this by realizing the phantom scoring would cease when the right drop target bank would reset.
So if all (7) drop targets were dropped before #4 Right, no foul.
With some great advice and patience from Inkochnito, I first suspected a possible bad diode but all the diodes tested fine.
Thank again for the help!

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