(Topic ID: 330119)

Gottlieb Paul Bunyan - Score Motor Pic Needed

By ibis

1 year ago


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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by ibis
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Gottlieb Score Motor 3 (resized).jpg
Gottlieb Score Motor from catalog (resized).jpg
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#1 1 year ago

Does anyone have this game, I need a picture of the score motors rotating disk.

Long story short, a very well seasoned EM tech and myself was trying to figure out why the 50, 100, and 150 lights were not alternating, they were stuck on 150 and would only light the other two(briefly) when the score motor turned a full rotation(these switches are located on the score motor). After we played with it a bit more, we realized that the position of the pins were out of whack when the motor found home. We looked at the shaft 'key' and the set screw on the keyed shaft was tight and looked aligned correctly. Our total assumption is, we decided the rotating disk is the incorrect one for this game. Maybe someone took a spare they had and tried to replace it. This was supported by a weird 'home made' pin, basically a screw, someone put on the rotating disk. We thought maybe the original broke off and this was a "fix" or the original was lost during an earlier repair and they tried to make do with this one. Pic of mine is included and this is where the motor stops in the home position.

So in short, I am in need of a pic to verify this assumption. Ultimately, if this is the case, what are my options? I know finding a parted PB can be difficult. Can these be reproduced? Should I pray to the EM Gods?

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#2 1 year ago

Strange that it only has the one added pin/screw. I would think the top plate would have either just one, or two at 180º apart, or three at every 120º. I'd have expected the original (Call it 0º), the added one at 120º, then one at the existing hole at 240º.

#3 1 year ago

My Dancing Lady has three pins on the top disc of the score motor cog, the third pin is taller than the two other and operates one switch on the 'E' position, switch stack '3". Obviously a dancing lady is no the same but multi player Gottliebs can have a lot of switches around the score motor. There is a picture on the IPDB website of the interior of a bunyan but its too small to make out how many pins it should have.

#4 1 year ago

So I got a partial picture in my inbox from a collector who sold his so we cant open it up to look at it. The partial pic did not show the pins, but he stated he only remembered one. Mine has three(tall, short one behind the tall one, and the home made one). A full pic will solve this mystery lol

#5 1 year ago

The E level switch stacks require a longer pin than the D level switch stacks. The Paul Bunyan schematic shows that one of the three pins above the top cam should be longer to activate the E level switches:
Paul Bunyan Score Motor (resized).jpgPaul Bunyan Score Motor (resized).jpg
The longer E level pin is a way to randomize features in the game since it will only activate E level switch stacks every third time the motor runs on average. This game should have E level switch stacks in positions #1 and #4, each with a single make/break (1C) switch.

I think any upper score motor cam with a longer E level pin will work, or you could add one to the empty hole at about 5 o'clock in your photo.

#6 1 year ago

So I think what this tells me is, the tall one and short one(behind the tall one) should be there. But the home made one may be in the wrong position, as you state, should be in the bottom semi-right of the pic. How do you know is should be there and not the larger hole at the 3 o'clock position? I can make the change this weekend unless someone posts a pic to verify otherwise.

#7 1 year ago

The Score Motor cams and pins are all symmetric; they all repeat three times around the cams. If you were to slice the motor into three equal pieces the pieces would all be the same. The optional E level pin is the exception - it is taller than the other two pins but in the same relative position.
Paul Banyon score motor 2 (resized).jpgPaul Banyon score motor 2 (resized).jpg
The smaller empty hole to the left of the gap in the top cam in your photo is symmetric with the other pin I can see. The larger hole doesn't seem to have any others in the same relative position.

And those two next to each other don't seem right either.

#8 1 year ago

Magnified photo from IPDB, a bit hard to see, but on the left side of the disc are the two pins and none others that I can find. Nobody that owns the machine has sent in a photo? That would make things much easier!

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#9 1 year ago

Here’s a picture of the score motor from my project Paul Bunyan. Let me know if you need anything else.

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#10 1 year ago

ant, that is perfect! So UPDATE.....I removed the home made screw and NOW the score motor knows where home is! The game resets after being turned off/on back to ball 1 and it appears the sequesnce of operation is complete.

SECOND and what I think is the last issue.....

The 50, 100, and 150 alternating lights for the saucer do not alternate. As the score motor turns it flashes them, but it remains on the 150 at all times. By the look at your picture ant, the 'triggers' or guides that close the switch stack as it turns are different on mine, not as pronounced nor as long on position 1 and position 4. Is it possible these were replaced? I wonder if I should modify the existing ones to be activated when its in the stopped position.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from ibis:

the 'triggers' or guides that close the switch stack as it turns are different on mine, not as pronounced nor as long on position 1 and position 4. Is it possible these were replaced?

I have not replaced the 'triggers' on my score motor, but I cannot guarantee they are original.

My game resets and can play full games but has scoring issues, primarily with the ABC rollovers and targets. To my knowledge, the hole value lights function correctly - they alternate and each hole lights periodically for four times value.

Quoted from ibis:

I wonder if I should modify the existing ones to be activated when its in the stopped position.

Here are photos of my score motor at rest at position 1, followed by position 4.

Hope this helps!
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#12 1 year ago

Your actuators, or 'triggers' are definitely different than mine! I think they need replaced or modified for sure.

I was having trouble with the ABC function too and found that the reset bar on the sequence bank under the playfield was closing the single switch underneath the bank. The variance between the bar and the switch was very small! So whenever an ABC target was activated or a ABC rollover, the game thought it was a completed ABC sequence and reset the bank. Once adjusted, the only thing that would reset the bank was when D4 was closed, which signals a completed ABC sequence. It drove me mad until it was discovered.

#13 1 year ago

Wow, this has been an education. After seeing the photos of two different Paul Bunyon Score Motors contradict some of the things I wrote earlier in the topic I needed to understand why. All of the Score Motors I remember working on are symmetric apart from the optional extra long E level pin. This one is clearly not. It has two pins side by side in one of the three sections and no pins in the other two sections. What's up with that?

The Score Motor drawings on the schematic (in replies #5 and #7) don't reflect the extra short pin but looking in the parts catalog there it is:
Gottlieb Score Motor from catalog (resized).jpgGottlieb Score Motor from catalog (resized).jpg
Also not shown in the schematic or parts catalog are the D level pins missing entirely from two of the three sections. Ok, so it's a thing. But how is it used on Paul Bunyon?

I couldn't understand from the schematic how the kick out holes could score 6 different values: 50, 100, 150, or 4x those values: 200, 400 or 600. The trick is the unusual configuration of the Score Motor D and E level pins.

The first clue was the 600 point hole value. 600 points can't normally be scored with a single 1/3 rotation of the score motor (until later in the 70s anyway with some of the elaborate bonus scoring games) because usually the Motor 1A switch is used to generate multiple scoring pulses and there are only 5 Motor 1A pulses per cycle:
Gottlieb Score Motor 3 (resized).jpgGottlieb Score Motor 3 (resized).jpg
After watching a few videos I realized that it doesn't all happen in a single 1/3 turn of the Score Motor.

Essentially what happens is that any time the ball lands in one of the holes the game awards either 50 or 200 (4x) points right off the bat. But depending on where the twin D and E level pins are the ball might not be kicked out after 1/3 motor turn because the hole kickers are driven by the 3D pin which only comes around once every 3 motor cycles. If it takes 2 motor cycles for the 3D pin to reach the hole kicker switch the hole value is awarded a 2nd time for a total of 100 or 400 points (or double). If it takes 3 motor cycles for the 3D pin to reach the hole kicker switch the hole is worth a total of 150 or 600 points (or triple).

The hole value lights know where the pins are and how many cycles it will take before the ball is kicked out so they light up the appropriate hole value based on the position of the two pins. That's also why the hole values change every time the score motor runs - because the pins are in a different position

#14 1 year ago

UPDATE: I found some spare score motors from some parted games and located two actuators like in the picture. Bingo, game responds by alternating the 50, 100, 150 lights as it should!! Thank you all for helping figure this out!

Second question. If you do not complete ABC sequence completely to where it resets, will it remain 'uncompleted'? If you drop ABC in sequence, one of the lights randomly moves as some switches are hit. When the game is over, it remains that way when you start a new game. That is until the lit target is struck again, and then the ABC bank resets. I looked at some video online and two of them shows this very thing. Just wanted to confirm.

#15 1 year ago

Glad you found a solution!

Quoted from ibis:

If you do not complete ABC sequence completely to where it resets, will it remain 'uncompleted'?

Yes, the ABC sequence carries over from player to player and across games until completed.

Quoted from ibis:

I was having trouble with the ABC function too and found that the reset bar on the sequence bank under the playfield was closing the single switch underneath the bank.

I remember reading your thread about this and will keep it in mind when I tackle my project.

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Wow, this has been an education.

I always learn something from your posts!
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from ant_:

Glad you found a solution!

I remember reading your thread about this and will keep it in mind when I tackle my project.

Feel free to reach out to me anytime. The variance for this switch and its relation to the reset bar and the switch plate of D4 was very very small! If your reset bar is resetting after every time a ABC target or rollover is activated, then this is the issue for sure.

#18 1 year ago

So had some games on Paul Bunyan and worked great!!! Then the score motor would not find home. If I manually reset the bar on the rest bank in the cabinet, the game acts like it's on the 5th and last ball. It seems like something is not telling the reset coil to reset the bank when starting the game. I do have a schematic.

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from ibis:

something is not telling the reset coil to reset the bank when starting the game

Be careful because this circuit runs on 120 volts

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#20 1 year ago

Thanks Howard, my bud and I just systematically went through everything on that circuit and it all checks out OK. Is it possible its something else not causing the game to start?

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