(Topic ID: 209688)

Gottlieb Jumping Jack

By crujones4life

6 years ago


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There are 127 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 6 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi crujones4life
when we toggle-on a Gottlieb pin having the Control-Bank: The QB-Game-Over-Relay "plunges" - also the ZB-First-Ball-Relay. Then (please do / try): We can press the armature on R-Hold-Relay and the relay stays actuated. The same on H-Tilt-Hold-Relay --- questions: What happens in Ypour pin when You do manually "actuate these two relays" ? After the "actuate these two relays" You then manually reset the Control-Bank - what is the QB-Relay doing ? Greetings Rolf

Power on and QB actuates. ZB does not. Pressed start and motor turned once and bonus stepper under the playfield reset. Hold relay is on game is in tilt. I manually actuate tilt hold relay and it stays actuated. I manually press control bank relay and QB is released. So apparently QB is functioning correctly? At this point it appears nothing is actuated on the reset bank at all...pic is of reset bank at this stage.

So what are we thinking? Should ZB be actuated at this point? Could THAT be the issue?

15197926010281709027901 (resized).jpg15197926010281709027901 (resized).jpg

#52 6 years ago

Also I pressed start again and PB actuated. ZB is still not actuated...

#53 6 years ago

So I manually actuated the ZB relay when powered off. Turned on and game actually tried to reset. The motor kept turning and the AX relay in the head kept turning round and round...At this point SB2, SB1, QB, ZB, LB are all actuated while AX and motor are constantly spinning.

So some times it does what I said above and sometimes the reset bar will reset everything (except score reels which never even try to reset).

No matter what the game will never advance from player 1 ball 1.

#54 6 years ago

Hi crujones4life
here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/ then to the EM Games http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair - a good site.
Also here http://www.pinrepair.com/ then down to 1930s 1978 EM http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm . Here http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#axrelayvideo the video is about "AX-Relay" and other (mini) Interlock-Type relays - LATE Gottlieb AX-Relays. Unfortunately - in former pins AX was used for something else - Your AX-Relay is the AX-00-to-90-Unit-Relay. Anyway, in the pinrepair-video at time 00:48 to 00:56 Clay (?) shows how to manually activate / actuate / plunge the relays in the Control-Bank. When You do manually activate - if possible: Have the pin toggled off and the main power cord unplugged (Safety Reasons) --- when You have to activate while the pin is running: Wear rubber gloves - keep in mind "The RESET-Coil" is actuated by 110VAC - and throughout the pin 110VAC may be at solder-lugs / wires --- never touch solder-lugs.

You have the pin toggled-off and the main power cord unplugged. You want to be helpful - You manually step ALL Score-Drums forward to reach ZERO-Position. See the JPG --- I drew a green line - an extension on "Switchstacks on the fifth, black cam / wheel sitting nearest to the wood - cam-5 on the Player-Unit in the Backbox". Go to the Backbox and manually step and step and step the unit - look for "the ONLY tooth on the black cam actuates its switchstack - THIS is the so-called Home-Position - also called Zero-Position also called Position-for-a-One-Player-Game-playing-the-first-Ball". From this Home-Position: Step some 8 or 9 or 10 more steps.
Then manually actuate the QB-Relay and the ZB-Relay in the Control-Bank - they shall be plunged.
NOW plug-in, toggle-on - manually actuate (press the armature) the R-Hold-Relay (does it stays pulling ?) - manually actuate the H-Tilt-Hold-Relay (does it stay pulling ?) - start a game (may want to press the armature on S-Start-Relay) - what happens ? Greetings Rolf

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1 week later
#55 6 years ago

When I do exactly as you described....
Game resets to player 1 ball 1.
Playfield gets power and ball is ejected.
Game will score points.
When ball drains it stays on player 1 ball 1.

During a game no relays on reset bank are actuated.

#56 6 years ago

Hi crujones4life
the schematics says to the Control-Bank: SB2 and SB1 "Reset Control" --- XB-Last-Ball-Relay --- QB-Game-Over-Relay --- ZB-First-Ball-Relay --- PB-2nd-Player-Relay --- LB-Bonus-Value-Relay. Here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1277&picno=30991 behind the paperwork is the Control-Bank --- at the end of the Start- / Reset-Cycle the huge arm (left-right) is moved means the Control-Bank is resetted.
Do You have paper tags on the Control-Bank ? When You make points with the first ball on the playfield: DOES the ZB-Relay "plunge / actuate" ? Greetings Rolf

#57 6 years ago

ZB never actuates. Even after points are scored.

#58 6 years ago

Hi crujones4life
the "ZB-First-Ball-Relay" should be called "ZB-telling-the-brain-of-the-Pin-Relay: A game has started, Points are made - brain - when a ball is lost: Step to next ball / next player".
Before digging into "wiring to ZB-Relay" - please try: After You have started a new game - the huge arm on the Control-Bank has actuated: Then toggle-off the pin (main power switch) - then toggle-on the pin - question: DOES the QB-Game-Over-Relay plunge / actuate ? (it must) , also: DOES the ZB-First-Ball-Relay plunge / actuate ? (it must) - Greetings Rolf

#59 6 years ago

Hi crujones4life
an add-on to post-58 - IF (if, if) the ZB-Relay plunges / actuates when You toggle-on the pin - then start a new game - when the pin gives You the first ball: Make some points, then actuate the pendulum tilt (You loose action on the playfield) - DOES the ZB-Relay plunge ? - then put the (played) ball into the Outhole - question: Does the pin now steps to second ball ? Greetings Rolf

#60 6 years ago

Just wanted to you are AWESOME for taking the time to help me out. I really appreciate it. I will try what you said and report back tomorrow. Thanks!

1 week later
#61 6 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi crujones4life
the "ZB-First-Ball-Relay" should be called "ZB-telling-the-brain-of-the-Pin-Relay: A game has started, Points are made - brain - when a ball is lost: Step to next ball / next player".
Before digging into "wiring to ZB-Relay" - please try: After You have started a new game - the huge arm on the Control-Bank has actuated: Then toggle-off the pin (main power switch) - then toggle-on the pin - question: DOES the QB-Game-Over-Relay plunge / actuate ? (it must) , also: DOES the ZB-First-Ball-Relay plunge / actuate ? (it must) - Greetings Rolf

When I do as you say above...QB will actuate when powered on. ZB does not actuate.

#62 6 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi crujones4life
an add-on to post-58 - IF (if, if) the ZB-Relay plunges / actuates when You toggle-on the pin - then start a new game - when the pin gives You the first ball: Make some points, then actuate the pendulum tilt (You loose action on the playfield) - DOES the ZB-Relay plunge ? - then put the (played) ball into the Outhole - question: Does the pin now steps to second ball ? Greetings Rolf

I turned on game and QB actuates but ZB does not...so I manually actuated the ZB relay after starting a game...score points...drain ball now moves to ball 2...repeat process ball 3 etc...(the whole time ZB stays actuated)...when ball 4 drains the game makes a horrible buzzing sound as LB actuates but ZB won't release. Turned off and on and both relays still actuated (along with QB).

ZB has to be the issue! Right?

How do I go about trouble shooting WHY ZB won't actuate on its own? Motor switches? Wiring? Shorted coil? SB armature(this game have one?)

#63 6 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

How do I go about trouble shooting WHY ZB won't actuate on its own?

The ZB (1st Ball relay) should actuate when you score 10 or 100 points. If it doesn't, diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires. Also it (ZB) has a switch that keeps its coil from pulling once it's been actuated.

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#64 6 years ago

Couldn't get a great pic but ZB is the only coil that is toasty brown where it should be white on the end . All the other coils are white.

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#65 6 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

The ZB (1st Ball relay) should actuate when you score 10 or 100 points. If it doesn't, diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires. Also it (ZB) has a switch that keeps its coil from pulling once it's been actuated.

I am so bad with this. When you have time could you let me know where to place each side of the jumper. Maybe using one of my pics? What do you think about the toasty coil ZB?

#66 6 years ago

2 more reminders in case it somehow means something...Score reels NEVER reset...some switches (50 points I believe) cause motor to turn but points are NEVER added for 50 points relay.

#67 6 years ago

Did some re-reading and it looks like score reels should be reset after ZB is activated.

1. ZB coil is toasty. Tests at 0.5 ohms.
2. ZB never actuates.
3. Score reels never reset.

Would ordering a new coil for ZB be a good idea? I need to order another coil for a different game anyway. Also need new rubber for this one...

#68 6 years ago

Hi crujones4life
I am Swiss-German speaking - when talking english about pins I try to use the "right" words and I hope that other pinsiders use the "right" words - or soon I am lost ...
A problem of understanding: In post-66 You write (two reminders) "Score-Reels never reset" - "targets / switches on the playfield worth 50 points - when actuated: The motor runs but no points are given" --- Do You mean "When starting a new game: The pin starts up and kicks out the ball and can play --- but in the Start-up- / Reset-Procedure the Score-Drums will not reset means they do not step forward for to reach Zero-Position ?
A problem - when playing: Hitting on the playfield something worth 50 points --- the motor makes an turn of 120 degrees - but no points are added to the Score-Drums.
(((In other words: Do You talk about two not-related faults ?)))

ZB-Relay - Your post-62 --- here the Jack in the Box http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1277&picno=29335 - the huge Control-Bank - in the Control-Bank in Your pin are mounted: LB, PB, ZB, QB, XB, SB1, SB2. Every one may at an specific time "plunge" on its own --- BUT (deactivated means) resetted: ALL will be resetted at the same moment - when the huge arm on the Control-Bank is moved. I read Your "the whole time the ZB stays actuated" --- I am not surprised - the next time the ZB will be resetted is after game has ended and You start a new game and then the Start-up / Reset-Stuff in the new game will be done - at end of the Start-up then will the Reset-Arm on the Control-Bank move - reset ALL the relays sitting in the Control-Bank.

Buzzing sound when ball-4 is lost (thats the same as "the pin does move to ball-5"): I believe it has to do with http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1329&picno=8415 "quite up in the picture, "lamp 10 times bonus value" shall be lit on last ball. I believe the two Eject-Holes way up on the playfield: The LIT Eject-Hole makes also this "lamp 10 times bonus value to be lit" - question: Do You also get the buzzing sound when You use the "worthy, lit" Eject-Hole ?

ZB-Coil is toasty: I wold buy a new coil.
ZB-Relay never actuates: Wear rubber gloves when You manually actuate the ZB-Relay. You must actuate the ZB-Relay after starting a new game for one or for two players --- when the first player plays ball-1 making some points - NOW You must actuate the ZB-Relay or You will be forever on Player-1 plays ball-1.

Can You live with "manually activating the ZB-Relay" - wait for a new coil to come - and in the time waiting for the new coil to come: We look at some (other) problems --- what problem shall we look-at next ? Greetings Rolf

#69 6 years ago

Hi crujones4life
an add-on to post-68: Whenever You want to start a new game: The QB-Relay must be plunged and the ZB-Relay must be plunged - otherwise the Start-up of the new game may not work. Greetings Rolf

#70 6 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi crujones4life
an add-on to post-68: Whenever You want to start a new game: The QB-Relay must be plunged and the ZB-Relay must be plunged - otherwise the Start-up of the new game may not work. Greetings Rolf

This is what I do to get the game to start. Activate (plunge) ZB while power is off then power on. But the score reels will not reset, they do not even try. Ball kicks out player 1 ball 1. That is where it stays. Points will score and bonus will count down when ball drains. If I manually activate (plunge) ZB again then the game will advance to ball 2, ball 3, ball 4, then drain and get buzzing sound.

So could ZB bad coil be the cause of my problems or just a symptom of another problem?

#71 6 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi crujones4life
I am Swiss-German speaking - when talking english about pins I try to use the "right" words and I hope that other pinsiders use the "right" words - or soon I am lost ...
A problem of understanding: In post-66 You write (two reminders) "Score-Reels never reset" - "targets / switches on the playfield worth 50 points - when actuated: The motor runs but no points are given" --- Do You mean "When starting a new game: The pin starts up and kicks out the ball and can play --- but in the Start-up- / Reset-Procedure the Score-Drums will not reset means they do not step forward for to reach Zero-Position ?
A problem - when playing: Hitting on the playfield something worth 50 points --- the motor makes an turn of 120 degrees - but no points are added to the Score-Drums.
(((In other words: Do You talk about two not-related faults ?)))
ZB-Relay - Your post-62 --- here the Jack in the Box http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1277&picno=29335 - the huge Control-Bank - in the Control-Bank in Your pin are mounted: LB, PB, ZB, QB, XB, SB1, SB2. Every one may at an specific time "plunge" on its own --- BUT (deactivated means) resetted: ALL will be resetted at the same moment - when the huge arm on the Control-Bank is moved. I read Your "the whole time the ZB stays actuated" --- I am not surprised - the next time the ZB will be resetted is after game has ended and You start a new game and then the Start-up / Reset-Stuff in the new game will be done - at end of the Start-up then will the Reset-Arm on the Control-Bank move - reset ALL the relays sitting in the Control-Bank.
Buzzing sound when ball-4 is lost (thats the same as "the pin does move to ball-5"): I believe it has to do with http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1329&picno=8415 "quite up in the picture, "lamp 10 times bonus value" shall be lit on last ball. I believe the two Eject-Holes way up on the playfield: The LIT Eject-Hole makes also this "lamp 10 times bonus value to be lit" - question: Do You also get the buzzing sound when You use the "worthy, lit" Eject-Hole ?
ZB-Coil is toasty: I wold buy a new coil.
ZB-Relay never actuates: Wear rubber gloves when You manually actuate the ZB-Relay. You must actuate the ZB-Relay after starting a new game for one or for two players --- when the first player plays ball-1 making some points - NOW You must actuate the ZB-Relay or You will be forever on Player-1 plays ball-1.
Can You live with "manually activating the ZB-Relay" - wait for a new coil to come - and in the time waiting for the new coil to come: We look at some (other) problems --- what problem shall we look-at next ? Greetings Rolf

When a 50 point switch is activated the score motor will turn but points will not score. Problem with the C relay? (50/3000 point relay)

#72 6 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi crujones4life
I am Swiss-German speaking - when talking english about pins I try to use the "right" words and I hope that other pinsiders use the "right" words - or soon I am lost ...
A problem of understanding: In post-66 You write (two reminders) "Score-Reels never reset" - "targets / switches on the playfield worth 50 points - when actuated: The motor runs but no points are given" --- Do You mean "When starting a new game: The pin starts up and kicks out the ball and can play --- but in the Start-up- / Reset-Procedure the Score-Drums will not reset means they do not step forward for to reach Zero-Position ?
A problem - when playing: Hitting on the playfield something worth 50 points --- the motor makes an turn of 120 degrees - but no points are added to the Score-Drums.
(((In other words: Do You talk about two not-related faults ?)))
ZB-Relay - Your post-62 --- here the Jack in the Box http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1277&picno=29335 - the huge Control-Bank - in the Control-Bank in Your pin are mounted: LB, PB, ZB, QB, XB, SB1, SB2. Every one may at an specific time "plunge" on its own --- BUT (deactivated means) resetted: ALL will be resetted at the same moment - when the huge arm on the Control-Bank is moved. I read Your "the whole time the ZB stays actuated" --- I am not surprised - the next time the ZB will be resetted is after game has ended and You start a new game and then the Start-up / Reset-Stuff in the new game will be done - at end of the Start-up then will the Reset-Arm on the Control-Bank move - reset ALL the relays sitting in the Control-Bank.
Buzzing sound when ball-4 is lost (thats the same as "the pin does move to ball-5"): I believe it has to do with http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1329&picno=8415 "quite up in the picture, "lamp 10 times bonus value" shall be lit on last ball. I believe the two Eject-Holes way up on the playfield: The LIT Eject-Hole makes also this "lamp 10 times bonus value to be lit" - question: Do You also get the buzzing sound when You use the "worthy, lit" Eject-Hole ?
ZB-Coil is toasty: I wold buy a new coil.
ZB-Relay never actuates: Wear rubber gloves when You manually actuate the ZB-Relay. You must actuate the ZB-Relay after starting a new game for one or for two players --- when the first player plays ball-1 making some points - NOW You must actuate the ZB-Relay or You will be forever on Player-1 plays ball-1.
Can You live with "manually activating the ZB-Relay" - wait for a new coil to come - and in the time waiting for the new coil to come: We look at some (other) problems --- what problem shall we look-at next ? Greetings Rolf

The eject holes seem to function fine and score correctly when lit. No buzzing.

#73 6 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

I am so bad with this. When you have time could you let me know where to place each side of the jumper. Maybe using one of my pics? What do you think about the toasty coil ZB?

You're in good hands with Rolf, but let me know if you need me to get involved.

#74 6 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

You're in good hands with Rolf, but let me know if you need me to get involved.

Any additional help is welcome. Anything you have to offer I would greatly appreciate.

#75 6 years ago

Hi Howard
thanks for the flowers --- a lot of pinsiders have the knowledge - a bunch is active helping --- maybe my "speciality" is: Now and then I do some "theory" so the OP understands what / why I am after some question --- then the OP might do some analogies on further problems.

Hi crujones4life
(hihi - some theory) the ZB-First-Ball-Relay AAA should be called "hey brain of the pin - when a ball is lost and enters the Outhole AND the ZB-Relay is plunged: You, brain of the pin are entitled to step to next Ball / next Player". Another function BBB of the ZB-Relay is: "Not yet plunged and we press the Replay-Button starts for SECOND Player --- ZB-Relay is plunged: A NEW game starts - resetting everything - kicking out the ball - Ball-1 - ready for a new One-Player-Game.
Another function CCC of the ZB-Relay is - when the ZB-Relay is plunged and You start a game (and so the S-Start-Relay is pulling-in): The SB2-Coil must fire and so SB2 and SB1 do plunge so the stuff "resetting the pin" can be done (through closed switches on SB1 and SB2).
And because You like to play ball-1 then ball-2 then ... : You have a manually work-around on behalf of AAA.
You wear rubber gloves and You can make the ZB-Relay to plunge. You then start a game - the S-Relay actuates and YOU manually (at the same time) make the SB1 and SB2 to plunge --- what happens ? Greetings Rolf

1 week later
#76 6 years ago

Progress!

I replaced the ZB coil and sure enough the original coil was bad. Now when I power on the game QB and ZB actuate. Then I press start and both SB1 and SB2 actuate. The motor then just keeps spinning around and the AX relay in the head just keeps spinning around. It does this forever until I turn the game off.

So the score reels still do not try to reset (Maybe this doesn't happen until we get past where my game is currently stuck? ).

I checked the AX switch and I think it is working correctly. It alternates open and closed with each actuation. I cleaned it's Jones plugs too.

Under what circumstances does AX constantly spin around? What should I look at or try next?

#77 6 years ago

Apparently my AX relay is known as an AS stepper...

Screenshot_20180330-005509 (resized).pngScreenshot_20180330-005509 (resized).png

Also found this...

Screenshot_20180330-010831 (resized).pngScreenshot_20180330-010831 (resized).png

And this...remember my game won't score 50 points (drop targets won't score for example).

Screenshot_20180330-012001 (resized).pngScreenshot_20180330-012001 (resized).png

#78 6 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

Apparently my AX relay is known as an AS stepper...

Yes that's right.

Pinball (resized).pngPinball (resized).png

#79 6 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

Under what circumstances does AX constantly spin around?

The AX relay will spin if the Player unit switch at P3E is closed.

Pinball (resized).pngPinball (resized).png

Pinball (resized).pngPinball (resized).png

#80 6 years ago

Hi crujones4life
I believe the continuous stepping on the AX-Ministepper is coincidentally - the Player-Unit happens to be in a position the AX-Stepper shall step --- the Player-Unit faulty does not step further - so the Player-Unit always is in this position - the motor is running so the AX-Stepper steps.
I refer to post-54 --- You did and You do (?) step the Player-Unit to Home-Position is position-ZERO - then You step some 8,9,10 steps more. Then You start a new game - NOW the Player-Unit must step forward a couple of steps - then the pin does reset the Score-Drums - then the Player-Unit is stepped further --- Player-Unit is stepped reaching Home-Position.

Wear rubber gloves - be careful not to touch solder-lugs --- You start a game --- pin comes to the "AX-Stepper steps and steps and steps" - NOW, YOU manually do an step on the Player-Unit -
maybe the brain of the pin smiles and says: Thanks for the help - from now on I do the stepping myself
maybe nothing happens - then after five seconds do another manually stepping on the Player-Unit -
maybe nothing happens - then after five seconds do another manually stepping on the Player-Unit -
maybe nothing happens - then after five seconds do another manually stepping on the Player-Unit -
do this manually stepping several times - You will reach Home-Position.
Please write about what Your pin is doing when You help - when YOU do (manually) stepping forward the Player-Unit. Greetings Rolf

#81 6 years ago

I manually stepped the player stepper and AX relay stopped spinning. It did not start spinning on it's own but eventually it kicked out a ball. Player 1 ball 1. It does progress through ball 2, 3, 4, when it gets to 5...LB relay is pulled in and a horrible buzzing sound occurs.

I tried several times starting new games. One time the motor just kept running and I let it go for a while and noticed that the player unit was trying to move but the coil was barely pulling the plunger in. After a while it moved one or two spaces...

The score reels will still not reset or even try...

One thing to note is that sometimes when I powered on the game LB would instantly pull in and I would get that horrible buzzing sound.

#82 6 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

I manually stepped the player stepper and AX relay stopped spinning. It did not start spinning on it's own but eventually it kicked out a ball. Player 1 ball 1. It does progress through ball 2, 3, 4, when it gets to 5...LB relay is pulled in and a horrible buzzing sound occurs.
I tried several times starting new games. One time the motor just kept running and I let it go for a while and noticed that the player unit was trying to move but the coil was barely pulling the plunger in. After a while it moved one or two spaces...
The score reels will still not reset or even try...
One thing to note is that sometimes when I powered on the game LB would instantly pull in and I would get that horrible buzzing sound.

In both cases, where is the "horrible buzzing sound" coming from?

#83 6 years ago

It sounds like it is coming from LB or ZB. Somewhere in there. When it happens I turn it off real quick so nothing burns up.

#84 6 years ago

Hi crujones4life
thanks for doing the test (manually stepping on the Player-Unit) - good - when You reach Home-Position (also called position-zero): Then the pin steps on its own through the balls. The "not stepping at starting a new game" is not so easy to detect --- many switches / wirings involved. I will write another post for this problem.

The horrible buzzing sound --- I hope that You toggle-off the pin "right away". From Your post-81 I believe to read: Current is flowing to the coil on LB-Relay - the LB-Relay plunges / actuates --- BUT DOES NOT open its switch (switch must be open when the LB-Relay has actuated) --- faulty current flows to the coil - flows and flows --- coil pulls an pulls and pulls and does the horrible sound.

It is difficult to get at the switches on relays mounted in the Control-Bank - maybe You have wingnuts or something - loosen and kind of folding up the whole Control-Bank (?). There is a short wire of any color - the short wire runs from "one side of the LB-Relay-Coil" to "switch mounted on the LB-Relay". The switch is closed when the relay is not plunged --- the other switchblade has soldered-on wire of color-yellow-mingled-with-black. The fault You have is: THROUGH this switch You have always connection --- maybe a drop of solder fallen at the solder-lugs - maybe a doghair crap of wire there --- maybe the stationary blade is bent and "follows the moved blade when the relay plunges, moved blade moves away --- BUT the stationary blade follows so the switch does (faulty) not open" ?
(((You can if You want check / countercheck: QB-Relay in the Control-Bank also have such an switch to open when relay plunges --- QB-Relay also have a short wire running from coil to switch)))
Greetings Rolf

#85 6 years ago

Hi crujones4life
first some theory --- Bally, Williams and Gottlieb schematics are drawn in an "special situation the pin is in". A game for ONE Player has been started, Reset has been done, Ball has been kicked over to the Shooter Alley - ready for the player to launch the ball. THEN the pin is toggled-off and the 110VAC main power cord is unplugged. Steppers stay as is - Interlock-Relays stay as is - Relays sitting in the Control-Bank (or in another -Bank) stay as is. A simple relay pulling before we toggled-off: This / these simple relays loose power (as we toggle-off) - relay(s) let go. And now the schematics (switches) is drawn with / in this situation.
An schematics is drawn "beautiful / abstract" --- the real wiring in the pin can be "other", NEVER, never there is in a pin - from an connecting wire QQ to XX: Somewhere along the wire a second wire forks-off connecting to YY. See the JPG, upper left corner - a fork-off upwards is drawn. Never there is in a pin such an fork-off. I call the drawing the "AA". Towards the left bottom in the JPG You see "BB", "CC, "DD" - examples how it is really wired in the pin --- ALWAYS a solder-lug is used - TWO wires end on this solder-lug.
In the JPG I marked as "EE" and as "FF" other places with "fork-off in the schematics" --- I then doubled the part - and just added "blue question marks" instead of make several drawings "maybe like that - maybe like this".

Theory of operation --- by now You help the pin through the start-up - You manually step the Player-Unit - step - step - step and at a time the unit reaches Home-Position is also position-zero. From now on the pin does the stepping - along my "marked green" wiring.
When You start a new game then stepping is done "partially along red wiring - partially along green wiring" --- the very last step(s) to then reach Home-Position (is also position-zero) is done "ONLY along my green wiring".

Trouble-Shooting --- YOUR pin does not step "early in the start-up" - it also does not reset Score-Drums - does not step "late in the start-up". From this I clue (maybe I clue right - maybe I clue wrong): The wiring in the upper-right corner of the JPG (and leftbound to "my blue FF") is the first place to investigate for the problem "NO STEPPING on start-up".

Maybe it is simple - the "Switch on S-Relay with wire-color-red-white / with wire brown-white" is no good - one of the wires has broken-off or the switch is out of adjustment - never closing contactpoints are oxidated (?) - closing mechanically but "not closing electrically" ?
Maybe when starting the "SB1- and SB-2 in the Control-Bank do NOT plunge and so the Switch "SB2 in the JPG" is faulty open - or its adjustment is no good - or a wire has broken-off (wire-color-brown-white or wire-color-slate-mingled-with-white) ? Maybe the real wiring (remember what I wrote to AA BB CC DD) is "wire-color-slate-mingled-with-white" runs from SB2-switch to Motor-1A switch and has broken-off at motor-1A switch (and there is a wire wire-color-slate-mingled-with-white running direct from Switch-"P" to motor-1A switch (and this wire happens to be good).

Tricky to check --- not easy to describe / write --- I end this post summing-up: I would have a good look in the pin - look at the stuff that is shown in the upper-right corner of the JPG. Greetings Rolf

0Jumping-Jack-Work-07 (resized).jpg0Jumping-Jack-Work-07 (resized).jpg

2 weeks later
#86 6 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi crujones4life
thanks for doing the test (manually stepping on the Player-Unit) - good - when You reach Home-Position (also called position-zero): Then the pin steps on its own through the balls. The "not stepping at starting a new game" is not so easy to detect --- many switches / wirings involved. I will write another post for this problem.
The horrible buzzing sound --- I hope that You toggle-off the pin "right away". From Your post-81 I believe to read: Current is flowing to the coil on LB-Relay - the LB-Relay plunges / actuates --- BUT DOES NOT open its switch (switch must be open when the LB-Relay has actuated) --- faulty current flows to the coil - flows and flows --- coil pulls an pulls and pulls and does the horrible sound.
It is difficult to get at the switches on relays mounted in the Control-Bank - maybe You have wingnuts or something - loosen and kind of folding up the whole Control-Bank (?). There is a short wire of any color - the short wire runs from "one side of the LB-Relay-Coil" to "switch mounted on the LB-Relay". The switch is closed when the relay is not plunged --- the other switchblade has soldered-on wire of color-yellow-mingled-with-black. The fault You have is: THROUGH this switch You have always connection --- maybe a drop of solder fallen at the solder-lugs - maybe a doghair crap of wire there --- maybe the stationary blade is bent and "follows the moved blade when the relay plunges, moved blade moves away --- BUT the stationary blade follows so the switch does (faulty) not open" ?
(((You can if You want check / countercheck: QB-Relay in the Control-Bank also have such an switch to open when relay plunges --- QB-Relay also have a short wire running from coil to switch)))
Greetings Rolf

I adjusted the switch on LB and the buzzing stopped! Thanks for your help on that one. I was able to play a game from start to finish for the 1st time. Of course I had to manually step the stepper in the head until it reset the pin and kicked a ball out. And of course the score reel is not reseting.

#87 6 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi crujones4life
first some theory --- Bally, Williams and Gottlieb schematics are drawn in an "special situation the pin is in". A game for ONE Player has been started, Reset has been done, Ball has been kicked over to the Shooter Alley - ready for the player to launch the ball. THEN the pin is toggled-off and the 110VAC main power cord is unplugged. Steppers stay as is - Interlock-Relays stay as is - Relays sitting in the Control-Bank (or in another -Bank) stay as is. A simple relay pulling before we toggled-off: This / these simple relays loose power (as we toggle-off) - relay(s) let go. And now the schematics (switches) is drawn with / in this situation.
An schematics is drawn "beautiful / abstract" --- the real wiring in the pin can be "other", NEVER, never there is in a pin - from an connecting wire QQ to XX: Somewhere along the wire a second wire forks-off connecting to YY. See the JPG, upper left corner - a fork-off upwards is drawn. Never there is in a pin such an fork-off. I call the drawing the "AA". Towards the left bottom in the JPG You see "BB", "CC, "DD" - examples how it is really wired in the pin --- ALWAYS a solder-lug is used - TWO wires end on this solder-lug.
In the JPG I marked as "EE" and as "FF" other places with "fork-off in the schematics" --- I then doubled the part - and just added "blue question marks" instead of make several drawings "maybe like that - maybe like this".
Theory of operation --- by now You help the pin through the start-up - You manually step the Player-Unit - step - step - step and at a time the unit reaches Home-Position is also position-zero. From now on the pin does the stepping - along my "marked green" wiring.
When You start a new game then stepping is done "partially along red wiring - partially along green wiring" --- the very last step(s) to then reach Home-Position (is also position-zero) is done "ONLY along my green wiring".
Trouble-Shooting --- YOUR pin does not step "early in the start-up" - it also does not reset Score-Drums - does not step "late in the start-up". From this I clue (maybe I clue right - maybe I clue wrong): The wiring in the upper-right corner of the JPG (and leftbound to "my blue FF") is the first place to investigate for the problem "NO STEPPING on start-up".
Maybe it is simple - the "Switch on S-Relay with wire-color-red-white / with wire brown-white" is no good - one of the wires has broken-off or the switch is out of adjustment - never closing contactpoints are oxidated (?) - closing mechanically but "not closing electrically" ?
Maybe when starting the "SB1- and SB-2 in the Control-Bank do NOT plunge and so the Switch "SB2 in the JPG" is faulty open - or its adjustment is no good - or a wire has broken-off (wire-color-brown-white or wire-color-slate-mingled-with-white) ? Maybe the real wiring (remember what I wrote to AA BB CC DD) is "wire-color-slate-mingled-with-white" runs from SB2-switch to Motor-1A switch and has broken-off at motor-1A switch (and there is a wire wire-color-slate-mingled-with-white running direct from Switch-"P" to motor-1A switch (and this wire happens to be good).
Tricky to check --- not easy to describe / write --- I end this post summing-up: I would have a good look in the pin - look at the stuff that is shown in the upper-right corner of the JPG. Greetings Rolf

I am going to read through this a few more times and try to dig in. Hopefully a dirty misadjusted switch or broken wire. Thank you so much for all of your help so far!

1 month later
#88 5 years ago

We are getting closer! So SB1 was not making good contact when plunged. Adjusted it and here is what we get now...

Press start stepper in head and motor run. Thousands place of score reel resets. Then startup process stops as ax relay spins round and round. I manually plunge the stepper in head just once and it completes startup sequence (except score does NOT finish resetting) and kicks ball 1 out ready to play.

So...
1. Thousands score reel resets. Others do not.
2. Startup stops at ax relay spinning round and round.

#89 5 years ago

Little more fiddling and now the tens and thousands reset on player 1 and all reels reset on player 2.

Feel like we are close.

#90 5 years ago

So what switch or step is supposed to happen to reset 10 thousands and hundreds reels?

#91 5 years ago

If I set 10 thousands and 100s to zero position game starts right up! So close! It's killing me...lol.

I just don't know what to look at next...motor, player stepper, or what.

#92 5 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

So what switch or step is supposed to happen to reset 10 thousands and hundreds reels?

Does the game otherwise reset? These are the circuits that reset the 100s and 10000s score reels. If the player unit stops in these positions then the problem is likely in these circuits. If the player unit doesn't stop in these positions then the problem is elsewhere.

Pinball (resized).pngPinball (resized).png

#93 5 years ago

The player unit stepper stops after tens and thousands are reset on player 1. Then AX relay just spins. One manual push of player unit stepper lets game finish resetting (except 100s and 10000s score reels for player 1) and kick out ball 1 ready to play.

So from the highlighted schematics the problem could be score motor switches 1A or 4A? I see a blue spark at what I believe is 1A. I tried cleaning with flex stone and adjusting gap to be closer...no change so far.

What/where are those other switches? (Runout switches and P switches)

And does this apply if player 2 resets just fine? Could the problem be in the reels themselves? Zero and Nine switches seem to be functioning correctly.

#94 5 years ago

AX will spin during reset through this circuit.
Runout switches are on the score reels and open at zero. The runout switches on the Player 1 100 and 10000 score reels probably aren't closing when they should.
P switches are on the Player unit, as in the other picture.

If you want to talk on the phone, PM me your contact information.

Pinball (resized).pngPinball (resized).png
Pinball (resized).pngPinball (resized).png

#95 5 years ago

It works! I adjusted the runout switches and it starts and plays all the way through!!! Whooooooooo! Thank you Howard and Rolf for all of your time and help!!!

Next task...scoring issue. This seems to be the only issue left. The 50/3000 relay doesn't seem to pull in long enough to score 50 points on rollover switches and for drop targets...it will sometimes score 10 points and sometimes not score at all. The 3000 point switches work fine (kick outs).

The motor always turns. Just no points/not enough points. When I look at 10 point relay in head it barely pulls in when activating the 50 point switches.

I tried adjusting the 50/3000 point relay it went from no points...adjusted it...to locking on and not releasing...adjusted it...to scoring maybe 10 points then releasing.

Where do I start?

#96 5 years ago
Quoted from crujones4life:

... The 50/300 relay doesn't seem to ...

There is no 50/300 relay. You probably mean either the '50 or 3000' relay or the '500 or 300' relay. Which?

#97 5 years ago

Sorry was tired last night...haha. It is the C relay. 50/3000. Edited previous post.

#98 5 years ago

If the '50 or 3000' (C) relay releases before 1/3 motor rotation, diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires.

Pinball (resized).pngPinball (resized).png

#99 5 years ago

One clip on C coil? And other on motor 2B switch? Is that right?

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