(Topic ID: 255089)

Gottlieb King Pin G relay issue


By tscottn

15 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 20 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 13 days ago by Runbikeskilee
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 15 days ago

Hi guys,

This is a old problem that has plagued this machine since I took possession.. I started a topic on this awhile ago but I have lots of new info to share and a video so you experts can see the problem actually occurring..

While playing a 5 ball game.. the G relay is supposed to lock on after all the pins are knocked down the first time.. This happens as advertised, however.... While the G relay is locked on anytime I start hitting a flipper either side or both at the same time, the G relay will randomly unlatch for some reason.. The troubleshooting I have done are, adjusted all the switches on the G relay so that I get that nice crisp click when it latches.. all the switches are clean and I replaced the actual locking switch on that relay as well.. I also replaced the relay plate and out of desperation I replaced the relay with a new 9740 I had lying around. As you can see from the video, it only takes a few hits of the either flipper to unlatch the relay. If you look close you can see the relay bouncing randomly while I hit the flippers, then it just unlatches all together.

When I put the game on 3 ball the relay is latched from the get go but I can see it bouncing and trying to unlatch but it just gets re-energized so fast it never unlatches fully..

Also, as you can see, no scoring , the score motor isint running and nothing else is happening.. just a flip of the flippers and boom.

Ok please let me know what you think.. I am about to pull all my hair out of my head trying to figure this one out. Thanks so much.

#2 15 days ago

Check this switch for proper adjustment. For a switch to work 3 things are necessary:
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening

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#3 15 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Check this switch for proper adjustment. For a switch to work 3 things are necessary:
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening[quoted image]

Hi Howard, So I checked the switch again and cleaned it, adjusted it and then tried it with the same results. I just finished replacing it with a brand new switch as well with the same results.. Its like some power fluctuation is making the switch unlatch.. any other suggestions? Not sure if you watched the video but you can clearly see the switch locked in and then just loosing power

#4 14 days ago

Something to try

Your working alright on 3 ball but not 5 ball.

Check Motor Switch 4C, Second Switch - It actuates G Relay on 5 ball only. You may be getting only partial current.

Clean and gap the switch.

#5 14 days ago
Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

Something to try
Your working alright on 3 ball but not 5 ball.
Check Motor Switch 4C, Second Switch - It actuates G Relay on 5 ball only. You may be getting only partial current.
Clean and gap the switch.

It actually just masks the problem on 3 ball. When on 3 ball you can still see the relay jump and try to unlatch but the powered circuit just re latches it so fast it cant release all the way.

also is int 4c a normally open switch? in the video i am actuating the G relay manually..

#6 14 days ago
Quoted from tscottn:

also is int 4c a normally open switch

Not sure. Got the info from the manual. You can just actuate the switch by turning the score motor by hand to find out.

If not the issue I can check my machine tomorrow and get you some pics.

#7 14 days ago
Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

Not sure. Got the info from the manual. You can just actuate the switch by turning the score motor by hand to find out.
If not the issue I can check my machine tomorrow and get you some pics.

Ok thanks.. I did check 4c and the switch is clean and gapped correctly. Not sure if that could even be a issue since im manually laching the relay by hand but I wanted to eliminate that potential as well.

#8 14 days ago

Ok, you are confident that the lock-in switch on the G relay is clean and adjusted optimally.

The next thing I personally would consider is the possibility that the power to the G-relay circuit is being interrupted momentarily by some other NC switch that is "bouncing" open due to vibration, which would also cause the G relay to drop out.

From the schematic, there are 3 switches on the "power line" (denoted by the vertical line on the far right side), and located at I-10 and I-11, that all must conduct continuously to deliver power to the G relay circuit. They are: the switch on the hold relay, an NC switch on the 6th position of the ball count unit, and an NC switch at zero position on the ball count unit. Additionally, there is the bounce switch located at H-14. If any of those 4 switches were to "bounce open" for a fraction of a second, the G relay will drop out.

Try cleaning and adjusting those switches, just to ensure that power is not being interrupted momentarily.

If that doesn't fix the issue, one other thing you might examine is whether the return spring on the G relay is proper and isn't exerting too much tension to try and return the G relay to rest position.

Other possibilities could be a cracked solder joint on one of those switches or a microbreak in a wire under the insulation, such that vibration is causing momentary loss of power to the circuit. I hope you don't have to go there as those can be tough to find.

One additional question: are your flipper coils standard A-5141 units?

Lee

#9 14 days ago

Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

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#10 14 days ago

Here’s my 2cents. In the beginning of video you have the ‘big blue spark’ on the last switch on right furthest from stack screws.

1st, tighten switch stack screws if you haven’t already. If loose or slightly, you will have to check switch gaps again. Not much room for error on the gap on those switches.

Make sure all blades are in appropriate slot. (which they appear to be)

I believe you wrote you cleaned contacts. On the switch I suspect with spark, use a metal file followed with a flex stone file. You may have a pit in one of the contacts on that switch. Inspect closely with magnifier if you can. Hope that may get you going. Good luck.

#11 14 days ago

First Thank you to runbikeskilee , howardr and cash_riprock for those last replies to this thread.. I had to wait 24 hour before I could post again due to verification.. anyway.. I will try to make this as clear and concise as possible based on everyone input.

1) the G relay lock in switch (5A) is brand new, clean and adjusted properly. All solder joints look good and clean with no breaks that I could see..

2) I jumpered everything in the circuit with basically the same results.. Jumping all the following directly to 5A on G produce a bypass and makes G lock on..
a) 6th and 0 position switch,
b) the R relay make side of the make or break switch,
c) 15v power direct from the fuse thus bypassing the bounce switch,
d) the bounce switch itself..

Like I said, all of these produced the same results.. G would lock on and stay locked on...however these is a interesting thing to note here.. While direct power is supplied to this switch, as I use the flippers, you can see the G relay trying to unlatch.. ( slight little momentary bounces on the switch) but because its getting direct power it just re-locks very fast causing no dropout of the G relay.. This is the exact same thing that happens when the game is on 3 ball play as well..

There is also another interesting thing to note here which makes this all the more suspicious of some type of short somewhere.. While G is locked on, I can manually open the make/break on R to cause G to unlatch, but this is sporadic at best.. sometimes it wont unlatch at all and sometimes it will.. but if I latch relay H ( special completed relay) at the same time as G, H will always drop out perfectly while I open make/break on R, but G will sometimes stay energized and sometimes it will unlatch like it should..

This is just all very weird and I think it may just be above my skill set.. Im thinking of just giving in to defeat, putting the game on 3 ball play and calling it a day.. Unless someone has anything else I can try.. If you need a video of anything let me know.. But for now, I feel like this issue has finally gotten the best of me..

I hope all this info makes sense.. Thank you all.

#12 14 days ago
Quoted from tscottn:

Im thinking of just giving in to defeat,

If you'd like to try a phone call, send me your cellphone number in a private message and I'll make a first reply with a text message.

#13 14 days ago

Is it only the flippers that are resulting in the G-relay dropping out?
Will it drop out if you fire the pop bumpers a few times in close succession?

#14 14 days ago

Have you checked the coil itself on the G relay, and particularly the wires coming out of the coil to the solder lugs? What about the solder joints there?

#15 14 days ago

Sorry, I took some pics of my G relay but lost them uploading, weird. First time that has happened on a PC to me. Let me know if you still want them and I will take new ones. Don't think they will help as it Looks like you have already covered the relay itself.

Does your G relay fall out with just flipper use or does it also fall out when you shake the machine?

If it falls out in general I would check your wires as one could be almost ready to break somewhere in the circuit or a cold solder joint somewhere. also make sure no tabs from switches are touching each other on relays. one crossed wire can cause a lot of grief. Time for a magnifier and bright light IMO.

#16 14 days ago
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:

Is it only the flippers that are resulting in the G-relay dropping out?
Will it drop out if you fire the pop bumpers a few times in close succession?

i think the pops will cause it too but not nearly as often..

#17 14 days ago
Quoted from SirScott:

Have you checked the coil itself on the G relay, and particularly the wires coming out of the coil to the solder lugs? What about the solder joints there?

yes they all look good to me..

#18 14 days ago
Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

Sorry, I took some pics of my G relay but lost them uploading, weird. First time that has happened on a PC to me. Let me know if you still want them and I will take new ones. Don't think they will help as it Looks like you have already covered the relay itself.
Does your G relay fall out with just flipper use or does it also fall out when you shake the machine?
If it falls out in general I would check your wires as one could be almost ready to break somewhere in the circuit or a cold solder joint somewhere. also make sure no tabs from switches are touching each other on relays. one crossed wire can cause a lot of grief. Time for a magnifier and bright light IMO.

ive tried shaking and smacking everywhere and I cannot get the coil to drop out.. its ok on the pics,., no tabs touching or anything it all looks very clean to me.. but it seems like there is a short somewhere

#19 14 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If you'd like to try a phone call, send me your cellphone number in a private message and I'll make a first reply with a text message.

pm sent thank you

#20 13 days ago
Quoted from tscottn:

i think the pops will cause it too but not nearly as often..

The reason I asked that question was to try and ascertain whether the issue was vibration induced, or perhaps was resulting from an ultra low-resistance flipper coil that was drawing excessive current away from the other relays in the game.

I might also try exchanging the return spring on the G relay with one from a different relay. Might not help, but it is a quick try. I once had a Gottlieb with a similar dropout issue and it turned out that some prior owner had replaced the return spring with a similar length spring that was much stronger. It took very little vibration for that spring to yank the relay plate back to unenergized position.

Lee

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