(Topic ID: 300398)

Gottlieb Lucky Star

By megoman

2 years ago


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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by baldtwit
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There are 51 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 2 years ago

I recently acquired a 1947 Gottlieb Lucky Star game.

I had done some research on the game and looked at many photos on IPMD including the original sales flyer. No flippers, but the game I picked up has flippers.

I know flippers just hit the scene in 1947. Perhaps the game was made with two version - no flippers + flippers.

Just starting to clean it up and see what’s going on inside.

If anyone has background info about this about this game it would be greatly appreciated.

#2 2 years ago
Quoted from megoman:

I recently acquired a 1947 Gottlieb Lucky Star game.
I had done some research on the game and looked at many photos on IPMD including the original sales flyer. No flippers, but the game I picked up has flippers.
I know flippers just hit the scene in 1947. Perhaps the game was made with two version - no flippers + flippers.
Just starting to clean it up and see what’s going on inside.
If anyone has background info about this about this game it would be greatly appreciated.

Probably operator installed...Share a pic!

#3 2 years ago

Data point.............my Lucky Star has no flippers.

#4 2 years ago

Thanks

Here are some pics. From the inside it does look like an add-on job. Interesting.

I know game is missing the bumpers near those side rollovers.

Any idea about value of game in working order?
This game has many burn marks on the rails from cigarettes. That’s gotta be worth a lot extra

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#5 2 years ago

Look at the original color of the grey and red paint where the legs are attached. Long since covered in smoke and who knows what else.

Any recommendations for cleaning this era paint?

#6 2 years ago

It's operator installed or home hobbiest...either way, they don't belong. Take a look at the flipper wiring. They are fried. I think you should reverse the nightmare!

#7 2 years ago

Here are the pics of what was done under the playfield

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#8 2 years ago

I'd leave them. Operators added this to give games a bit more longevity on route. With flippers introduced later that year it was probably a worthwhile upgrade.

The flipper conversion is part of it's history. Probably been on the game most of it's life. And besides if you remove it you have unsightly holes to deal with.

It is always a little odd to me how low they mounted the buttons though?

#9 2 years ago

if you want to put the game back to the original, you could remove the flippers, plug the holes and put the posts back that used to be there. The posts may cover the flipper shaft holes.

you'd still need to rotate the white plastic targets, replace the pop bumper with the correct diamond-shaped bumper, replace the pieces you mentioned and fix any wiring hacks.

trying to restore it to original may be impossible if reasonably close plastics aren't available.

the game is probably more interesting to play as-is, so definitely consider what alexf said.

the schematic should be on the back door. If yours is in good shape and you can take some highest possible resolution picture(s) of it, please email to [email protected].

if you don't have a schem, the pacific pinball museum has the game on their inventory list (poor condition) ... I'll see if the schem is in it if you can't get one from pinball resource and want one.

#10 2 years ago

Appreciate everyone’s input.

The flippers look like an afterthought (not part of game design or strategy) so I think I will ultimately remove.

As for the schematic, it’s in great shape on the inside back panel. I’ll send pic as requested.

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#11 2 years ago

I'd leave the flippers. It looks to me like this is an operator modification done long ago, maybe even in the 1940's.
It was a common practice to retrofit existing non-flipper games with flippers, after Gottlieb's introduction of this groundbreaking feature. The wiring and wireform linkages used, seem to date the modification as being done long ago.

#12 2 years ago

Interesting. Thanks

This number is embossed on the front panel. Is it the serial number?

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#13 2 years ago

Yes, and Gottlieb used to put the game name initials after the serial number. "LS" being "Lucky Star".

#14 2 years ago

Cool. Thanks

#15 2 years ago

Anyone know the value of a Lucky Star game in working condition? Any demand still for games from this era?

#16 2 years ago

It seems like that era between the purely mechanical/battery pack powered games until the early flipper era is the least collectible. With that said a lot of them from this era had very bland playfields. This one is a looker with great art on the field and glass. Plus it's a Gottlieb which always seems to elevate the collectibility somewhat.

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from megoman:

IIs it the serial number?

Consider adding it to the list:

https://www.ipsnd.net/view.aspx?id=1493

/Mark

2 weeks later
#18 2 years ago

At this point I made decision to remove the modifications added to the game many years ago (flippers + a pop bumper).

Goal is to get the game set up and running as original produced. I have the parts for the mods so if someone wants to put them back that can easily be done.

The pop bumper wiring was done with what looks to be old lamp wire that is all deteriorated. Before I plug the gave in need to make sure the wiring under the playfield is correct.

I’ve attached some pics of the area in question (relay bank next to the diamond bumper).

Need to see properly wired game. Does anyone have the game and can you send pics.

Many thanks in advance

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#19 2 years ago

I have a gorgeous Lucky Star. It had a repro backglass in it that covered the Projector area. I scanned and remade a new BG so I do have the artwork if you need a BG.. Mine too has the flipper mod, I chose to leave it alone as it's a time capsule of the era. With Lucky Star being a '46/47 game released right before Humpty Dumpty (the first pin w flippers) the flipperless games soon lost their appeal. Everyone wanted flippers. So aftermarket companies jumped on the band wagon with retro fit flipper kits for operators to install, hoping to get more life out of relatively new games. Lucky Star like many of it's contemporaries was a gambling pin! It has a knock off button and the credit projector can rack up many points.. (nickles in rewards and remember that in the late 40's a simple 25 cent win could probably buy you a sandwich and a few beers).

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#20 2 years ago

Super nice

Totally get operators added flippers as not much appeal once flipper games came out.

Appreciate the offer on BG. My game has the original and it’s in great condition.

As I look at playfield with flippers added there is not much they can shoot for. Understood that something may be better than nothing, but to me the flippers look like an after though.

I’ll leave the flipper buttons on the cabinet. Easy to put the flippers back in if that’s what next owner wants.

Are you able to provide some photos of underneath the playfield? Would like to see how your flippers are wired. Also need to see the wiring for the relay bank next to the diamond target.

Thanks,
Steven

#21 2 years ago

Also, can you explain a little more about the knock off button and the credit projector.

Thanks

#22 2 years ago

the credit projector is a flat disc with numbers stamped thru it. A light shines thru a number and lens and is projected onto the backglass. Win a credit and the disc rotates to the next number.

it was an early form of a mechanical credit wheel.

there's a pic of one on the entry for Bumper on ipdb.org (https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=405&picno=19988)

the knock-off button was just a button someone could press to reset the projector back to 0 - typically 0 wasn't there...the zero position blocked the light. The idea was if you had a few credits, the location could pay you for them and quickly remove them from the game.

I'll see if the pacific pinball museum's machine is unmodified and will take internal pics if it is on monday.

#23 2 years ago

Gottlieb used a plastic wheel with numbers printed around the edge I believe. Bally used a metal wheel with numbers stamped through the metal. I have a short video of a Gottlieb projection unit at:

https://www.funwithpinball.com/exhibits/small-boards#ProjectionUnit.

and photos of a Bally projection unit and knock off switch near the end of the page at:

https://www.funwithpinball.com/resources/1939-Bally-Champion

/Mark

#24 2 years ago
Quoted from megoman:

Super nice
Totally get operators added flippers as not much appeal once flipper games came out. As I look at playfield with flippers added there is not much they can shoot for.

Your game has definitely been modified, and it's very likely the flippers were added by the operator in late 1947 or early 1948. As others have noted, this game came out just a few months before Humpty Dumpty, the first game with flippers. Once Humpty Dumpty hit the locations, no one wanted to play the pre-flipper machines any more. That, of course, meant that the locations (who usually got 50% of the cash pan) wanted only flipper machines.

Imagine being an operator who had just bought one or more brand-new machines in the summer of 1947. There's no way you'd be happy about having to pull those games off location after just a few months. So operators retrofitted their nearly new games with flippers so the locations would continue to accept them.

It's also important to note that the first flipper machines were really designed to play like pre-flipper games, just with the added thrill of being able to bat the ball around a little bit. Humpty Dumpty is a good example. It was designed by Harry Mabs, who up until that point had designed only pre-flipper games (obviously). If you look at the PF design of Humpty Dumpty, it really is primarily a pre-flipper game. There is only one shot that takes advantage of the flippers, and that is the kick-out hole just below the central diamond bumper. Otherwise, this game plays pretty much the same as all other pre-flipper machines.

The reason I mention this is because it helps to explain why no one was upset that the flippers on the retrofitted games of the 1940s didn't give the player much to shoot for. None of the early flipper games really did, either. At that time, it was enough that you could bat the ball around once in a while, rather than just watch it roll to the bottom of the playfield. It took the pingame designers a while to learn how to arrange the playfield elements (including the location of the flipper bats) to make good use of the flippers for game play.

One other unusual feature of Lucky Star is that it is one of the few Gottlieb games that makes use of an early version of the Gottlieb score motor. This score motor only has three switch positions, and features a cam that has only two score motor cycles per revolution. This early score motor design apparantly turned out to be inadequate. Starting with Humpty Dumpty, in addition to adding the flippers, Gottlieb also upgraded their games to a new style score motor with four switch positions and a cam with three score motor cycles per revolution. This score motor design was clearly better, as it is the one that was used all the way up to the end of Gottlieb EMs in the late 1970s.

While it's true that these games aren't worth a whole lot money-wise, I think they are still a very interesting part of the history of pinball, and I think it's great that you are bringing yours back to life.

- TimMe

#25 2 years ago

pacific pinball museum's game also has flippers ... in a different place.

fun part now if figuring out what the original playfield bumper config is supposed to be.

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3 weeks later
#26 2 years ago

I missed this post from 3 wks ago. Thanks so much for sending these pics.

The wiring I need to get straightened out is with the four relays that are together. The game in the pic you sent only has 3 relays in that same area.

From your picture I can see a few wiring differences.

What I really need is pics of the top and sides of each of the relay to be sure of all the connections. Is that something you can send?

Also need to see where wire (looks yellow w/brown in your pic) from the diamond bumper ring detector is connected to. In the photo the wire goes under the relays and comes out the other side, but can’t see where it’s connected.

Really appreciate the help as I’ve gotten all the topside parts needed and I would like to get this game going.

Below are photos of the 3 relays from your game and 4 relays in the same area on my game.

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#27 2 years ago

more pics of the museum lucky star here:

https://bingo.cdyn.com/ppm/lucky_star

a few with different angles of the F,E,A relay bank. It looks like the wiring on those relays is correct and agrees with the schematic ... at least for all the wires that are visible in your pics.

looks like a factory wire substitution on your game. The ppm game and schem says the wire going between the 10K bumper switches and the A relay coil is yellow-black. Yours is a 3 color wire that doesn't match an ID on the schematic chart.

5 months later
#28 1 year ago

My Lucky Star game had to be back burnered for the winter.

Here’s the latest

When I plug game in the Tilt light comes on (controlled by the naturally closed half of of M/B switch on Hold relay).

When I manually start a game the Hold relay should engage and reset.

Hold relay IS NOT engaging. When I manually engage it, it does not hold and actually blows a 10amp fuse (I made 10 amp circuit breakers to use while trying to sort all this out).

The schematic shows a Set Up switch on the line for the Hold relay. There are no wire colors listed so not sure where that switch is located. Does anyone know?

Per the schematic changing the state of the M/B switch on the Hold relay should turn on the bumper and name lights once switch on slide (start a game) is activated. This is not happening.

Something is mucking things up with the Hold relay, but don’t know what it is. Any ideas?

Photo below is of hold relay

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#29 1 year ago
Quoted from megoman:

When I plug game in the Tilt light comes on (controlled by the naturally closed half of of M/B switch on Hold relay).
The schematic shows a Set Up switch on the line for the Hold relay. There are no wire colors listed so not sure where that switch is located. Does anyone know?

There are wire colors on the schematic:
Lucky Star Hold relay (resized).jpgLucky Star Hold relay (resized).jpg
The Set Up switch and the Hold relay Make/Break switch are probably the only two switches in the game that connect a black wire to a black wire with a white tracer. The Set Up switch might be the switch that closes as the slide bar returns to the front of the cabinet after the coin slide has been pushed all the way in.

There are two 10 amp fuses; one for the lights (6 volts) and one for the relays and solenoids (25 volts). Which one is blowing? Use the wire colors from the schematic to tell them apart.

#30 1 year ago

Thanks Mark

The fuse that is blowing is for the relays / solenoids (25v)

The switch on the slide bar I referenced above has the black to black w/white wire connection (supposed to activate lights). Does that mean it’s the Set Up switch?

Below is photo of the switch and the part of the schematic showing the Switch on Slide needed to turn on lights.

Not sure where to go from here?

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#31 1 year ago

On the left in your photo there is a single normally open switch that connects a black wire to a black-white wire. That is likely the Set Up switch since it's normally open and the wire colors match.

On the right in your photo are four other switches, one normally open and three normally closed. If you look through the schematic you'll find four switches labeled On Slide. I bet if you compare wire colors and normally open vs. normally closed you'll be able to identify those four switches. One of them probably provides power to the lamp circuit and the other probably provides current to the solenoid circuit.

So there are a couple of things to sort out:

- Why doesn't the Set Up switch fire the Hold relay? It might be that the Tilt switch in the schematic above is closed or not working.

- Why does the 25 volt circuit fuse blow? You might try unplugging the head to see if the problem persists.

#32 1 year ago

Thanks Mark

Tilt
Per schematic Tilt switch has wires 55 (red) + 60 (black w/white trace). That is the switch on the Tilt relay which has a normally closed switch. Photo below shows the relay + closed switch.

When a game is started and I manually engage the Tilt relay, nothing happens.

I checked all the Tilt relay triggers again and all switches are in the correct position:

Tilt Bob - is not wired
Tilt switch - switch is closed
Push Button 1 - switch 1 (wire 55) is open
Tilt Spring - switch is open

Slide
Ive gone through the wire colors on the 4 slide switches and identified what each is powering (start top of stack nearest bell).

SW1 - powers 8 coils (upper right schematic)
wire 52 (orange/green mot)
59 (black) - supplies current

SW2 - powers free play
wire 32 (orange/red mottled)
72 (green w/yellow trace)

SW3 - powers lights (upper left schematic)
wire 61 (white w/black trace) - supplies current
62 (black/white mottled) - supplies current

SW4 - powers 11 coils (lower right schematic)
wire 56 (red w/white trace) - supplies current
58 (red/white mottled) - supplies current

Not sure what is preventing hold relay from firing or next step in trying to resolve?

For the switch stack on the slide I’m going to block all the switches and then check them one by one to see if they are powering anything. I dont think the switches will impact anything as game not really alive without hold relay being activated.

I’ll confirm back on this. In the interim if anyone has any suggestions for moving forward let me know.

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#33 1 year ago

1] stick a piece of paper between the contacts of the tilt relay switch and close the setup switch with your finger.

If the circuit breaker pops, you'll probably need to disconnect segments of wire 60 to find out where the problem is. The most common problem would be a playfield switch is stuck closed and the associated coil fried, with the most common fried coils being solenoids (coils with plungers like the steppers in the head). Mark's suggestion to disconnect the head will determine if those steppers are a problem.

if the circuit breaker doesn't pop, then either the hold relay coil or the tilt relay coil is bad, or you have a short in the tilt circuits ... so:

2] leave paper from [1] in. disconnect red wire 55 from the hold relay coil. Jumper from black wire 59 to the hold relay coil lug. If breaker ok and hold relay powers, then hold relay is ok, so:

3] disconnect wire 51 from tilt relay coil and jumper black wire 59 to the lug. If breaker ok and tilt relay powers, then you have a short in the tilt wiring (tilt switches, plumb bob, tilt spring, PB 1).

#34 1 year ago

Thank you very much for the detailed info.

Head Box
There are two Jones plugs connecting to
-playfield
-cabinet

I removed both plugs and tried to start a game. Nothing.

Then plugged playfield in and tried to start a game. Nothing.

Removed playfield and plugged cabinet in. Still nothing.

Is there something I missed in terms of removing head and figuring out if issue is head box or play field related?

Next
Per 1 above I blocked tilt switch and when I manually engaged set up switch the breaker blew.

I rechecked all the playfield switches and no switches are closed

- 9 bumpers w/carbon rings
- 6 eject holes w/leaf switches
- 2 rollovers w/leaf switches

There are 3 steppers in the head box
- free play projector - 2 coils
- thousands unit - 1 coil
- ten thousands unit - 2 coils

I blocked all the normally closed switches on the 3 steppers and started a game. No change. With Tilt switch blocked and Set Up switch manually engaged still blowing the breaker.

You mentioned likely having to disconnect segments of wire 60 (black w/white trace). This powers 9 coils per schematic (top left half).

Not clear on specific next steps to determine which relay/coil/switch is causing the issue?

#35 1 year ago

ok, yanking the plugs won't work since the 120V routes thru them.

with the tilt switch open, that eliminates a couple coils.

next thing I'd do is stick paper in the slide switch between wires 56 and 58 and see if the breaker survives. If it does, then the issue is in a circuit connected to wire 58.

if all your playfield switches are open, then the D relay coil is the only one that could power when the setup switch closes IF no other switch on a relay is stuck closed, so first thing I'd do is either disconnect the D relay coil or stick paper under all the wiper fingers on the 10K unit and see what happens.

if D isn't the problem, the gotcha wire 60 and 58 are not physically connected to the devices shown on the schematic in the order they are drawn on the schematic.

if you have an ohmeter, with game power off stick a probe on wire 60 and the other probe on the wire that isn't 58 on all the coils that 58 is connected to. You'll probably get a reading on all of them, but you are looking for the coil(s) that have almost zero ohms.

if no ohmeter, I'd just start unsoldering the coils one at a time to see which circuit is causing the problem. Leave each coil unsoldered until you find the circuit with the issue. Instead, you could go thru each coil circuit and make sure all the switches are open and wipers not touching rivets, but if you have a short that won't help and it looks like unsoldering the coils is pretty easy.

#36 1 year ago

I will be doing as suggested above b

In the interim wanted to point out that in the current state of the game there are two Renata that I can manually activate

5,000 control (C relay)
-turns score motor and give 5 pulses on the Thousands stepper (single coil)

Kicker control (B relay)
-turns score motor and give five pulses on the Thousand stepped (single coil).
-activated kickouts.

The one thing to point out is that the kicker relay is not releasing so the score motor continues to turn.

Does this info provide any addtl clues?

#37 1 year ago

Slide Bar
Just put paper between wires 56 and 58 (4th switch on slide bar)

With paper still holding Tilt switch open I manually engaged Set Up Switch and it tripped the breaker.

D Relay,
In the home position, none of the 4 fingers on the Ten Thousand stepper are touching any rivets.

I advanced unit a few steps and put paper under the wiper. With paper still holding tilt switch open I manually engaged the Set Up switch and the circuit breaker tripped.

When I manually engage the D relay, nothing happened.

With B relay driving score motor and hence kickouts, I know the 4 kickouts coils are OK

I checked the ohms on all other coils. The under playfield and cabinet coils all had good readiness.

The coils in the head all registered 3.2
I know the thousand coil is good as it fires when I activate the B and C relays.

I heard to get true reading on coils need to unsolder on lug. Is that what is now recommended?

#38 1 year ago
Quoted from megoman:

Slide Bar
Just put paper between wires 56 and 58 (4th switch on slide bar)
With paper still holding Tilt switch open I manually engaged Set Up Switch and it tripped the breaker.

uh-oh.

the only thing on the schem that would trip your breaker under those conditions is maybe the counter coil. Stick paper between wires 72 and 32 on the slide switches.

if it's not that, then you just have a short or it's an issue with the mods made to the game.

when the breaker trips, it's immediately when closing the setup switch, right ... not after other things happen?

do you have a "conversion plug" in the game? Maybe in the head?

you're getting to the point where you may need to leave the plugs out and use jumper wires to connect things. e.g. if you have a spare power cord, connect it directly to the transformer, then jumper the 6V, 25V and common wires to the head/playfield to help isolate ... or you just need to keep disconnecting pieces of wire
60 until the breaker survives.

by disconnecting, I mean pick a place where there's a double wire attached and disconnect one wire ... disconnecting all the downstream stuff.

you could do the same with wire 56, or just disconnect the coils connected to wire 56.

#39 1 year ago

Thanks so much for the detailed response.

Starting with uh oh is never a good thing.

You reference the mods. There were flippers added and a pop bumper. I did remove these and the respective wiring. There were only a few I had to put back and I’m pretty certain everything is wired correctly.

Breaker is tripping from closing the Set Up switch. It’s not instantaneous. Have to hold it closed then breaker blows. Same when I manually close the Hold relay.

Thinking back to when I first fired up the game after replacing the power cord, removing flippers/pop bumper+ wiring, reconnecting wires and cleaning /checking all switches. The game started and reset. The lights on the play field DID NOT come one.

The first thing I touched on the playfield was the top left 10K bumper. It scored 10K every time I hit the skirt. I watched the lights on back box change with each 10K score.

Next I touched the 5K bumper on top left (below 10K bumper). No scoring and it blew the 3 amp fuse.

Bought a 3 amp breaker. Started a game. Checked 50K bumper - scored correctly.

Checked 5 K bumper and this time 10amp (25V) fuse blew.

Bought two 10 amp fuses and been trying to figure out issue since.

I will work through your suggestions and let you know what happens.

If what I shared about the first time I started a game point to anything specific I’m sure you will let me know.

#40 1 year ago
Quoted from megoman:

Breaker is tripping from closing the Set Up switch. It’s not instantaneous. Have to hold it closed then breaker blows. Same when I manually close the Hold relay.

you shouldn't have to manually hold the hold relay ... it's supposed to keep itself held once it's powered via the setup switch.

sounds like you have a short that is pulling down the 25V so the hold relay won't power or stay powered, but if you force the circuit to stay active by holding the setup switch closed or the hold relay closed, then the breaker pops eventually.

if the hold relay is not powered (like when you close the setup switch with paper in the tilt relay switch), then none of the lamps except the tilt lamp and maybe the projector lamp should be on. If any other ones come on, you probably have a bad connection in the wire 60 daisy chain and you're pulling current thru 25V coils and lamps.

however, if you stick paper in the wire 72 and 32 switch on the slide and still see a problem when there's paper in the 60/55 tilt switch, then it could only be a short if you removed all the modifications and the game is wired exactly as the schematic shows.

in other words, if you have paper holding open all the slide switches, the 57/61 switch on the hold relay and the 60/55 tilt switch, then closing the setup switch shouldn't do anything ... there is no circuit path from wire 60 back to either fuse unless it's a non-obvious one thru the "conversion plug".

#41 1 year ago

When I turn on power only lamps that light are Tilt (closed switch on Hold relay) and the projector lamp.

I put paper in the 3 closed slide bar switches, the tilt switch and hold relay closed make/break switch (turns of tilt light). Closing Set up switch still trips breaker.

Per your note this shouldn’t be happening as there is no direct connection from wire 60 (black w/white trace) on Set up switch to either of the 10 amp breakers.

You asked about a conversion plug. I don’t know what that is?

Is next step to start disconnecting coils with wire 56 (unsolder then other color wire on the coils)?

Do I also need to disconnect things connected to 60 wire (bumpers, A/G/H/Hold/Tilt relays, motor 2 and 3).

Really appreciate all the help. Await feedback for next steps.

#42 1 year ago

conversion plug seems like it would be a 3 pin jones plug ... maybe in the head near the projection/free play unit. Don't know tho as I didn't look in the museum's head.

typical games had the plug at the bottom of the head near where the playfield/cabinet plugs go and it was labeled "novelty / free play".

since with paper in the slide switches + tilt switch nothing should be connected back to the fuses from wire 60, I'd just start disconnecting segments of wire 60.

you'll need to physically trace it around, and pulling the plugs and jumpering just the power wires (60, 56) between the playfield plug and socket will eliminate the problem being in the head ... tho you'll need to get 120V onto the transformer by directly connecting it with a spare power cord or jumpering 83/84 at plug connections and the time clock or FL zero switch.

you may be able to get away power off, pulling the fuses and attaching on ohmeter probe to wire 56 and other probe poke wire 60 when you have paper in the slide switches and tilt switch. If you don't see infinite ohms, how many ohms do you see? The move the probe from wire 60 to each of the coils ... doesn't matter which lug ... which show non-infinite ohms?

1 month later
#43 1 year ago

Had to step away from this project for a few weeks, but back at it now.

Quick refresh - when Set Up Switch activated it should turn on Hold relay and turn off Tilt relay. Instead it is tripping 10 amp playfield breaker.

Recommendation was to check everything with a black w/white trace wire so one by I unsoldered the wire, then activated the Set Up switch

-left side playfield bumpers
-right side playfield bumpers
-tilt relay
-hold relay
-kickout hole
-G relay
-H relay

In all instances the 10amp breaker sill tripped when disconnected.

The black w/white trace wire is also connected to 2 switches on the score motor. I did not unsolder either of these as part of test.

Based on these results, not sure what to do next?

Thanks for the help

#44 1 year ago

if you disconnected all the devices, then you've proven the devices themselves aren't the issue ... that would mean you probably have a short on the wire.

typical shorts happen at places the wire harness rubs against metal or under the edges of any metal clamps attaching the harness to wood, but anything is possible.

a rare example would be switch stacks that are shorting a switch blade to the unit frame. Occasionally that's intentional and a blade has metal wafers so it connects to the screw, but unlikely things like a missing insulating tube in the stack happen.

when you disconnected the wire from a device that had two wire segments, did you separate the wires or leave them soldered together?

if you separate, you will break the daisy chain and will at least find places where the issue is "downstream". 'course, there's no way to know what order the wire chains around between the devices except by breaking the chain and using an ohmeter to see what is still almost zero ohms to a detached segment.

#45 1 year ago

another thing to check is the bar that connected to the coin slide has the plastic insulators on the pegs and the switch blades the pegs are operating can't touch the bar directly.

it looks like a tab poking off the bar near the timer is operating a switch. If there's no plastic piece on that bar, then the entire bar is energized when the tab touches the switch blade. If the peg at the air cylinder end of the bar has no plastic sleeve on it, then you have a direct short onto the black/white wire when the bar is pushed in far enough.

#46 1 year ago

Thanks so much for the feedback.

1-coin bar has plastic insulator (photo below)

2-I did not separate the 2 wires when disconnecting the playfield devises.

Think about this now - one wire goes up harness, other goes down harness. Seems like it flows sequentially to how things are wired on playfield.
When I check continuity from point to point my meter beeps.

3-there are two instances of black w/white trace wire in the back box. In both cases the wire is attached to frame of stepper units (photos below). Anything I need to check here?

4-the black w/white trace wire is connected to switches on score motor 2 and 3 (photos below). Anything I need to check here?

5-below is photo showing black w/white trace wire going into Jones plug. With playfield fuse blowing is this area a concern?

If I’m clear next step is to desolder the various devises, separate the wires and try to locate the section of wire with short.

Am I looking for no continuity (no beep on meter) between 2 points on the wire or will there always show continuity despite the short?

Thank you again for the help

14829C28-F59B-4199-96A7-A9575D0E79D8 (resized).jpeg14829C28-F59B-4199-96A7-A9575D0E79D8 (resized).jpeg255F36EE-14A8-4EC8-A959-D337A4067824 (resized).jpeg255F36EE-14A8-4EC8-A959-D337A4067824 (resized).jpeg630EBB7A-5DC8-4737-BBC4-5E3DC1D9B429 (resized).jpeg630EBB7A-5DC8-4737-BBC4-5E3DC1D9B429 (resized).jpeg7FFB2A5D-3614-4F8A-BC6A-F324942ED07C (resized).jpeg7FFB2A5D-3614-4F8A-BC6A-F324942ED07C (resized).jpeg863EAE58-C3BD-4C95-A9AF-19FB70BACFC1 (resized).jpeg863EAE58-C3BD-4C95-A9AF-19FB70BACFC1 (resized).jpegA2A0178E-4A1F-4985-B99E-FD08AFF9EE20 (resized).jpegA2A0178E-4A1F-4985-B99E-FD08AFF9EE20 (resized).jpeg
#47 1 year ago

what I meant was wire 60 segments in a daisy chain won't necessarily connect in the order things are drawn on the schematic.

the setup switch has a double wire 60 on the blade. The schem would suggest one goes to a tilt relay switch and the other to a hold relay switch, but that's not where they necessarily go. They probably go to whatever is physically closest.

before doing anything, I'd take a look at what's going on in your 3rd pic in post 46. Where are the wires connected to the ring terminal that is also tied to wire 60 going? Also check score motor switches just to ensure the bent lugs on the switch blades aren't touching or a loose wire strand is bridging them. You can unbend the lugs or bend them the other way to ensure no contact with each other.

below is the schem. The breaker pops when the red and yellow circuit are tied together without enough resistance between them to limit the current below 10A

You said you put paper between the slide switch contacts and the breaker still pops. The below assumes you have paper in there so 56 and 58 are not connected.

That means:

1] when the game is first turned on, the red circuit is all that has the 25V power.

2] the yellow circuit is all that is connected to neutral

3] the breaker is happy.

4] you close the setup switch and now all the blue stuff is connected to yellow and the breaker pops. The obvious answer is the hold relay coil is bad, but you disconnected that and the breaker still pops, so somehow the red and blue circuits are connecting together.

for example, if a green highlighted tilt switch was stuck closed and the tilt coil resistance was too low (coil is bad), that would pop the breaker.

with power off stick an ohmeter probe on wire 60 and other probe on the breaker and you'd be measuring the resistance of the hold relay coil ... assuming none of the green switches are closed. If they are, then you'd be measuring the hold and tilt coils in parallel, but is still shouldn't be near zero ohms.

if you open/stick paper between the tilt relay switch contacts with wires 60 and 55 on the blades (the tilt switch in the blue path), your meter should then show infinite ohms. If it doesn't, you have a short.

pull the playfield plug and stick the probes on wire 60 and 56 on the plug pins. If you don't have infinite ohms, the problem is on the playfield. If you do, stick the probes on 60 and 56 in the socket and open the tilt switch. If you don't have infinite ohms, the problem is in the cabinet or head. I assume you can pull a head plug to eliminate the head.

once narrowed down to the playfield, cabinet or head, then you can disconnect wire 60 and separate the wires to see which segment has the issue and follow that.

hopefully 10% of the above made sense and you can figure out what to do. The alternative is just separate wire 60 segments and close the setup switch until the breaker stops popping, then reconnect and work your way down the segment problem segment.

note that wire 60 is attached to unit frames, so check those units carefully looking for switch blades or wires that are touching the frame when they shouldn't be. The switch blades should have "fish paper" insulation when they are pushed by things on the unit ... make sure the paper isn't sliced thru.
lucky star  problem (resized).jpglucky star problem (resized).jpg

btw, in previous posts you said the breaker trips when you manually close the hold relay. Just to be sure, the only thing you are currently doing is turning on the game and manually closing the setup switch, right? The hold relay is unpowered and nothing is obviously powering when the setup switch closes ... you close the setup switch and the 10A breaker in the 25V circuit immediately pops?

#48 1 year ago

Lots of great info here. Thanks

Had to read this a few times and I’m sure will be reading several more times

1)
Pic 3 - this two wires are only 1 long and don’t connect to anything.

question - why would the 60 wire be connected to the frames?

I will go through the 2 step units and check for something errant touching the frame

Fish paper insulation - not familiar with the term. What is it?

2)
As for the 60 wire path, I have been following the locations under the playfield, not the schematic. So in below photo the 60 wires coming off bottom kickout go right to H relay and left to the left side playfield switches (blue tape next to it)

3)
I’ll check the motor switches lugs per your note.

If not the issue then I’ll work to isolate where in game short exists - playfield, cabinet, box.

If it’s the playfield I’ll unsolder all the 60 wires, decouple the pairs and one by one start connecting.

Really appreciate the detailed info you have been providing. Great learning experience.

18135BB3-2509-4260-92F5-1FCEA38B681F (resized).jpeg18135BB3-2509-4260-92F5-1FCEA38B681F (resized).jpeg
#49 1 year ago

And finally, confirming the only thing I’m doing is turning on the game, activating the slide bar and then holding the Set-up switch which trips the breaker.

#50 1 year ago
Quoted from megoman:

And finally, confirming the only thing I’m doing is turning on the game, activating the slide bar and then holding the Set-up switch which trips the breaker.

what happens if you don't do anything with the slide but manually activate the timer ... just turn on the game, wind up the timer and close the setup switch?

Quoted from megoman:

Pic 3 - this two wires are only 1 long and don’t connect to anything.
question - why would the 60 wire be connected to the frames?

cut wires not connected to anything is odd and the wire 60 connection is a hack - but seems correct per the schem. I should probably pull the pacific pinball museums head and take a look on monday.

the unit frames are a convenient way to get a circuit connected to a wiper finger. Later machines use a nylon ratchet, so that trick doesn't work and two wiper fingers and a bunch of extra rivets are needed to do the same thing.

Quoted from megoman:

Fish paper insulation - not familiar with the term. What is it?

fish paper is tough fiber reinforced vulcanized heavyweight paper. It's used in strips in switch stacks as an insulator to prevent blades from touching things they shouldn't.

e.g. in the below pic, the fish paper (green arrow) is keeping the blade next to it (blue arrow) from touching the metal frame and pieces that are connected to wire 60 (red arrows).

fishpaper (resized).jpgfishpaper (resized).jpg

the yellow circle is the kind of place to watch out for ... if the wire insulation has pulled back or someone assembled the switch stack wrong, a blade/wire may be connected to the frame. When the frame and blade wire are energized, the fuse may do it's duty. It kinda looks like there's a metal wire lug piece sandwiched directly under the metal tension plate (which is connected to the frame via the screws), but it's probably just a shadow.

any wire touching the frame should be quickly checked to ensure the insulation hasn't been cut through.

the most interesting fish paper failure is when it's used to insulate a metal door button from a switch with 120V on it. If the fish paper breaks or wears thru, the metal button has 120V. People notice that

why it's called fish paper ... pick your urban legend. I like the theory that originally they impregnated the paper with fish oil as part of the manufacturing process.

Quoted from megoman:

2)
As for the 60 wire path, I have been following the locations under the playfield, not the schematic. So in below photo the 60 wires coming off bottom kickout go right to H relay and left to the left side playfield switches (blue tape next to it)

you have the luxury that you can mostly tell the wire colors on the game. However, you should use the schem eventually to make sure you check all the places wire 60 connects.

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