(Topic ID: 337243)

Gottlieb Pin-Up Scoring Issue

By Playdium

11 months ago


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  • 23 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 months ago by jrpinball
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#1 11 months ago

I'm having a unique problem with the scoring on the two hole kickers. At the top of the playfield are two hole kickers that offer 500 and 5000 points when lit. The alternating relay controls these for scoring. When lit, both holes will correctly score 5000 points. But when not lit, they should score 500 points, any they do not. The left hole kicker will consistently score 4500, and the right will score 3500 points. All other targets score correctly as well as the drop targets. The WOW does score correctly and it does rotate through the drop targets correctly.
I think it is a timing issue. I've checked all of the score motor switch dogs and they are all positioned correctly. Your thoughts?

#2 11 months ago

I thought I would ask before going further with this. "Steve" suggested that the motor shaft may have slight play in it due to a worn upper bearing. This could cause wobble and all kinds of timing issues could occur. Breaking down the score motor isn't my favorite thing to do.

#3 11 months ago

Check to see that the stand-up target switches (double switches) are open. I once had a "Pin-Up" which had weird scoring issues, and the problem was one of the stand-up targets had a closed switch.

#4 11 months ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

Check to see that the stand-up target switches (double switches) are open. I once had a "Pin-Up" which had weird scoring issues, and the problem was one of the stand-up targets had a closed switch.

Thanks Joe. I'll be digging into this today. What happens is when the ball is in the hole at 500 points, as it pauses to be kicked out, the score increases. With the 5000 points scored, the ball kicks as soon as points are registered.
I'll pull the motor board today and start work on the score motor. All of the stand up switches are gapped properly. Such an odd condition!

#5 11 months ago

Well, it's not the score more shaft. It has no wobble to it. I did a complete teardown of the score motor and will re-assemble it this week.

#6 11 months ago

It seems like you’re getting 100x5 correctly, but a Thousands switch is closed when it shouldn’t. Maybe look at the alternator? Does it have a m/b that’s making both sides? (hundreds and thousands) Spitballing.

#7 10 months ago
Quoted from AndrewP:

It seems like you’re getting 100x5 correctly, but a Thousands switch is closed when it shouldn’t. Maybe look at the alternator? Does it have a m/b that’s making both sides? (hundreds and thousands) Spitballing.

I'll have to look into that. Too busy with "honey do's" these days.

#8 10 months ago

Back onto this issue. I don't believe this is a score motor issue. I just re-assembled the score motor and checked all of the switches for normal operation. See video. https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjAFVRk

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#9 10 months ago

Both "B" relay and "C" relay fire when the 500 point kick out energizes.

#10 10 months ago

Reply sent in private message

#11 10 months ago
Quoted from Playdium:

Both "B" relay and "C" relay fire when the 500 point kick out energizes.

If B and C energize together, most likely one of these 2 make/break switches on the Alternating (Q) relay is out of adjustment.

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#12 10 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If B and C energize together, most likely one of these 2 make/break switches on the Alternating (Q) relay is out of adjustment.

Yes, I thought the same, but they appear to be gapped properly.

#13 10 months ago

Digging further on this, I found that removing the "F" relay by unplugging both Jones plugs, (WOW Control Relay), the 2 hole kickers score correctly. I have to manually operate the "Q" Relay, (Alternating Relay), to move the WOW feature to score both amounts at each hole kicker. "Q" is powered by "F".
Not seeing a short on the Jones plugs, but I'll tear it down again.

#14 10 months ago

I found a 200 ohm short on the relay disc #A-8934. Nothing seen as an obvious cause. The fields don't look shorted. I ended up replacing the disc with an NOS one, and reassembled it. This did not resolve the issue.

#15 10 months ago

Looking at the schematic I see that the Alternating (Q) relay is controlled not by the WOW Control (F) relay disk but instead by a switch on it.
With that said, I doubt that the problem you described is in the F relay.

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#16 10 months ago
Quoted from Playdium:

Digging further on this, I found that removing the "F" relay by unplugging both Jones plugs, (WOW Control Relay), the 2 hole kickers score correctly. I have to manually operate the "Q" Relay, (Alternating Relay), to move the WOW feature to score both amounts at each hole kicker. "Q" is powered by "F".
Not seeing a short on the Jones plugs, but I'll tear it down again.

Quoted from HowardR:

Looking at the schematic I see that the Alternating (Q) relay is controlled not by the WOW Control (F) relay disk but instead by a switch on it.
With that said, I doubt that the problem you described is in the F relay.
[quoted image]

I thought it over and the switch I pointed to with a red arrow could be out of adjustment:

For a switch to work 3 things are necessary:
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening

#17 10 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Looking at the schematic I see that the Alternating (Q) relay is controlled not by the WOW Control (F) relay disk but instead by a switch on it.
With that said, I doubt that the problem you described is in the F relay.
[quoted image]

Yes that switch is gapped properly and functions correctly as the cam rotates. I'll be trying to isolate this today.

#18 10 months ago

Post #8 schematic snippet shows all of the rollover switches are commoned with a Brn-Wh-Red wire. Where does that common connect to?
Possibly score motor switch 1C ?
If switch 1C normally closed switch doesn’t open correctly, the rollover switches will be powered longer and enable the Q relay to power both relays.

#19 10 months ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Post #8 schematic snippet shows all of the rollover switches are commoned with a Brn-Wh-Red wire. Where does that common connect to?
Possibly score motor switch 1C ?
If switch 1C normally closed switch doesn’t open correctly, the rollover switches will be powered longer and enable the Q relay to power both relays.

I'll look into that.

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#20 10 months ago

Motor 1C is functioning normally.

#21 10 months ago

Next I would unplug the score motor service plug and recreate the scenario problem by slowly turning the score motor by hand to find out when both scoring relays are pulling in.

#22 10 months ago

Resolved! Very odd condition though. I found the BLK-YEL and the YEL-BL-R rollover switch contacts were shorted. I gapped the switch and the problem is solved. Correct scoring now for the 500 point hole kickers.
But looking at the schematic, I'm not sure how the random points were scoring. (That "P" switch is on the Pop Bumper that activates the Pop Bumper relay)
Many thanks for the help JR, Howard, and PinballDaveH.
The machine operates 100% now.

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#23 10 months ago
Quoted from Playdium:

Resolved! Very odd condition though. I found the BLK-YEL and the YEL-BL-R rollover switch contacts were shorted. I gapped the switch and the problem is solved. Correct scoring now for the 500 point hole kickers.
But looking at the schematic, I'm not sure how the random points were scoring. (That "P" switch is on the Pop Bumper that activates the Pop Bumper relay)
Many thanks for the help JR, Howard, and PinballDaveH.
The machine operates 100% now.
[quoted image]

Glad you fixed it. Similar to what I suggested. Gotta watch those double switch contacts on the stand up targets and rollovers too.

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