(Topic ID: 288331)

Gottlieb Mars - Correcting a Mistake, and TP Voltages


By Knxwledge

6 days ago



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#1 6 days ago

Before moving on and plugging in the rest of the boards to my Mars, I want to make sure on a couple of things. I've rebuilt the mandatory parts on the power supply board according to Pinwiki, repinned 3 molex plugs that plug in to power supply, done the backbox ground mods (but not ran anything from the head to the bottom of the cabinet or messed with the interconnect harness), replaced the BR and caps on the sound/speech power supply, changed out the 3 BRs and the original orange Sprague cap in the bottom of the cabinet, and made sure all fuses are rated appropriately. I changed the orange Sprague with a 12000uf 25v Ritchey, the sound/speech cap with a 4700uf 63v Kemet, and all BRs with 400v 35a. Parts were bought from Digikey and GPE.

The mistake I made was wiring the BR on the sound/speech board wrong initially. I goofed, and since there was no clear indicator for pos and neg on the old BR, I decided not to look in the manual and assume I knew. Bad idea, but not catastrophic. When I rebuilt everything and powered the game on for the first time, after about 30 seconds the small 47uf cap blew. Pulled the board out, checked the diode and resistor in that area which were fine, then realized I had mounted the BR with negative where positive was supposed to be, and therefore soldered all lugs wrong. I've now soldered the lugs correctly, but is there anything else I could have damaged on that board? I would like to check before I plug it in again.

Also, I'm getting these voltages from the power supply board (with nothing else plugged in):
TP1: 68v
TP2: 50.6v
TP4: 5.1v adjusted with the pot (should I turn it down closer to 5.0v?)
TP5: 6.95v

Now I notice that TP1, 2 and 5 close, but not exact. Is this fine? I'm assuming yes because they're not under load/potentially could be unregulated but I want to confirm first. I don't have Fuse F3 (8a slow for controlled lamps) because I don't have any on hand, or any close to it like a 7a or 7.5a slow that I could just stick in for testing purposes. Doubt that makes a difference.

#2 6 days ago

One more question... is the wire that goes to the chaser light board from the A2J3 housing I repinned in the correct spot, or should it be in the pin above it? I cut it and wasnt paying attention, and I couldnt figure it out from the schematics

20210220_001213 (resized).jpg
#3 5 days ago

I found this video of a guy testing a System 80 under no load and his voltages were closer to what they were written as on the board than mine.

Guess I should start troubleshooting?

#4 5 days ago

All measurements are in DC
J1 pin 1: 9.5v (labeled as 12vdc source)
Banded side J2: 83.6v (labeled as 76.4v)
Ic1 pin 10: 5.7v (labeled as 7.0v)
J1 pin 7: 41.3v (labeled as 60v AC input)

So Im thinking I either have a problem with the way I wired the BRs in the cabinet or a problem with the transistors on the power supply board (Q1, Q2 and Q3)? Likely not Q3 because my 5v is good and my 12v appears to be low directly where it enters the board. Any help appreciated

Edit: I was reading this thread https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-system-80-power-supply-advice#post-6013748 and I see talks of CR7 causing issues on the 8v. I will check this, because I've already replaced the resistor R10 with the suggested upgrade.

#5 4 days ago

Had some time tonight, let me report my findings. Very strange.........
So I checked Q1 Q2, R1-R5, CR5 and CR6. Everything was good, but I replaced Q1 Q2 anyway. A couple of the BR wires in the bottom of the cabinet were crimped, not soldered, so I soldered them to ensure a good connection. I then checked every output on the transformer because that's the last thing it could be, really... Attached is a picture of my findings, and I'm sure my handwriting is chicken scratch to most, so I will write down the strangest findings. All are in AC:

8v (blk/orn) = 16.2v
25v (red/slate) = 44v
60v (lug 9) = 88v
10v (lug 16) = 35v
10v (lug 17) = 45v
12v (lug 7) = 23v

It's looking like bad transformers! Unless someone has a way to test them differently to make 100% sure, it's looking like I'm gonna need to find some kind of replacement or buy good used ones. The fuses in the bottom of the cabinet aren't blowing.
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#6 4 days ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

It's looking like bad transformers! Unless someone has a way to test them differently to make 100% sure

Just passing through.
Looks like you measured the transformer voltages with your black meter lead on ground?
AC voltages out of the transformer need to be measured across the transformer windings, i.e one multi-meter lead on one side of the winding, the other multi-meter lead on the other side of the winding.

So, to measure the 10VAC output, one meter lead goes on transformer lug 3, the other meter lead on lug 7.
60VAC across lugs 8 and 9
12VAC across lugs 16 and 17

The centre tap windings at lugs 10, 11, 12 actually has DC applied to the centre lug 11 downstream at one of the circuit boards. Measure the DC voltage at lug 11 with the red meter lead, black meter lead on ground.
Then measure the AC voltages between lugs 10 and 11, then 11 and 12.

Ditto for the centre tap windings at lugs 13, 14, 15 respectively. Lug 14 also has DC applied to it downstream.

#7 3 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

Just passing through.
Looks like you measured the transformer voltages with your black meter lead on ground?
AC voltages out of the transformer need to be measured across the transformer windings, i.e one multi-meter lead on one side of the winding, the other multi-meter lead on the other side of the winding.
So, to measure the 10VAC output, one meter lead goes on transformer lug 3, the other meter lead on lug 7.
60VAC across lugs 8 and 9
12VAC across lugs 16 and 17
The centre tap windings at lugs 10, 11, 12 actually has DC applied to the centre lug 11 downstream at one of the circuit boards. Measure the DC voltage at lug 11 with the red meter lead, black meter lead on ground.
Then measure the AC voltages between lugs 10 and 11, then 11 and 12.
Ditto for the centre tap windings at lugs 13, 14, 15 respectively. Lug 14 also has DC applied to it downstream.

Thanks, I will retest correctly and report back

#8 3 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

Just passing through.
Looks like you measured the transformer voltages with your black meter lead on ground?
AC voltages out of the transformer need to be measured across the transformer windings, i.e one multi-meter lead on one side of the winding, the other multi-meter lead on the other side of the winding.
So, to measure the 10VAC output, one meter lead goes on transformer lug 3, the other meter lead on lug 7.
60VAC across lugs 8 and 9
12VAC across lugs 16 and 17
The centre tap windings at lugs 10, 11, 12 actually has DC applied to the centre lug 11 downstream at one of the circuit boards. Measure the DC voltage at lug 11 with the red meter lead, black meter lead on ground.
Then measure the AC voltages between lugs 10 and 11, then 11 and 12.
Ditto for the centre tap windings at lugs 13, 14, 15 respectively. Lug 14 also has DC applied to it downstream.

Transformer voltages:
10vac (lug 17 and 16) is 13.18vac
60vac (lug 8 and 9) is 63.97vac
Lug 11 dc voltage is 1.0 but inconsistent
Ac from 10 to 11 is 2.8vac
Ac from 11 to 12 is 2.8vac
Lug 14 dc voltage is 2v but inconsistent
Lug 13 to 14 ac is 1.6vac
Lug 14 to 15 ac is 1.6vac
Larger transformer:
Ac at 8v lugs is 9.09vac
Ac at 6v lugs is 6.9vac

The inconsistent DC voltages started higher and as the cabinet was turned on, it went down. Seemed to stabilize at the voltages I posted

Dc voltages at the fuses with black lead on cabinet ground:
F1: readings start at 310v and go down to 275v
F2: 279v
F3: 7.7v
F4: starts at 20v and goes down to 0-0.2v (with sound speech PS unplugged)
F5: 24v
F6: 48v
F7: starts at 7v and goes down to 0-0.2v

Just cleaned the fuse holders, no change

Dc voltages on the BRs (with black lead on negative, red leads going clockwise):
Power supply/sound board lug: 23.5v/28.3v/24v
Lamp: 1.4v/20v/8.5v
Solenoid: 48v/80v/47v

I checked the rest of the resistors on the power supply board and the only thing I found bad was R12. It's a 0.33ohm 5w wirewound and it is reading 0.7ohm. Do the 1000pf and 2uf caps at C3 and C5 ever go bad? Can I replace a wirewound resistor with a metal film one?

Checking Q3:
One leg to another 0.6
Swapped leads 2.0
Black lead on legs, red on base tested open both times
Red leads on legs, black on base tested 0.6 both times

#9 2 days ago

To answer my own question in regard to the miswiring of the sound/speech BR... the other 2 lugs that arent positive and negative dont lead anywhere except for the molex plug. So no, I didnt damage anything else besides that one cap which blew.

Anyone have any advice on the power issue? Leaning toward a bad IC1, but I dont think that would explain the low 12v

#10 1 day ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

Dc voltages at the fuses with black lead on cabinet ground:

The voltages at the fuses are on the AC side before the bridge rectifiers, measuring them with respect to ground on DC isn't how to test them.
You can check them with the power on by setting your multi-meter to AC voltage and put a meter lead on each side of the fuse. You should read zero volts.
Better yet, measure AC voltage at the fuse with respect to the opposite winding lug at the transformer.

When you put your meter on resistance mode and put both probes together, do you read zero ohms? probably not. The discrepancy on that R12 resistor is likely just your meter not being calibrated. When wirewound resistors fail, they usually go open circuit.

Which 47uF capacitor blew?

Quoted from Knxwledge:

Dc voltages on the BRs

To measure the DC voltages at the bridges, set the multi-meter to DC voltage, black meter lead goes on the "-" bridge leg, red meter lead goes on the "+" bridge leg.

#11 1 day ago
Quoted from Quench:

The voltages at the fuses are on the AC side before the bridge rectifiers, measuring them with respect to ground on DC isn't how to test them.
You can check them with the power on by setting your multi-meter to AC voltage and put a meter lead on each side of the fuse. You should read zero volts.
Better yet, measure AC voltage at the fuse with respect to the opposite winding lug at the transformer.
When you put your meter on resistance mode and put both probes together, do you read zero ohms? probably not. The discrepancy on that R12 resistor is likely just your meter not being calibrated. When wirewound resistors fail, they usually go open circuit.
Which 47uF capacitor blew?

To measure the DC voltages at the bridges, set the multi-meter to DC voltage, black meter lead goes on the "-" bridge leg, red meter lead goes on the "+" bridge leg.

The cap that blew was on the sound/speech PS board because I installed the BR backwards. It's fine now.
The resistance between my 2 meters is about 1.3ohm. So I guess the one on the PS is fine
I have another wirewound resistor of the same rating under the PF that needs to be replaced. It's testing 2.4ohm. Is the metal film one fine to use? Is the second reading I got when testing Q3 suspect, or is it okay?

I will retest the fuse AC voltages (with the exception of F3 because I don't have the 8 amp SB fuse at the moment)

Fuses tested on AC:
F1: 0
F2: ~55
F3: cant test
F4: 6.3
F5: 0
F6: 0
F7: 0

I checked the fuses, theyre fine, except the 7.5a one at F2 is an 8A one. I checked the 115v on both transformers, and with 1 lead on 115, 1 lead on common I got 117vac for both.

I rechecked the BR DC measurements and Im getting:
Power supply/sound board: 16.7v
Lamps; 4.0
Solenoids: 35.5v

#12 1 day ago

Some pictures (I know R12 isnt soldered in/the metal film one instead of the wirewound)

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#13 21 hours ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

I have another wirewound resistor of the same rating under the PF that needs to be replaced. It's testing 2.4ohm.

I don't see any wirewound resistors on the playfield schematics (maybe I just missed it). Where is this resistor? Is it also supposed to be a 0.33 ohms? Unsolder one leg and remeasure it to get its real resistance value so the reading isn't affected by other circuitry.

If you're going to replace wirewound resistors with metal film, be very careful to get the wattage rating same or higher on the replacement. Note ceramics are generally larger in size so are better capable of dissipating the heat.

Quoted from Knxwledge:

Fuses tested on AC:
F2: ~55
F4: 6.3

Well those readings indicate fuse F2 is open circuit and F4 is suspect - or there's bad connections on the fuse holders.

Quoted from Knxwledge:

Is the second reading I got when testing Q3 suspect, or is it okay?

Your opening post says you've got 5.1V at TP4 on the power-supply board which is the output of Q3 and is about correct. Is this not the case anymore?

Quoted from Knxwledge:

J1 pin 1: 9.5v (labeled as 12vdc source)

9.5V sounds low to me which indicates the big capacitor across the 12V bridge isn't doing its job.

BTW, what exactly is the issue you're trying to sort out right now?

#14 17 hours ago
Quoted from Quench:

I don't see any wirewound resistors on the playfield schematics (maybe I just missed it). Where is this resistor? Is it also supposed to be a 0.33 ohms? Unsolder one leg and remeasure it to get its real resistance value so the reading isn't affected by other circuitry.
If you're going to replace wirewound resistors with metal film, be very careful to get the wattage rating same or higher on the replacement. Note ceramics are generally larger in size so are better capable of dissipating the heat.

I got the 2.4ohm reading with one leg unsoldered. I will take a pic of where it's located under the PF

Quoted from Quench:

Well those readings indicate fuse F2 is open circuit and F4 is suspect - or there's bad connections on the fuse holders.

I will try swapping the fuses, and if that doesn't change anything I could try changing the fuse holder block.

Quoted from Quench:

Your opening post says you've got 5.1V at TP4 on the power-supply board which is the output of Q3 and is about correct. Is this not the case anymore?

No, my 5v is fine. Is Q3 only for the 5v?

Quoted from Quench:

9.5V sounds low to me which indicates the big capacitor across the 12V bridge isn't doing its job.
BTW, what exactly is the issue you're trying to sort out right now?

The high 60v, 42v and low 8v indicated in post 1
TP1: 68v
TP2: 50.6v
TP5: 6.95v
This big capacitor, are you referring to the 470uf cap on the PS board? I've changed that

#15 17 hours ago

There are several readings from earlier that are confusing. I think many are due to how they are being measured.

But based on latest info:
If TP4 is correct then don't mess with the 5V regulator circuit including Q3.
Note that he is not a standard transistor, he is a "Darlington Pair" transistor which has two transistors in the package. These do not test the same as normal transistors do.

TP1 -- you need to measure the 'setting voltage' which can be found at location "E2".
Meter grounded to TP3 - what voltage do you get at "E2".
It is a little high but not horrible. About 10% out of whack when it should be closer to the 5% range.

TP2 is fine. When you fix TP1 then TP2 will fall in line.
TP2 is calculated by voltage at TP1 minus 18V. You normally get about 60 - 18 = 42V. You get 68 - 18 = 50V. This says CR6 and R5 are good.

TP5 is bad. Replace CR7 and R10.

Out of curiosity: meter grounded to TP3 - what voltage do you get at "E4"?

#16 17 hours ago

this may not help, but when getting my Solar Ride system 1 up and running i noticed that when testing voltages in the cabinet, on the base board, that the voltages were incorrect until it was all connected and there was load for the circuit in question.

#17 15 hours ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

There are several readings from earlier that are confusing. I think many are due to how they are being measured.
But based on latest info:
If TP4 is correct then don't mess with the 5V regulator circuit including Q3.
Note that he is not a standard transistor, he is a "Darlington Pair" transistor which has two transistors in the package. These do not test the same as normal transistors do.
TP1 -- you need to measure the 'setting voltage' which can be found at location "E2".
Meter grounded to TP3 - what voltage do you get at "E2".
It is a little high but not horrible. About 10% out of whack when it should be closer to the 5% range.
TP2 is fine. When you fix TP1 then TP2 will fall in line.
TP2 is calculated by voltage at TP1 minus 18V. You normally get about 60 - 18 = 42V. You get 68 - 18 = 50V. This says CR6 and R5 are good.
TP5 is bad. Replace CR7 and R10.
Out of curiosity: meter grounded to TP3 - what voltage do you get at "E4"?

Before I go through the trouble of putting the PS board back to test E4 and E2, I have already replaced CR7 and R10 with the suggested "upgrades" (I will double check I used the right resistor). I replaced the electrolytic caps on it, replaced the 500ohm pot, added a ground wire, replaced Q1 and Q2 despite them testing fine, changed out the 3 male molex pins, repinned the female pins and checked every single resistor and diode on the board. The only things I haven't really checked are SRC1 and IC1

#18 15 hours ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

There are several readings from earlier that are confusing. I think many are due to how they are being measured.
But based on latest info:
If TP4 is correct then don't mess with the 5V regulator circuit including Q3.
Note that he is not a standard transistor, he is a "Darlington Pair" transistor which has two transistors in the package. These do not test the same as normal transistors do.
TP1 -- you need to measure the 'setting voltage' which can be found at location "E2".
Meter grounded to TP3 - what voltage do you get at "E2".
It is a little high but not horrible. About 10% out of whack when it should be closer to the 5% range.
TP2 is fine. When you fix TP1 then TP2 will fall in line.
TP2 is calculated by voltage at TP1 minus 18V. You normally get about 60 - 18 = 42V. You get 68 - 18 = 50V. This says CR6 and R5 are good.
TP5 is bad. Replace CR7 and R10.
Out of curiosity: meter grounded to TP3 - what voltage do you get at "E4"?

Quoted from Quench:

I don't see any wirewound resistors on the playfield schematics (maybe I just missed it). Where is this resistor? Is it also supposed to be a 0.33 ohms? Unsolder one leg and remeasure it to get its real resistance value so the reading isn't affected by other circuitry.
If you're going to replace wirewound resistors with metal film, be very careful to get the wattage rating same or higher on the replacement. Note ceramics are generally larger in size so are better capable of dissipating the heat.

Well those readings indicate fuse F2 is open circuit and F4 is suspect - or there's bad connections on the fuse holders.

Your opening post says you've got 5.1V at TP4 on the power-supply board which is the output of Q3 and is about correct. Is this not the case anymore?

9.5V sounds low to me which indicates the big capacitor across the 12V bridge isn't doing its job.
BTW, what exactly is the issue you're trying to sort out right now?

Picture of the location of the 0.33ohm 5w resistor on the pf. The other leg is connected to the cap and the unsoldered wire.

Changed fuses with known good ones, nothing changed.

I actually found a 7a 250v SB fuse to test F3 and it tested good

For R10 I used a 680ohm 1/2w resistor, and a 8.2v 1w zener for Cr7
20210225_134942 (resized).jpg

#19 12 hours ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

Before I go through the trouble of putting the PS board back to test E4 and E2, I have already replaced CR7 and R10 with the suggested "upgrades" (I will double check I used the right resistor). I replaced the electrolytic caps on it, replaced the 500ohm pot, added a ground wire, replaced Q1 and Q2 despite them testing fine, changed out the 3 male molex pins, repinned the female pins and checked every single resistor and diode on the board. The only things I haven't really checked are SRC1 and IC1

SCR1 and IC1 have nothing to do with the 8V. These are part of your 5V supply which is working.

ONLY CR7 and R10 affect the 8V offset back to the transformer.
If you have a bad solder joint or cracked trace - that can be an issue. So can a mis-pinned plug on J1.

With meter grounded to TP3. Measure your voltage at E2 (for 62V supply) and E3 (for 8V supply).

#20 12 hours ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

SCR1 and IC1 have nothing to do with the 8V. These are part of your 5V supply which is working.
ONLY CR7 and R10 affect the 8V offset back to the transformer.
If you have a bad solder joint or cracked trace - that can be an issue. So can a mis-pinned plug on J1.
With meter grounded to TP3. Measure your voltage at E2 (for 62V supply) and E3 (for 8V supply).

No cracked joints. I verified I repinned J1 correctly
All measurements in Dc:
E2: 69.2v
E3: 6.9v
E4: 9.5v

Are these BR measurements a problem(the ones in the cabinet next to the filter cap)?
Power supply/sound board: 16.7v
Lamps; 4.0
Solenoids: 35.5v

#21 11 hours ago

E2 is high, E3 is low.

E2 is established by CR5 and R1.
If resistance in R1 goes too high, there will be insufficient current and CR5 won't conduct.
Check solder job on R1 and CR5 again. Check R1. Also possible CR5 can be damaged during installation.

E3 is low and may be due to low incoming 12V. With a 680 ohm resistor on input, the voltage drop across him my be too great and not allow the zener to hit knee voltage. We need to get voltage at E4 up before worrying about E3.
First step is to follow the voltage back to the source.

Going by your "Power supply/sound board: 16.7v" mentioned in last post. Assuming they share the same unregulated power - this says there is 16.7V in base but 9.5 at power supply. Screams bad connection if true. Voltage at E4 is labeled 12V DC but can often go a few volts higher (e.g. 16.7) with no problems.
At the black cap with screw terminals as shown above -- measure the voltage directly across the screw terminals.

One thing at a time - worry about lamp and solenoid voltages after you get the main 5V and display power up.

#22 11 hours ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

E2 is high, E3 is low.
E2 is established by CR5 and R1.
If resistance in R1 goes too high, there will be insufficient current and CR5 won't conduct.
Check solder job on R1 and CR5 again. Check R1. Also possible CR5 can be damaged during installation.
E3 is low and may be due to low incoming 12V. With a 680 ohm resistor on input, the voltage drop across him my be too great and not allow the zener to hit knee voltage. We need to get voltage at E4 up before worrying about E3.
First step is to follow the voltage back to the source.
Going by your "Power supply/sound board: 16.7v" mentioned in last post. Assuming they share the same unregulated power - this says there is 16.7V in base but 9.5 at power supply. Screams bad connection if true. Voltage at E4 is labeled 12V DC but can often go a few volts higher (e.g. 16.7) with no problems.
At the black cap with screw terminals as shown above -- measure the voltage directly across the screw terminals.
One thing at a time - worry about lamp and solenoid voltages after you get the main 5V and display power up.

When removing Q3 again I think I may have broke it. If the leg moves up and down in the case, Im gonna guess thats not okay

R1 gives me 1.3k, Cr5 gives me 0.699 and open using diode test, swapping leads. Both were done with 1 leg out of circuit. Solder joints on Cr5 and R1 look fine

Should I change R10 to something else?

Measurements at filter cap:
Dc is 571v
Ac is 0v

#23 10 hours ago

that's the biggest downfall of the gottlieb power - having to remove the transistor to do any other work.

571V? Huh?

What are you using for a meter?

Don't worry about R10 right now.

#24 10 hours ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

that's the biggest downfall of the gottlieb power - having to remove the transistor to do any other work.
571V? Huh?
What are you using for a meter?
Don't worry about R10 right now.

Im using an Aneng AN8009, I grabbed another meter, a Sperry Dm-6400, and Im getting 0.57v DC, 0v AC with it. Just tested it with the Aneng again, and now Im getting 24v DC and the Sperry says 0.024v DC.... I dunno what the deal is with these meters

#25 9 hours ago

Ignore everything in post #24, I figured it out and I'm not happy with myself. It turns out BOTH crimps on the filter cap were bad. I yanked the wire right out of both terminals with little effort. Recrimped them properly, and I'm getting 14.7v at the filter cap, the 12v BR and J1 pin 1. I'm relieved, but also very annoyed with myself

Im still having the same issues with my F2 and F4 fuses, and the 6v Lamp bridge tests 12v, and the 24v Solenoid bridge tests 36v. My F8 primary fuse also gives me ~70v AC

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