(Topic ID: 287491)

*SOLVED* Gottlieb Mustang Help with dead scoring issue

By DirtinLa

1 year ago


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#1 1 year ago

Bought a Mustang that is the absolute most gorgeous machine on the inside I have ever seen... had a few issues but was playing. While sitting there had the 15A fuse begin to blow. Had a fried pop-bumper coil. ordered a new one and put it in and it didn't work... used some jumper wires and rather than trouble shoot the whole loom I jumped from a working bumper next to it to give it fire. Anyway it worked but the machine became scoreless. when I reversed the workaround it is still scoreless. Everything resets fine. upon reset the 10Pt bell dings once and the second you hit any switch/rollover/pop it dings and then you can hear the coil bind up. At no point will it register any scoring.
I have cleaned all the jones plugs twice and looked for broke wires. seems everything from the star rollovers on down are not functioning?

Can anyone shortcut me to a possible cause without me having to troubleshoot every 10 pt switch and relay? I've already gone through and checked for the obvious. solder blobs switch misalignment stuck burnt switches etc etc. I was reading about series relay malfunctions and checked that all look good?

any suggestion or schematic needs I have them.

As always thanx in advance

-=Fred=-

#2 1 year ago

Check the operation of the 10 point score reel unit. When manually pushing in the coil plunger a small switch should open when plunger pulls in all the way. If this doesn’t happen the 10 point relay will not release the score reel coil.
When doing this and relay releases and immediately pulls back in , a playfield switch is probably closed.

#3 1 year ago

I pulled player 1 10 point score reel. i manually advanced it and nothing happened at all. like it was dead. it mechanically advanced the reel but that was it.

observations: game starts and goes all the way through the start regimen then you hear 1 ding and 10 point relay closes and stays closed i'm presuming freezing up the machine. none of 10 pt scoring items do anything . when i hit a 100 pt pop bumper you here the bell and relay pulls and won't let out causing it to loudly hum... no scores are registering on the reels.

seems there is a switch stuck on the board but i cant find it

i've even disconnected the chimes thinking that was what maybe binding,

ive been thru the 10,100 1000 relays and the scoring relays found one wire

off the 1000 pt reel but that didnt fix the problem...

help please

#4 1 year ago

Verify better that player 1 score reel coil is actually working. When you manually advance it to non-zero when game is off, and then start a game, does it reset to zero too? Verify whether pl 1 10 pt score reel is locking up too, or ONLY the chime and 10 pt relay. Or pop coil(s) or relay(s) too.

What happens if you start a two player game and let first ball drain to go to player 2? Same exact locking up except pl 2 10 pt reel etc. lock on instead?

If you cannot find a stuck switch on top of the playfield - - with your bumpers all hooked up with your workaround, does each one fire and release when activated? If you still had a dead one it's possible its score switch happens to be stuck closed causing the lockup right off the bat, which wouldn't release because the pop solenoid plunger doesn't pull in and open the switch there to release the pop and 10 pf relays. Steered me there since the whole thing started with that fried pop coil from previous owner.

>>when i hit a 100 pt pop bumper you here the bell and relay pulls and won't let out causing it to loudly hum>>
Hmm 100 points too or is that a typo? Does that pop bumper fire and release, or does it stay on, or not fire... and the 100 pt relay is stuck as well?

On the suggestion of manually pulling in pl 1 10 point reel solenoid, you merely want to make sure the normally closed switch near the solenoid is opening. Don't know if you are activating it with game off, or when you are in the 'stuck' condition.

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Verify better that player 1 score reel coil is actually working. When you manually advance it to non-zero when game is off, and then start a game, does it reset to zero too?
i manually advances every score reel all reset back to -0-
Verify whether pl 1 10 pt score reel is locking up too, or ONLY the chime and 10 pt relay.
only the chime and relay
Or pop coil(s) or relay(s) too.
once the game and you activate any pop bumper both the bumper and relay and the relay (switch stack) hums loudly

What happens if you start a two player game and let first ball drain to go to player 2? Same exact locking up except pl 2 10 pt reel etc. lock on instead?
when you start a 2nd player the machine does an immediate 1st player reset allowing no 2nd player

If you cannot find a stuck switch on top of the playfield - - with your bumpers all hooked up with your workaround, does each one fire and release when activated?
yes
the workaround bypassed this cause it wasn't working---->If you still had a dead one it's possible its score switch happens to be stuck closed causing the lockup right off the bat, which wouldn't release because the pop solenoid plunger doesn't pull in and open the switch there to release the pop and 10 pf relays. Steered me there since the whole thing started with that fried pop coil from previous owner.
i see no switches stuck at all

>>when i hit a 100 pt pop bumper you here the bell and relay pulls and won't let out causing it to loudly hum>>
Hmm 100 points too or is that a typo? Does that pop bumper fire and release, or does it stay on, or not fire... and the 100 pt relay is stuck as well?
the pop bumpers are 199 pt bumpers so yes they are doing it also

On the suggestion of manually pulling in pl 1 10 point reel solenoid, you merely want to make sure the normally closed switch near the solenoid is opening. Don't know if you are activating it with game off, or when you are in the 'stuck' condition.

switch is fine

#6 1 year ago

just to clarify, upon reset sequence, the 10 point relay pulls in, energising the 10 point chime coil but the reset motor will stop, showing all zero's in player displays?

at this point you are hearing hums? the 10 point relay energised and the 10 point chime coil energised, but the 10 point score reel doesn't advance?

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

just to clarify, upon reset sequence, the 10 point relay pulls in, energising the 10 point chime coil but the reset motor will stop, showing all zero's in player displays?

CORRECT, start up sequence returns both 1st & 2nd player to 0 when I manually advance them

at this point you are hearing hums? the 10 point relay energised and the 10 point chime coil energised, but the 10 point score reel doesn't advance?

correct

#8 1 year ago

Is the 10 point reel humming too? If not, it could have gotten cooked and gone 'open' too when the pop bumper was stuck on and went open, since the 10 reel would have been stuck 'on' too. You'll need to test that 10 reel coil by activating it with jumper wires from another reel or other coil in the game, or check it with an ohmmeter while game is off. Does the 10 reel advance on game start if you first manually advance it to something other than zero?

#9 1 year ago

Is the 10 point reel humming too?
no
If not, it could have gotten cooked and gone 'open' too when the pop bumper was stuck on and went open, since the 10 reel would have been stuck 'on' too.
Since it resets the coil is good and working
You'll need to test that 10 reel coil by activating it with jumper wires from another reel or other coil in the game, or check it with an ohmmeter while game is off. Does the 10 reel advance on game start if you first manually advance it to something other than zero?

all score reals will reset to 0
if i start the machine and manually advance player 1 to 30 pts and hit a 10
point target the machine will ding and not register the 10 pts and then freezes
it will not ding anymore

#10 1 year ago

is the 10 point relay energised on start up?

what relay/coil freezes? or do you mean the game won't score 10 points anymore?

when it freezes, are you hearing any humming of a stuck relay, coil or solenoid?

i get how explaining and repeating yourself must be soooo frustrating, but it's a process of elimination to work out what's wrong.

#11 1 year ago

OBSERVATIONS:

pop bumper relays I have already gone thru sparking like fire works

so is the startup motor

#12 1 year ago

what relay/coil freezes?

I know the 10 pt relay for certain it may be more

or do you mean the game won't score 10 points anymore?

the machine will not score at all

when it freezes, are you hearing any humming of a stuck relay, coil or solenoid?

yes but it seems like several

i get how explaining and repeating yourself must be soooo frustrating, but it's a process of elimination to work out what's wrong.

no issues i understand

#13 1 year ago

unfortunately i was unable to view the videos

if it was me, i'd eliminate the 10 point scoring issue first.

this is what i'd do......

remove all the playfield plastics, and keep them off until the game is completely sorted out.
see if problem exists
why would it? ohhhhhh pinball, the oddities that happen.
i had an issue where the cause of a stuck scoring relay was a warped playfield plastic that when on the playfield pushed down on the leaf blade making it touch the other one ever so slightly.

look down from the top ensuring rubbers aren't causing the 10 point scoring contacts to touch, actually check every playfield switch pair.

then check the underside.

as annoying as it may seem, separating a couple of jones plugs and removing the playfield completely makes it much easier.

#14 1 year ago

funny you should mention that... that is where this major issue began.

while working the pop bumper all the jones plugs had white powder on

them so i pulled them and cleaned everyone of them. when i restarted

was when this whole major issue began

#15 1 year ago

Hmm so
1. the 10 reel does work when game is reset.
2. 10 point relay should fire the 10 pt score reel, but it isn't even though it is locked on.
3. Since 10 reel does not activate, 10 pt relay will remain locked because 10 score reel does not fire and open the 10 pt relay circuit thru it's EOS switch.
4. Only locks *after* you activate a 10 point switch so it apparently is not a stuck playfield score switch.

Are all the switches in the 10 pt relay clean and adjusted and ones that should close when it's activated are closing? No broken off/burnt switch blades/points in it? If the switch in that relay for the 10 point reel is not closing, what is happening is what would happen. Or perhaps a jones plug socket/pin is still dirty/not making contact or a wire there came loose while you were cleaning them.

#16 1 year ago

FCL, i feel your frustration man. But don't give up, you'll get there.

signed in to you tube.... still can't see videos, no biggy, just curious as to contact set up of pop bumper/s and the 15A fuse going open.
seems it was fine up until the pop bumper and fuse going open happened?

so have read, reread and reread.....

not meaning to jump ahead of frenchmarky thus confusing things, but can you tell me what happens if you try to manually pull on the 10 point relay activator plate ( the piece that moves, holding leaf switch ends that does the make and break of the contacts) away from the coil whilst locked in place/energised, like pulling against it being energised to see if the 10 point score reel advances?

another option is to remove the playfield jones plug/s and find the common and 10 point scoring switch wires and check for continuity between them, which there shouldn't be any.
although, from what frenchmarky has stated, it's not a stuck 10 point playfield switch? if i'm reading the post correctly.

#17 1 year ago

Could be the player unit in the head, too. Once reset is complete and game has begun, if the switch in it that enables 10 point scoring to go to the player 1's 10 reel is not closing/dirty, then this lockup would happen. Start a two-player game and then see if 10 point score locks up for player 2 also. If it doesn't, that would tend to isolate the problem to player 1, such as the aforementioned player unit switch. Assuming the player unit is operating with player # lights and ball # advancing on backglass as they should.

#18 1 year ago

Lots of info above. I have experience with EM’s btw. Having fixed a few in my time but I still struggle with the schematics though.

Anyway I bought the machine to resell and like everyone here I fell in love with it. And decided to keep another one Lol. It was playing fine both 1 and 2 player. Though it obviously had a mechanical issue like needing the pop bumper fixed, new rubbers and a general going through. Honestly I never took inventory of what was and wasn’t working but it did reset and do all the scores and stuff it was in playable condition. Before I could order the parts from Steve I smelled that electrical smell you never want to smell and when I touched the machine the 15a fuse blew. So I ordered a 15a breaker to make a board checker without blowing 10 fuses and I called Steve and got the bumper rebuild kit along with 3 coils. I always order extra and also a ring kit.
So I put the bumper kit in along with the new coil and the bumper didn’t work. Didn’t fire at all. So I did a quick bypass with my jumper wires and it fired. In doing all this I was looking for obvious causes and every Jones plug was dusty. No severe corrosion mind you. Just cruddy. So I wire brushed them put a tiny bit of dielectric to help em slide and put it back together. That was when I noticed nothing was working and there was a noticeable humming.
So I did all my own diagnostics before coming here cause I know some old hands know things no one else does. Lol
In doing my research I took the play field out of the equation by disconnecting the Jones plugs but it still did the same thing. But by doing that I feel I took the play field out of the equation. I looked for the obvious like broke wires. I went through all the point relays i checked most if not all the ax bx u s relay switches on down the line. I visually checked the player unit as well as the main score motor. I manually manipulated every score real and since they all reset they should be good. I triple checked all the Jones plugs. I disconnected the chimes. The coin door still works on this beauty but I had it set to free play thru switch manipulation in the back head.

Guys I’m at a loss I’m gonna play around with it some more and going to try and get those videos up. My YouTube is fred lake I will not give up. Lol I’ll let y’all know what I find. I Tru ally believe it’s something minor I am missing.

Thanx again
-=Fred=-

#19 1 year ago

its a snow i have time
1. the 10 reel does work when game is reset.
yes
2. 10 point relay should fire the 10 pt score reel, but it isn't even though it is locked on.
correct
3. Since 10 reel does not activate, 10 pt relay will remain locked because 10 score reel does not fire and open the 10 pt relay circuit thru it's EOS switch.
4. Only locks *after* you activate a 10 point switch so it apparently is not a stuck playfield score switch.

Are all the switches in the 10 pt relay clean and adjusted and ones that should close when it's activated are closing? No broken off/burnt switch blades/points in it? If the switch in that relay for the 10 point reel is not closing, what is happening is what would happen. Or perhaps a jones plug socket/pin is still dirty/not making contact or a wire there came loose while you were cleaning them.
jones are good

can you tell me what happens if you try to manually pull on the 10 point relay activator plate ( the piece that moves, holding leaf switch ends that does the make and break of the contacts) away from the coil whilst locked in place/energised, like pulling against it being energised to see if the 10 point score reel advances?

I can pull it in and out and it will stay there so does 100 (they both pull in) score reels do not advance

another option is to remove the playfield jones plug/s and find the common and 10 point scoring switch wires and check for continuity between them, which there shouldn't be any.
although, from what frenchmarky has stated, it's not a stuck 10 point playfield switch? if i'm reading the post correctly.

I just went thru every switch I saw nothing major tightened every stack and also went thru drop target and pop bumper relays

back to square 1... I soldered back on the original pop bumper wires to the rebuilt pop bumper then turned it on and started it game over relay was humming so I readjusted it them the last ball relay started to hum so i readjusted it...

rang up plyer 1 and 2 shot the ball chimes rang a few times and stopped all 3 pop bumpers worked fine...

STILL NO SCORING GRRRRR

#20 1 year ago

I am trying to run this through without a schematic. It sounds like you need to look at the schematic and trace the circuit from the 10 point relay to the 10 point reel. Did you try the second player test? When you trace the circuit path from the relay to the reel. See if there are any contacts / switches in that path. Then put a small piece of cardboard like a cereal box or heavy business card in between the contacts of every switch. See if the locking relay stops. If so, then pull the cardboard one at a time and test each time.

There are many small little things that can cause a problem like this. Hope the cardboard test helps.

#21 1 year ago

Did you try the second player test?
YES

LOOKS LIKE I HAVE MY SCORING SWITCH IN THE MAIN MOTOR IS A LIL CRISPY I'M REDOING THOSE SWITCHES NOW AND LET YOU KNOW THE RESULTS

THAT IS THE FIRE WORKS SWITCHES IN THE VIDEO

LAST RESORT ILL TRY THE CARDBOARD
When you trace the circuit path from the relay to the reel. See if there are any contacts / switches in that path. Then put a small piece of cardboard like a cereal box or heavy business card in between the contacts of every switch. See if the locking relay stops. If so, then pull the cardboard one at a time and test each time.

There are many small little things that can cause a problem like this. Hope the cardboard test helps.

#22 1 year ago

So both 10 and 100 relays are locking, and for both players. (I assume the 10 and 100 relays are not locking simultaneously but you are just activating two different playfield switches.)

Check the Hold relay, one switch in there must be closed after starting a game or ALL the score reels will be disabled, but it would not affect the reels resetting. I'm going by a my set of 4-player schems for same-era Fast Draw but I believe same principle would apply for a two-player.

With a game started, Hold relay would/should be 'on' and closing that switch.
fast-draw-dan (resized).jpg

#23 1 year ago

Here’s the schematic

84C0B142-8109-4632-B48E-17518280F237 (resized).jpeg
#24 1 year ago

i checked the hold relay all good

should i be checking the score reel?

i also redid the start motor score switches and no luck

#25 1 year ago

Can u take one more pic of the schematics - the next page up from that one above? Thanks

<<should i be checking the score reel?>>>
The reel units themselves do not appear to be the problem, they work fine in reset and you checked the end-of-stroke switches, which should be closed when reel is at rest, open when it is activated. And you can't get any of them to score. More like a circuit that is common to all of them as per scoring only, like the player unit or Hold relay.

There's a motor switch that would open to deactivate scoring when the motor was running, but yours is okay since otherwise your 10/100 score relays would never activate at all.

#26 1 year ago

Per your request

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#27 1 year ago

Having been told that working coin doors can be a huge headache. Can anyone see if my coin door could be a non scoring issue???

FF22E5E3-5617-45DF-A27B-258A4CE19A82 (resized).jpeg
#28 1 year ago

Here's how your 10 point reels would fire during scoring, slightly different than a 4 player but same idea. Not really seeing how any circuits on the coin door would affect this. If the slam switch on the door was flaking out or you pulled the coin door plug, the game would just go to game over. The only thing you haven't checked yet is the player unit switches, a stack in it would alternate up and down with each ball of each player to route scoring to the correct player reels. Could still be an open circuit at a jones plug where this circuit is going from the cabinet to the head, like the circuit from Hold relay in the cabinet to the rest of the circuit in the head, and you said problem did start after you cleaned them.

You could use a volt/ohmmeter to trace the wire colors noted on the schematics along that whole circuit path from Hold relay to the reel coils to find out where it is stopping before it gets to the reel(s).

yttytttyyjtyjtyjty (resized).jpg

#29 1 year ago

QUICK UPDATE: in checking all my relays and revamping my player unit switches i've brought myself to a start motor non stop condition how frustrating lol Have to walk away and regroup lol
BUT it looks like after an AX BX CX adjustment i may be scoring again if I can get it through a complete reset.
I'll be back!

Fred

#30 1 year ago

Update: Machine does complete startup. Problem was P5a & P5b in the player unit. Reels reset lites on etc etc but still no scoring... play field is dead except for kicker hole. In fighting the motor issue I did something and the scoring returned but went away again.

I saw this super informative video on youtube that dealt with a different machine with the exact same problem which he showed in detail the fix.

BUT

his fix isnt fixing mine... i went thru all the relays again to no avail...

He pinpoints the Q relay as the board power relay...

Anyone / someone please look over this and give me any ideas as to what may be happening please.

Thanx

Fred

#31 1 year ago

So since you've done some things... are you are still basically at same point where the point relays are locking up? What do you mean by playfield is dead - everything, flippers, slingshots etc. except the kick holes? Are GI and feature lights on or off when it's dead?

#32 1 year ago

Reply sent in private message

#33 1 year ago

machine goes through the startup and acts and looks like everything is good ... player 1 all reals reset player 2 all good ...no locked coils no humming all good... just nothing at all works... no scoring no chimes no bumpers... only thing is the pop holes...

if you watch that video i posted it is doing exactly what that video shows ... his fix though doesn't fix my machine which is basically a bad Q relay switch

#34 1 year ago

Howard you have email

thanx

#35 1 year ago

Email from OP:

machine is set to freeplay but the coin door works

you can put a game up an the score reels will reset ball will kickout

you can add second player

playfield lites are on

no scoring no flippers no pop bumpers work, kicker holes do workl

i have gone through all this 3 times minimum

jones plugs
ax bx cx quovhrnmlfs
all bumper relays ball relays
score reels
start motor especially 4c and 1a
relays 1b - 6b
and redid the whole player unit

i checked all switches with white paper
i have a multimeter and know how to use it

the video i posted the guy said the q red and white along with the ax powered the play field

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from HowardR:

no scoring no flippers no pop bumpers work

Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156

pasted_image (resized).png
#37 1 year ago

When I jumper AX red/wh to Q red/wh machine works perfect

So I ohmed red/bl ax to red white ax it shows and is closed. Ohmed 0.0

I ohmed Q ohms showed 0.0

When I ohmed ax red/Wh to Q rd/wh it ohmed good. Like 0.4

So I removed the jumper and tried the machine and it went back to problem state

I was expecting a bad switch or wire

Help please

#38 1 year ago

I’m in the process of testing the tilt junctions right now

Ax to t. And t to Q

I’ll let you know in a few

#39 1 year ago

Ok the wires on the Tilt switch is red black not red yellow per schematic

When I jump ax red wh to t red black nothing works

When I jump t red and back to Q red and white machine is back to normal and works

Apparently the problem lays between t and q

#40 1 year ago

should I just run a new wire between T and Q?

I really don't want to split the loom and search for a broke wire?

#41 1 year ago

why not , no harm in trying

#42 1 year ago

Email from OP:

So I narrowed it down to a non existent connection between T and Q.

My machine has a red and black not red and yellow as schematic indicates.
Looks like nothing else exists between T and Q. Unless you see something I don’t? Should I just run a new wire? I really don’t wanna open the loom.

Sent from my iPhone

#43 1 year ago

Assuming by "Q" you mean one side or the other of the switch on the Q relay between 10 and 11 on the schematic fragment I posted above (you didn't say which side)
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-mustang-help-with-dead-scoring-issue#post-6158008

I have no idea what you mean by "T"

#44 1 year ago

Sorry,

Yes I mean the switches on the relays

I jumpered switch with red/blk wire on relay H to relay O switch with red/blk and there was no change

I jumpered red/blk relay O to relay AX red/wh no change

I jumpered red/wh relay AX to red/wh Q and the machine worked perfect

Then I saw relay T between AX and Q relays

So I jumpered red/wh relay AX to relay T which schematic denotes as red and yellow is actually red/blk on the machine and no change, not working

I jumpered relay T red/blk to relay Q red/wh and the machine worked perfect again.

Should I just run a new wire between relay T switch red/black and relay Q switch red/white ?

I really don't want to split the loom and search for a broke wire?

Thanx in advance

#45 1 year ago
Quoted from DirtinLa:

Then I saw relay T between AX and Q relays

There is no T relay switch on the red line between the AX switch and the Q switch on the schematic fragment I posted above
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-mustang-help-with-dead-scoring-issue#post-6158008

#46 1 year ago

if you notice between AX and Q there are the three tilt switches ... these go to a relay T (tilt relay) that is where I jumpered.

Relay T is a single switch relay

the switch is orange red white and the other side on the schematic is red and yellow. Mine is red/black

I jumpered switch with red/blk wire on relay AX to relay T switch with red/blk and there was no change

I jumpered switch with red/blk wire on relay T to relay Q switch with red/blk and machine ran perfect.

Hope this helps... sorry for my struggle with you!

#47 1 year ago
Quoted from HowardR:

no scoring no flippers no pop bumpers work

Quoted from DirtinLa:

between AX and Q there are the three tilt switches ... these go to a relay T (tilt relay)

Sorry but that's not relevant. Those 3 tilt switches aren't between AX and Q, they're off to the side.
A break in the red line I drew is causing the flippers and pop bumpers to not work.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-mustang-help-with-dead-scoring-issue#post-6158008

#48 1 year ago

thank you for you and everyone's help! Machine is once again operational as it should.

Thanx again for all the support!

-=Fred=-

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