(Topic ID: 250458)

Gottlieb King Pin Start Sequence (A Relay?)

By redrock

4 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

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  • 14 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by dgAmpGuy
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#1 4 years ago

All of the required actions seem to work. The issue is that the Ball Count Unit resets but does not go to Ball 1. I think that it might be the "A" relay. This relay and the "A" Reset relay are both not energizer before the start button is depressed. When started, the "A" tries to pull in but just chatters and doesn't move enough to lock with the reset armature. (Bad coil?)

The Operating Instructions discuss this but the question is the state of the A relay before the star sequence is started. All six contacts are opposite in the schematic to what is actually the state when power is off. The switch that feeds the Add Ball Count Unit shows closed but is open with no power. I think my confusion is how both of the "A" relays interact and the "A" coil..

#2 4 years ago

Check the Trough sw. Also might be a score motor sw.

Capture (resized).PNGCapture (resized).PNGCapture1 (resized).PNGCapture1 (resized).PNG
#3 4 years ago

Thanks for the tips. Yes, the Ball Count cycles as you indicated. Great! But the "A" relay is still an issue. I have to push the armature by hand to get it latched on. It still chatters and will not travel the full length to lock in place.

Any suggestions on this?

#4 4 years ago
Quoted from redrock:

the "A" relay is still an issue. I have to push the armature by hand to get it latched on. It still chatters and will not travel the full length to lock in place.

Any suggestions on this?

Test whether the problem is in the relay or in the circuit by clipping an alligator clip jumper wire on the fuse and tapping the other end on the coil. Or the other way around.

#5 4 years ago

Check the screw on the relay and the spring.
Raff

#6 4 years ago

Assuming the A relay coil is sound ( you could de-solder the wires to check its resistance against a known coil coil of equal value, assuming theres another to hand) you say that it's not fully engaging. Have you inspected it for maybe a foreign body that has dropped in so the armature cannot fully operate?
And check the leaf blades for correct adjustment. I have had this before where somebody had over adjusted a leaf so the armature could not fully open or close properly, meaning the coil kept going on and off, I.e 'chattering' It should give a nice click sound when it latches.

#7 4 years ago

jrpinball gdonovan have a “pin up” and a “king pin” maybe they could give you a hand

#8 4 years ago

General rule: the schematic depicts the state of the machine when it is energized and ready for play.

#9 4 years ago

Clarification: For Gottlieb, to determine whether the schematic is drawn with the power on or off, check the hold relay switch: it's closed if the schematic is drawn with the power "on", and closed if drawn with power "off".

#10 4 years ago

Both coils are A-3891 # 29 and are 16.3-16.6 ohms out of the circuit. Unlike other relay coils they do pull in but chatter; the reset coil less than the switch coil. My guess is the switch coil stays in because it's a constant voltage while the short normal pulse doesn't pull all the way in and thus the bad contact and chatter.

Any ideas?

#11 4 years ago

I have a short video but there doesn't seem to be a way to attached it but I have attached a static picture for what it's worth.

The armature is lose on its pivot point and the spring provides some tension. This all look correct but gives the armature some leeway. Maybe the coils are not original or too weak?

A Relay (resized).jpgA Relay (resized).jpg
#12 4 years ago

I got it to work. Do I know more than the collective knowledge of the forum. No! I just adjusted the position of the coils, made the switch contacts closer together, cleaned them all, tested everything with no power, and it just worked. Thank to all who posted help; I couldn't work this EM machine without the help of the forum.

3 weeks later
#13 4 years ago

I'm still having issues with the "A" relay on start-up. I believe the schematic is drawn with the power off. (The Hold relay is drawn with power off as off; the relay lock switch is open so there is no power to the coil.) The issue is that the four "A" contacts that reset the score reels are closed without power but the schematic shows all four open.)

If I opened the four switches at power off, then they would close during the start-up sequence. This seems the way to go but would like verification before I bend all the contacts.

Further complicating this is that the "A" coil when released open fully, but if released and the "A Reset" coil energizes it opens less; thus there are three positions -- which can't be correct.

Many thanks -- it's hard to believe someone changed all the blades!

#14 4 years ago

I can’t open up my machine right now, but I did look at my schematic and tried to zoom in on your picture. The A relay contacts should be open when you depress the A reset armature. The A relay closes and latches as part of the game start sequence.

It sounds like your A contacts are incorrectly adjusted to either be closed when the A is unlatched or at least over adjusted to the point where they give too much tension whe A is trying to latch. I’d do the reset, make sure the contacts are open, then latch it and make sure there is good contact, but not an excessive amount of tension.

Everything with these relays is a balancing act. Also, don’t underestimate how much the guy before you could have messed things up. Probably happened long ago, before all this info was available with a google search

Good luck,
Dave

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