(Topic ID: 290461)

Gottlieb North Star won't add credits or reset play

By Kaps

3 years ago


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Topic Stats

  • 18 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by DaMoib
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 3 years ago

I picked up a North Star on Saturday, and it was working when I got it home. When it was plugged in, the backbox would light up, and to start a game I just pressed the reset button on the front. Was working great until yesterday when all the power to it died. I could get no power, even to the back box. I searched on here and on pinrepair.com and thought it may be a fuse. I checked the fuses, and the *looked* good (didn't test with a multimeter) and then after reading some more looked at the coin mechanism. When I manipulated the dime switch nothing happened, but when I manipulated the quarter switch backbox power was restored. Alas, the credits are at 0 and I cant seem to add credits, or start a new game with the reset. Now the backbox is lit, but can't get anything else going.

I will certainly continue reading, but I thought it may be a really simple thing that I'm missing. The previous owner said he'd never dealt with anything like this, he just always pressed reset to start a game.

What should I be doing next?

#2 3 years ago

If the Start relay (SB) on the 10 bank doesn't trip when you press the Replay button, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156
Be careful because this circuit runs on 120 volts

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#3 3 years ago

Howard - what's that switch on the bottom left of that snippet that's in series with the W relay? I can't read the letter on it?

#4 3 years ago

Paul - it's a "W" (same as Bank-A-Ball)

#5 3 years ago

Thanks Larry - so that's its own lock-in switch then until motor 2B releases it, I guess. So the only thing that turns on the W relay is the extra chute switch, which energizes the 120V side of the transformer, and thus the R relay (above the snippet), which keeps power going to the transformer through that R switch, since the W relay also makes the score motor turn, which opens motor 2B and turns W back off again, right?

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but where is that extra chute and what is it for? Just trying to understand the logic of why everything is arranged the way it is.

#6 3 years ago

Yes, that's how the extra chute switch powers up the machine.

The extra chute (set up to accept quarters in Kaps case), is capable of awarding multiple games per coin drop. He just has a coin entrance plate with two slots in it and two coin mechs on the door (if I understand your question correctly).

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from paulace:

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but where is that extra chute and what is it for?

Take a mental journey back to the 1960s. Most operators thought about game pricing as 1-coin/1-play, probably a dime for pinball. The "extra" chute lets them take in those higher-denomination quarters, which they would very much like to do. Further, they want to be able to take in a quarter regardless of whether the last game ended in a normal game-over ending (still fully powered), a tilt, or a slam tilt. The Bounce Switch and Anti-Cheat Switch seen on the bottom line cause what we now call a slam tilt, cutting off the R relay that energizes the 25-volt portion of the circuit.

Thus, inserting a quarter needs to re-energize the game if it had been slam-tilted or if this is the first activity since power was turned on at the start of the day. The W relay has to do some stuff up in the 25-volt zone: turn the score motor and step up the credit unit.

BTW, if you take a mental journey back to the 1950s, it would be a nickel in the 1-coin/1-play chute and 5 or 6 games from the quarter in the "extra" chute.
.................David Marston

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If the Start relay (SB) on the 10 bank doesn't trip when you press the Replay button, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156
Be careful because this circuit runs on 120 volts
[quoted image]

Thanks so much! I'm a real Newb to EMs and fairly new to pinball machines generally, how hard is this? It looks pretty complicated. Are there are youtube videos showing the general process?

#9 3 years ago

Hi Kaps
in Your post-1 I read "credits are at zero" --- here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1683&picno=27671&zoom=1 we see in the lower left corner the Credit Unit. Have the main power cord unplugged (Safety Reasons) - see TWO Coils are mounted on the Unit - one for to add Credits (step up the Unit) - can You manually step up one or more steps ? Doing so see how a rod mounted on the "wheel with tooths, gear" does actuate - CLOSE (?) This switch is to be manipulated ( a blade heavily bent or using a Jumper-Wire on the Solder-Lugs on the Switch) ALWAYS CLOSED - and You have set the pin for "free play" - simply press the Start-Button (Front of the Pin) to start a Game. Greetings Rolf

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from dmarston:

The Bounce Switch and Anti-Cheat Switch seen on the bottom line cause what we now call a slam tilt, cutting off the R relay that energizes the 25-volt portion of the circuit.

David is correct, although for games from the early 60s (like yours) and earlier, the above would actually turn off ALL power to the machine. In other words, the 120 VAC supply to the main power transformer would be shut off.

As others have noted, when these types of machines are powered off, they are designed to power up when you insert a coin or press the replay button. That is why the coin door switches and the replay button circuit are at 120 VAC.

If you are interested in why the games were made this way, here's a post that talks about the history of this circuit:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottileb-wedgehead-newbie-has-some-questions#post-3538594

- TimMe

#11 3 years ago

Thanks guys....I love learning this stuff!

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Kaps
in Your post-1 I read "credits are at zero" --- here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1683&picno=27671&zoom=1 we see in the lower left corner the Credit Unit. Have the main power cord unplugged (Safety Reasons) - see TWO Coils are mounted on the Unit - one for to add Credits (step up the Unit) - can You manually step up one or more steps ? Doing so see how a rod mounted on the "wheel with tooths, gear" does actuate - CLOSE (?) This switch is to be manipulated ( a blade heavily bent or using a Jumper-Wire on the Solder-Lugs on the Switch) ALWAYS CLOSED - and You have set the pin for "free play" - simply press the Start-Button (Front of the Pin) to start a Game. Greetings Rolf

Thanks Rolf,

I tried this and no dice. It's still as dead as a doornail. I'm wondering where I should be looking next...

Steve

#13 3 years ago

It's on to following the red line on Howard's schematic... identify the location of the components on the schematic within your machine, assemble your tools (jumper wires, gloves, meter, a good light source and a healthy fear of 120 volts) and follow the troubleshooting with jumper wires procedure.

We're all here if you have any questions!

#14 3 years ago

So I was examining things further and it looks like the reset switch has been modified. Maybe this is supposed to be normally open?

IMG_3903 (resized).jpgIMG_3903 (resized).jpg
#15 3 years ago

That's the anti-cheat switch, which should be normally closed. *Although as I look at the North Star schematic (both Howard's above and others on Pinside), it is drawn as normally open - but that cannot be correct. I've attached a Bank-A-Ball schematic for comparison. Anti-cheat, shutoff and bounce switches are all normally closed. If any one of those three switches were normally open, the machine would never be able to start...

The fact that it is bent like that is an indication that a previous owner over-adjusted it to guarantee it is closed. There's still a possibility that it is not operating correctly and you can use the jumper to test it by connecting the two solder tabs for that switch together and repeating your test.

BaB 120v (resized).jpgBaB 120v (resized).jpg
#16 3 years ago

By the way Kaps - that last photo you posted is an example of really bad switch bending. When you bend switches, you want to bend them right where they come out of the stack, so the leaf stays mostly straight.

#17 3 years ago

I'm happy to say that North Star is back up and running. DaMoib worked at it with me and after an hour or two of testing things, she started working again. Unfortunately, we are not 100% sure what fixed it, but DaMoib has an idea that I think he will be posting here.

Just want to say how grateful I am for the generosity of this group! The expertise is amazing, but the willingness to share is truly inspiring. Thanks all (especially @damoib)!!!

#18 3 years ago

After a FaceTime debugging session, we believe the SB relay was latched on and the SB M/B switch that controls the motor turning is intermittent. It would explain the lights being on and the coin chutes and replay button not working due to the fact that the 120v SB M/B switch was powering the transformer and NOT the coin drop/new game circuit path. SB latched with a motor control switch failure is also a deadly embrace that would survive multiple power cycles in an attempt to clear the failure.

Manually engaging the reset arm on the bank cleared SB and restored normal operation.

Time will tell if the theory is correct - OP’s son more than willing to perform the extensive play-testing required to validate or disprove it.

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