Good Evening Experts. I’m an old guy knowledgeable of restoring vintage cars but new to pinball. Having fun, learning and remain in awe of the expertise on these forums.

Have an original 1966 Gottlieb Mayfair purchased in 1990 by me, kids used it extensively through 2005 and college, then sat unused for the last 17 years. Worked when last used. Bringing it back to life now for the grandkids. Systematically cleaned and renewed and now have most everything working with one issue. Unable to have two players. When I power up and press a game, it resets fine. When I select a second player, it registers the second player, then immediately resets. It will play a 1 player game, count the balls correctly, then goes to Player two after Player 1 completes ball 5. It then sticks on Player 2, ball 5. If you reset, same.

I can manually step the Balls Played Unit through all positions and it will register correctly, switching between each player with the correct response. I rebuilt that step Unit and it is not binding. It advances and resets smoothly. I can manually trip the PB relay (second player relay) and it will work fine. I can manually trip the QB relay and game over and Match will display correctly. Following the schematics....still learning here...it appeared the issue would be in the ZB, PB or H Hold Relay. H looked burned so I replayed it...still same issue. I’ve checked the SB (start relay) and it appears correct but that could be the issue and will revisit.

So, very much stumped on why it immediately resets to 1 player after pressing the game button and why the XB and QB relays will not function after ball five. I feel I’m missing a single contact that inhibits the sequence. Any advice appreciated and thanks in advance for any given.

Follow on information. It appears what I am looking for is what ever is triggering the control bank to reset when the second player is added. What causes the control bank servo to fire? The zero position Balls Played is correct, which suggests the D coil or motor 4c is the culprit per the schematics. Any thoughts appreciated. Still learning schematics and this one is confusing me. I may just be reading it wrong.

Thank you MarkG. That makes sense. Will investigate this evening and report back.

Thank you MarkG. The ZB relay was closed. Cleaned and gapped. Players and balls now credit and advance correctly. End of game not quite right but now I know what I am supposed to be seeing in the control bank. I’ll revisit those as well and ensure they are correct. I missed this one, perhaps another as well. Very grateful for the education. I’ll post when I have it all correct. M

Update...the second player relay now works properly and you can play through on 1 or 2 player game to ball 5 will h all scores accurate. At last ball, it will not fire the Last Ball relay or, in turn, the Game Over relay. I have checked the gaps and they are correct and the game over lights and match lights will illuminate if manually functioned.

The schematics suggest the ball count unit is not sending the signal, it remains on player 2, ball five. The only thing that I have repaired in the ball count unit was a broken wire. You can see the new solder joint on the ground. This is where I thought it went as it had the broken joint. Perhaps it should be jumped to the snowshoe? If anyone has the correct solder points, that could be the issue.

So, any thoughts greatly appreciated. Believe all related relays to Game Over are correct but I’m a new guy still learning. Appreciate your patience with me.

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Thanks again MarkG. I’ll disassemble and clean up the contact board and systematically work on getting the XB relay to trip from the Ball count unit. Excellent suggestion on changing to a 3 ball game...that should provide insight and educate me on those switches. When I play or manually step it through, it progresses correctly to ball 5, player two, but will not trip last ball. Disassembly and analysis will continue my education and most likely reveal the answer.

If I understand this correctly, the wiper feet that are jumped (red arrows) connect contacts 4, 5, 8 and 9 as it steps up. So, 5 should be hot on 3 balls, 8 on 5 balls, both of which should trip the relay. Is this correct? Still having fun

Not sure I understand your test question. The wire appears to go to ground.

As always, thank you. I will proceed as directed and report back tonight.

Good Evening MarkG. Disassembled the Ball Count, removed most the the dialectic, steps up and retracts home. All looks proper. I removed and reinspected the control bank to ensure that was correct. All appear gapped correctly with no burns.
If I play a game, 1 or 2 player, or manually step the balls through, everything registers correctly except...
1. If 3 ball play is selected, it counts up to 5 and follows the same 5 ball symptoms
2. On 5 ball play, it steps through correctly, lights switch from player 1 to 2 and back (yes, the second player relay is closed), After last ball, the ball count steps to post 11...the last one...which should trigger game over. Is that correct? What happens is the second player light illuminates and the game keeps going. It will do this on 1 player, 2 player, 3 ball or 5 ball.

The attached picture (with a degreased board ) shows the jumped pegs. But, they are only jumped at the sleeve, not the peg itself. I tried to manually close the circuit to see what may happen with no results.

So, are these pegs jumped both top and bottom...as the others are? Which pegs are supposed to be jumped? Suspect a wire has gone missing during moves, etc. is this the correct approach? The old school way for me to sort this would be to map the color codes to each peg, look at what is bridged, and map that to the last ball and game over relays...or ask those that have been here before mjm

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Thank you both for your response.

For Mark G...I concur the XB is the problem...it is not receiving a pulse from the Ball Count Unit (BCU) on either 3 ball or 5 ball. After learning more about the BCU it appears the top 3 tracks control the players and ball count. 10 alternating rivets representing ball balls 1-5 for each player. When 1 player is selected, the BCU is receiving two pulses, effectively stepping over player 2. Home is rivet 1. I tried starting off rivet thinking that would be the starting point. No, it then terminates on ball 4.

The bottom, 4 contact track appears to control the 3 ball, 5 ball, last ball and game over rivets. Once I got into it, makes sense. The rivets clearly map to 3, 5 and Game over. The feet are properly jumped with good continuity checks. But...the signal is not getting to the XB relay. Good signal from top of board, no signal from bottom track. The schematics shows the B relay and Motor 1C in the path to XB. I checked B and ensured that was clean and gapped. Did not check to see if it is actually working...my bad. Will do so. I will also look closer at 1C but so many other things are working through that okay but I’ll revisit.

Thus, does anyone know what Jones plug peg(s) the BCU uses? My thoughts are to check continuity from the BCU to the Jones Plug, then from Jone Plug to B, then to XB. Does that sound correct? Starting to think I have a broken wire of solder joint somewhere.

For imdrunker..good eye. I too noticed that but the pegs and rivets all correctly align. Believe if I remove the triangle plate and rotate it, it will recenter. Will do so tonight and report back.

So close...yet not there. Any thoughts appreciated. In the absence of a Jones Plug map, my next approach is to trace the color code...hard with old eyes...and fine the correct Jones Plug.

OBTW...I can manually trigger XB and game over and match works.

Yes, been through it several times and can find nothing amiss. Of interest, it is not centered because I used the wrong set screw position on the flat on the cog shaft. There are two set screws, about 45 degrees apart. You can rotate the flange on the shaft, and either screw will engage the flat. In my case, I chose poorly. Easy fix but all the correct rivets appear to hit accurately.

I did identify the yellow blue wire from rivet 10, lower arm, is the game over...I think. Also found the appropriate Jones plug so the puzzle is giving up some answers.

I did revisit the control bank to test each coil. Of note, Second Player and the SB we’re both 1.6 ohms. Book says that is low...yet those two coils function. All others in the bank are 3.6 to 3.8.

So, very much appreciate you all trying to help. Probably something simple that this new old guy is missing. M

Hello MarkG. Frustration meter exceeding fun factor so time to set it aside for a few days. The same symptoms persist...cannot get it to end the game. 3 or 5 ball, 1 or 2 player, same symptoms. The BCU steps through smoothly and when it reaches the last divot, remains on the second player and allows you to keep playing. That makes sense, as the last divot on the track is ball 5, player two. Suggests the problem is in the lower section with 4 tracks. It just does not get a signal that it’s game over. It is possible I miss soldered the jump wires on the face of the BCU. I have searched for pictures but am unable to determine how it is suppose to be wired. Any advice out there?

I specifically checked the B relay, as the schematic shows that in the path before the game over relay. It appears correct. Could you kindly explain how to jump B to XB in the control bank? Or fire them directly by jumping? Can I take any 6 volt source to the the color coded input?

My thought is to try and get B to fire Last ball and Game over directly. Incan manually function them. Greatly appreciate if you could walk me through that. Asking because I understand the Control Bank reset is high voltage and want to be sure I am correct before going live.

Thank you for helping a guy new to pinball. I am competent in vintage cars..relays are relays but these are a whole bunch of them reluctant to give up their secrets

Thank you all for the words of encouragement. I’m a new guy still learning and the learning curve is steep.

For baldtwit...thank you for the method to check the coil. I also just found an older post addressed by many of you guys from 72GTO that had a very similar problem. Between that post and your suggestion, I should be able to isolate the issue. Will try again tomorrow. Worse case, I learn something new and further eliminate what it is not. It is easy to see how one can become addicted to and fascinated in restoring these machines...and they are worthy of restoration. The pinnacle of EM technology in its day. SS is nice and able to do so much more but EM has an almost visceral and fully tactile connection that cannot be ignored

For balltwit. Grew up is Mtn. View / Los Altos. Fond memories of hiking in Portola Valley back in the 60s. Still had mountain lions. Yep, Joan Biez up above Foothill College...Feeling my age.

So, Mayfair is giving up a few secrets. B relay works fine. It fires with every manual step of the BCU. It, and the K relay, fire together if pulsed from the ball trough switch. Ball count and players advance correctly. But no pulse to XB. I can watch B fire and XB just sneers back at me. Will check to see if there is a pulse because I believe the QB relay is faulty. Reads 3.7 ohms but appears ajar on contact.

I can manually trip all control bank relays with the exception of QB, the Game Over relay... appears to stick periodically so suspect that may be the issue. The plate is slightly ajar on closure in and does not reset smoothly every time. I will disassemble and investigate as there might be something stuck between the coil and plate. Just a guess but it visually looks wrong

Request...any advice words of wisdom to caution the pinball new old guy before I tear down the control bank? Can I remove a single relay or does the whole thing need to come out. Which is easier? Might be best to take it all apart, and learn. Any advice or steer me to a good resource greatly appreciated. Feels better with something concrete to work on, even if it’s wrong

OBTW....what is the function and how do I check the 2 diodes on the back side of the BCU? They are very warm to the touch. Is that normal? They appear ceramic so acting as a heat sink make sense.

Thank you for the quick response MarkG. Out of horsepower tonight and will try firing them as you suggest tomorrow with a rested set of eyes. I’d prefer not to tear into the control bank at my current level of experience. Read your older thread with 78GTO. Great stuff with several similarities. Both are providing much needed information on this adventure.

Also thanks on the diode correction. After I pushed send, realized these were resisters...they would normally be warm. Senior moment

Hello MarkG... at the risk of sounding very stupid, where is the red/white Right Side Power Rail? The only common rail wire on the control bank is a soldered bare wire...heavier gauge (it is not red/white) that connects all the coils within the bank. Is that it? That is hot as several relays, to include the second player relay, consistently fires when it is supposed to as does the master bank reset (S relay). It’s a new, new guy question but needed to ask.

Second question...On the BCU, which divot is the start position? One thread stated Gottlieb BCU home was minus 1. Others say it is on divot 1. I have tried both ways. It makes no difference. As I step through, manually or via the though switch, I can watch the player relays smoothly switch back and forth as well as function the B relay. What is curious is after ball five, on the final step, the reset relay closes and illuminates the second player light. There is a single contact in the reset relay that is turning on the second player light and I can manually function it. The question is if both player lights are suppose to illuminate on game over.

If anyone out there has a picture of correctly wired snow shoe jumpers, I would greatly appreciate it. I believe mine are correct as it is my understanding the jumpers augment the hard wired sleeves. Those match.

Appreciate everyone’s patience with me.

Mark G...THANK YOU!!! Your beautiful description is easy for me to understand. I will report back with success tomorrow.

Update. Suspecting some issue with the XB relay. Ohms are 3.7 but it will not consistently fire. When I function it directly from the red/white rail, it will fire...most of the time. When I manually reset it, either using the bar or the lever arm on the coil contacts, it will generally fire again, but, if I repeat this a 3rd + time, it will not fire. If I turn the machine off and go through a complete reset, it will approximately repeat the above. It initially will fire, then intermittently fire on subsequent attempts. It is never consistently. I moved on to 1C with nearly identical results. Jumping from B coil is the same. Sometimes it fires, sometimes not. Blue/white on B also fires XB most of the time like above when you close the relay. Of note, with the BCU on divot 9, functioning from B blue/white also tripped last ball and gave a match. That was encouraging.

Question...when you say reset XB, does that require a full reset of the entire control bank or just the relay? I have tried both with the exact results. Since I am just trying to fire the relay only, believe it should fire anytime I apply power to blue/black or other pathways but need to ask as the current symptoms do not make sense to me.

I have read about magnetized coils. Could this be one of them? I have manually manipulated the relay to ensure it is not stuck closed as well as checked contacts improperly gapped. Yet, the coil will not consistently fire.

Should I replace the XB coil or is this something else? As always, appreciate your tolerance of some basic questions.

Thanks MarkG. I’ve rotated the control bank up multiple times to check for binding, loose wires, mechanical and obstructions, etc. I can function each relay by pressing the spring plate. They all will close. The will all reset individually as well as with the master bar. All contacts appear correct with a light check.

The control bank does appear to be slightly misaligned as it does not smoothly seat when lowered into the cradle. I loosened all the bolts to allow it seat correctly but still suspect I need to revisit why it is ajar. Once you tighten the wing nuts it would be torquing it. That could be a source of binding.

Question...If not binding, can I remove, inspect and/or replace a single relay from the control bank or do you need to remove it as a unit. It appears you can partly disassemble the top bracket and remove a single coil. Is that correct? Looks like I am headed toward inspecting the XB relay at some point in this adventure. I’ll revisit the alignment concern to see if I missed something. The machine worked before so I need to find what changed. M

Additional symptoms. If I fire the XB relay from a cold reset (ie...unplug and start new game) it will fire from the rail. I am taking power directly from the red/white from the transformer as well as trying from other red/white leads. If I try to fire it again, it will not fire. I note that every coil in the bank is the same way. They will all fire from a cold reset, then they too will not fire when directly triggered. I can repeat this same response from 1C and B. I can activate tilt and reset and it sometimes allows me to trigger twice. Is the transformer intermittent? Guess I need to check the fuses as well as something is causing this.

This really has my curiosity and am determined to find why. Any ideas are welcomed.

Thanks for the catch on red/white wire fades. I’ll ensure to check colors closer and connect after the fuse.

Understand the trip relay. Should have explained better. A few times, mostly trying to fire from1C, it will trip and then buzz when I attempt to fire it again, not seeing that it has already tripped.

The springs on XB felt weaker than the other relays...and it’s movement felt a wee bit binding. Only noticed when immediately compared to the adjacent relay. Being fully committed now, I partially disassembled the control bank in an attempt to inspect the coil. Did not get that far as was unwilling to desolder things tonight to remove the coil. I did remove the contact plate suspecting something may be stuck or ?? What I did find was what looks like iron filings. The plate appeared to be magnetized slightly as the iron filings align as such.

I guess I could degauss things if it comes to that...not sure how but I’m sure it can be done if new parts are not available. Would require complete disassembled. I know how to degauss a ship, a coil and plate can’t be that hard

I’m also now know why you all advised not to tear into a control bank. So, I cleaned every thing up, got rid of the iron filings (or whatever ferrous material they are) put it back together...those little springs are not fun. I believe the arm retract springs are a bit weak and will replace those tomorrow. Will fire things back up and see where we are. worst case, I now better understand the control bank. Best case, it may work!!! Stay tuned.

Thanks baldtwit...I tore into the reset bank thinking I had some mechanical issue with XB. It would not reliably trip by hand. It did have some crud between the contact plate and coil. But, in the process of disassembly, I elongated the reset arm springs. So...after a few days to receive them by mail, I now have new springs installed, experienced a steep learning curve on how to rebuild a reset bank...and still have the same problem.

Not to worry. Your information is invaluable in my education and I am committed to learn and figure this out. Thank you for sharing your time

The symptoms are becoming more consistent so it is helping narrow it down. I got it to work correctly once, which is encouraging but I have to jump or manually trip both XB and QB. Then everything, including Match works. Believe I have it surrounded and just need some uninterrupted time to devote to it. Hoping this weekend. There are a few contacts that appear to be amiss.

I appreciate everyone’s patience with the new guy. This is a fascinating hobby and one I probably would not have experienced if it were not for quarantine.

Great News! Found and corrected the problem. It was the B relay all along. I could consistently fire XB, but when I really looked closer at B, it would fire from Orange Blk from both 1C and B. But it would not fire from Yellow Blue on B, when B was functioned. The contacts looked closed but were not. Old eyes. Anyway, reset the Yellow Blue / Orange Blk contacts on B, made sure they were properly cleaned, and everything now works as it should. I have a few cosmetics to clean up, some loose bulbs, and seal the back glass, but it Plays and resets as it should. Thanks to all for sharing your time to help me through this. I feel a bit stupid having torn through so much when what I really needed was to revisit the basics. But it did add to my education.

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