(Topic ID: 299021)

Gottlieb Pioneer start up and scoring unit reset problem

By rlbohon3

2 years ago


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  • 16 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Gerty
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    start pioneer (resized).png
    Pioneer Start relay (resized).jpg
    Pioneer score reel reset (resized).jpg
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    #1 2 years ago

    I'm working on a Gottlieb Pioneer and am having a start up problem. Long story short, the game doesn't seem to want to shoot the ball from the outhole over to the shooting lane and really "start" a game. I can trick it by actuating the AX relay to make the playfield come alive, and switches/solenoids all work, but when the ball drains, it doesn't advance from ball 1 to ball 2 (or any progression) but it does kick the ball back over to the shooter lane. I've studied the schematic to the best I can understand so far, but can't figure out why it's not working right.

    Here is a short video to demonstrate what I'm talking about:

    This game was previously working for the owner but was having an issue with the 10's unit on player 2 not resetting to 0, even though the game would restart. I've checked those scoring unit switches too and couldn't find anything. Supposedly the owner tinkered w/ the AX relay switches. I've tweaked on those too to get it operating right but still having issues w/ the game. Any thoughts? I've fought it for hours w/ no luck.
    -Leebo

    #2 2 years ago

    AXs are tough with the short throw. I got mine tuned in by, with the game off, manually activating and deactivating it. I looked at each switch one at a time and seeing if it changed state each time and had enough overage to slightly move the short switch blade. For the make-breaks I concentrated on one blade at a time. It worked.

    #3 2 years ago
    Quoted from hjh632:

    AXs are tough with the short throw. I got mine tuned in by, with the game off, manually activating and deactivating it. I looked at each switch one at a time and seeing if it changed state each time and had enough overage to slightly move the short switch blade. For the make-breaks I concentrated on one blade at a time. It worked.

    Yep, very similar efforts tried so far. As far as I can tell, I have this AX relay and associated switch stacks working right, but will keep trying. What I’m having a tough time understanding is why the game behaves the way it is, and exactly what should it be doing (ie why doesn’t it put the ball in the shooter lane from start, and why does it not advance the ball count).

    #4 2 years ago

    In your video the first time you hit the replay button the game doesn't reset but the 2nd player light comes on. That's a clue to what might be going on:
    Pioneer AX relay (resized).jpgPioneer AX relay (resized).jpg
    The first time you hit the replay button the S/Start relay should fire which in turn should fire the AX/Reset Control relay. Instead your game is firing the CX/2nd Player relay. For that to happen it seems that the Make/Break switch on the U/1st Ball relay in the red box isn't doing the right thing, either because it's not adjusted properly or because the U relay isn't firing.

    /Mark

    #5 2 years ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    In your video the first time you hit the replay button the game doesn't reset but the 2nd player light comes on. That's a clue to what might be going on:
    [quoted image]
    The first time you hit the replay button the S/Start relay should fire which in turn should fire the AX/Reset Control relay. Instead your game is firing the CX/2nd Player relay. For that to happen it seems that the Make/Break switch on the U/1st Ball relay in the red box isn't doing the right thing, either because it's not adjusted properly or because the U relay isn't firing.
    /Mark

    Thanks Mark! I just checked and the U/1st Ball relay is not firing. Next, I checked/cleaned the Make/Break switch on the H/Tilt Hold relay thinking that might have been the cause; no difference. Upon closer inspection of the U coil, I noticed a loose solder joint. Bingo! *That* problem is solved; on to the next... which has to do with the player 2 100's unit not resetting to zero upon game reset.

    Maybe I should start a 2nd thread, but I'll go ahead and post here. The game was resetting properly however the hundreds digit would not physically reset back to zero, even though it thought it was at the zero position. While inspecting the switches on the hundreds scoring unit, I noticed one of the switches wasn't opening like all of the other scoring units. After adjusting/cleaning the switches to change phase exactly like all of the other scoring units, it now does not attempt to reset the 2nd player hundreds unit to zero upon game reset. If I manually advance the digit to zero (or trip the switch that closes at the zero position), the game completes the reset sequence. Also, the hundreds digit does advance whenever a playfield switch worth 100 points is closed, so I at least know the coil and connected wires are functioning.

    Here's another video. Again, HUGE thank you Mark for your help. Looking at the schematic, focusing on 'Add 2nd Hundreds Unit' coil, is it the '2nd Hundreds Runout' and switch P4B that could be suspect? I'm not sure what is meant by P4B on the schematic.
    -Leebo

    #6 2 years ago

    I think the #2 100s score reel switches need ajdustment. Use player #1 100s reel as a comparison. Start your switch comparison with both reels at zero.

    #7 2 years ago
    Quoted from bonzo71:

    I think the #2 100s score reel switches need ajdustment. Use player #1 100s reel as a comparison. Start your switch comparison with both reels at zero.

    Yep, lots of adjusting/cleaning those #2 100s switches already but no luck so far. Feeling like something else is going on.

    #8 2 years ago

    The Score Reel switches are pretty fussy. Adjusting them visually only gets you so far if you don't understand what they're supposed to accomplish:
    Pioneer score reel reset (resized).jpgPioneer score reel reset (resized).jpg
    Every Score Reel has two circuits that drive it as shown in the top half of the schematic above. The lower of the two paths, through the M/100 point relay switch, is used during game play to add 100 points. The upper path, through the highlighted Runout switch is used only during reset. In your case reset pulses from the Motor 1A switch on the far right are not getting to the Score Reel because either the highlighted Runout switch or the P4B switch on the Player Unit (in the red box) isn't closed. The Runout switch only opens when the Score Reel shows a zero. It blocks any more reset pulses from getting to the Score Reel once the reel has reached zero.

    The P4B switch is mounted on the Player Unit in the backbox. See https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-socer-player-unit#post-5953227 for an example map of the Player Unit switches.

    There is another switch on each Score Reel called the Reset switch in this schematic and shown in the bottom half of the schematic. It too closes when the Score Reel reaches zero and allows the Player Unit to move on to the next position once all four Score Reels of a given player have reset.

    In your case it seems that either the Runout switch or the P4B switch in the top half of the schematic does not close which keeps the Score Reel from advancing to zero during reset. It also seems that the red Reset switch in the bottom half is stuck closed so the Player Unit doesn't wait for the Score Reel to reset.

    Generally it's safer to use the wire colors from the schematic to identify the suspected switches rather than adjusting them all.

    #9 2 years ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    Generally it's safer to use the wire colors from the schematic to identify the suspected switches rather than adjusting them all.

    YES!

    #10 2 years ago

    After cleaning and a minor adjustment to the P4B switch, it appears to be working fine now! It didn’t at first, but I continuity checked the P4B and runout switches; they checked out fine then it started working properly. Maybe there was a little grit on the contacts after cleaning. Dunno… but it’s good for now.

    Big thanks again to everyone for all the help. Constantly learning this stuff!

    6 months later
    #11 2 years ago

    I too have a Pioneer with a start up issue as well. While playing the ball got stuck in the kick out hole. I slid the glass down, flicked it out and let it drain. What I found odd was it did not move to the shooter lane or recognize the ball drain. I shut down the game. Later when I went back to check/clean that switch the game turned on but in tilt. The only way to get a partial start sequence was to manually hit the start relay. I get the score reels to reset, drop targets and most of the rest of the sequence. What I don't get is the ball kicked into the shooter lane or any playfield operating other than the lights. No ball in play lights either, naturally. The game over relay, "Q" pulls in as soon as the power comes on as well as the First Ball relay "U". The hold relay "R" pulls in after the start relay is manually pulled in. During the reset operation "AX" relay Reset control relay, pulls in after the start relay is activated then releases once the reset is complete. The game is set on free play with credits showing. Every time the game is shut off it always turns on in tilt mode. I shopped this game about 3 years ago and it has been playing great. I know I'm missing something simple. I did go over the PB4 switch and also the whole player unit.( I've been chasing another odd issue player unit related, but I have not gone back to it. Howard was helping me in an older thread..) Any thoughts? In the meantime I'll start studying the schematics....

    #12 2 years ago

    You might consider starting your own topic...

    When you hit the Start relay does it hold itself in for 1/3 of a Score Motor turn or does it release right away?
    After reset is the Q/Game Over relay active? That would explain the dead playfield and ball in play lights.

    /Mark

    #13 2 years ago

    I thought I may start a new topic...
    The start relay releases right away. It does initiate the score motor etc, As soon as I turn on the power the Q/ Game Over relay pulls in and stays in including after the start sequence ends. I'll give that a look.

    #14 2 years ago
    Quoted from Gerty:

    The start relay releases right away.

    It should hold on for 1/3 of a Score Motor turn until the Motor 2B switch opens. If it's not one of these switches isn't closing:
    Pioneer Start relay (resized).jpgPioneer Start relay (resized).jpg

    #15 2 years ago

    Will it stay on if the Q/Game Over relay and the U/1st Ball relay are energized or do they need to de-energize? It seems according to the start sequence they are supposed to once the S relay is energized.

    start pioneer (resized).pngstart pioneer (resized).png
    #16 2 years ago

    You were correct. I looked at the low hanging fruit first and discovered the slam switch on the coin door needed cleaning. A quick clean and adjust and I'm back up. Thanks so much. Now on to my Space Mission... LOL

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