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(Topic ID: 257052)

Gottlieb Jet Spin - 1 Player Game Scores Points for Other Players


By ChipS

10 months ago



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  • 53 posts
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  • Latest reply 10 months ago by Patrickr
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There are 53 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 10 months ago

My Jet Spin has started acting strangely after being moved a couple of times. Points are being scored for the wrong player, usually players that aren't even playing. Some examples:

1-Player Game (5-ball setting)
Ball in Play 1 - Points score for Player 1
Ball in Play 2 - Points score for Player 2
Ball in Play 3 - Points score for Player 4
Ball in Play 4 - Game skips Ball 4 and goes right to Ball 5
Ball in Play 5 - Points score for Player 1

2-Player Game (5-ball setting)
Ball in Play 1 - Points score for Player 1
Ball in Play 1 - Points score for Player 2
Ball in Play 1 - Points score for Player 4
Ball in Play 2 - Points score for Player 2 only
Balls 3-5 - Points score normally for Players 1 & 2.

I switched the game to 3-ball setting and the odd scoring behavior continues:

1-Player Game (3-ball setting)
Ball in Play 1 - Points score for Player 1
Ball in Play 2 - Points score for Player 1
Ball in Play 2 (again) - Points score for Player 4
Ball in Play 4 - Points score for Player 1
Game continues giving ball after ball (all score for Player 1) although no ball in play is lit.

Occasionally, it will play a game normally, but more often than not, at least one ball will score points for the wrong player. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

#2 10 months ago
Quoted from ChipS:

Points are being scored for the wrong player

These 16 switches on the Player unit control which player receives scored points.

pasted_image (resized).png
#3 10 months ago

Does that happen with all scores, ie-10s, 100s, etc? I would check the M/Bs on the PU and also the Coin unit.

Capture (resized).PNGCapture1 (resized).PNG
#4 10 months ago

Yes, it does happen with all scores, 10s, 100s, etc. All points scored on that ball, including bonus, go to the wrong player.

I'm assuming by M/Bs, you mean the make/break switches?

Does the fact that it happened during a move (working flawlessly beforehand) suggest one over the other?

#5 10 months ago

Also if you haven't, clean the brass contacts and wiper fingers on the bakelite disc on the player unit in the head, and make sure the wires have not broken off the wiper fingers. Any 'iffy' connections on those contacts can cause the player unit to miss one or more steps between players or ball in play. Was happening just as described on my Fast Draw and turned out I'd neglected cleaning/oiling that disc, was dirty and dry as a bone.

#6 10 months ago

Thanks for the advice everyone - will check it out and report back.

#7 10 months ago

Do the Player Up lights light correctly or with the erroneous scoring?

#8 10 months ago

I don't think so. I actually noticed a typo in my original description of the problem:

1-Player Game (5-ball setting)
Ball in Play 1 - Points score for Player 1
Ball in Play 2 - Points score for Player 1 (not player 2 as listed in original post)
Ball in Play 3 - Points score for Player 4
Ball in Play 4 - Game skips Ball 4 and goes right to Ball 5
Ball in Play 5 - Points score for Player 1

In that scenario on ball 3, when the points go to Player 4, the score reels are dark - I think it's still player 1 who is lit up. I'll check it again and report back. If that's the case, is it another clue to the culprit?

#9 10 months ago

Did another test: When playing a 1-player game, and a ball scores for the 4th player, the Player 1 remains lit. So points are going to the 4th player, but the lights indicate that it is Player 1 playing the ball.

#11 10 months ago

Yes - cleaned but not lubed. Getting some Super Lube. Cleaning did not solve the problem.

#12 10 months ago

Have you tried stepping the PU and Coin unit by hand and/or checking them after each ball to see where they're lined up, etc.?

#13 10 months ago

No, but I will. Won't be able to check until tomorrow.

#14 10 months ago

Have you verified that the fingers of the Player Unit are lining up in the middle of the rivets. Manually step through all the way around and make sure that they land in the center. The player 4 rivet (same ball) would be just one ahead of the Player 1's next ball. If it's off just a little bit, it's possible that one finger is lighting player 1 but another finger is controlling Player 4.

I would also check for the same problem on the Ball Count Unit.

#15 10 months ago

Update:

PLAYER UNIT: Lots of work and testing done. First off, I observed the Player Unit while someone else played the game. After each "normal" ball, the solenoid fired four times, moving the fingers around the rivets. When the "error" occurs, the solenoid doesn't fire all four times - stops one short, and in turn, the score goes to Player #4 instead of Player #1.

So I cleaned all the rivets with a scotch brite pad and isopropyl alcohol, then lubricated it with a very thin layer of Super Lube. But that did not fix the problem.

Operating the solenoid by hand, it does make each step, seemingly without any difficulty (although if you tilt the Player Unit out, and it doesn't have gravity to help, the spring cannot pull the plunger all the way out of the solenoid). I examined the M/B switches in the back of the unit and tried to clean the contacts. But I did not completely disassemble the unit, which seems to be necessary to do this.

COIN UNIT: Examined the two switches on the front of the unit and they seemed to be gapped properly. Cleaned the rivets on the back side (very dirty) and lubricated them as well. When I put the bakelite disc back on, I did not line up the fingers with the rivets properly and when I started the game, all hell broke loose. Played one player and it just skipped from Player 1 to Player 2 to Player 3 and Player 4, not advancing the balls. I realized what I had done and reset the fingers. That seemed to clear up the problem: Played a 1-Player game and did not have any errant scoring. Was able to play about five 3-ball games before the score started jumping around to other players. And once it happened, it continued to happen.

Tried playing a four-player game and ran into another issue: on a 4 player game (and only on 4 player games), the ball will advance from 1 to 2 when it gets to player 4. Then it stays on ball 2 for player 1-3, then advances to ball 3 when it gets to 4. After player 1-3 play their third ball, the game ends.

Any ideas?

I will check to make sure the fingers of the Player Unit are lining up in the middle of the rivets.

#16 10 months ago

One other issue: Occasionally - usually when a ball doesn't score any points, or no bonus - the ball drains and it simply kicks the ball out again without advancing either the player or the ball number. So if it's a one-player game and it happens on ball two, the ball drains and is kicked out to the plunger without advancing to ball three. I'm assuming that is related to the other problems.

#17 10 months ago
Quoted from edednedy:

I would also check for the same problem on the Ball Count Unit.

I don't see a ball count unit. Is that only with single-player wedgeheads? Is the ball count part of the Player Unit in this game?

Jet Spin13 (resized).JPGJet Spin14a (resized).JPG
#18 10 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Have you tried stepping the PU and Coin unit by hand and/or checking them after each ball to see where they're lined up, etc.?

I did try this with the Player Unit. I steps fine by hand. And as I mentioned, you can see/hear it fail (solenoid doesn't fire all four times) when it doesn't advance back to Player 1. I will check again and notice the position of the finger when it fails.

Coin Unit seems to work fine, although I have not seen that move at all after the game starts. Is it supposed to move after each ball?

#19 10 months ago

The coin unit steps up only after a game is started and additional player(s) are added with the credit button, resets at next game start. Also the ball count not advancing when a player scores no points is totally normal. It won't advance if the First Ball relay has not been triggered by scoring points.

#20 10 months ago

My bad ChipS. I meant the coin unit not the ball unit.

#21 10 months ago

Correction on First Ball relay - only applies to the first ball, player one, so should not be staying on same ball after that.

#22 10 months ago
Quoted from edednedy:

My bad ChipS. I meant the coin unit not the ball unit.

Gotcha. Yes, checked both the Player Unit and Coin Unit and on both the fingers are lined up with the middle of the rivets. The rivets on both have been cleaned and lightly lubed. And the issue still persists...

#23 10 months ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Correction on First Ball relay - only applies to the first ball, player one, so should not be staying on same ball after that.

I'll have to check again and see - it may have only been the first player, first ball. Although I want to say it happened again later in the game. Have to recheck.

#24 10 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

These 16 switches on the Player unit control which player receives scored points.

HowardR - these are the series of switches in the back of the Player Unit, correct? Does that suggest the problem is there? A make-break switch is not doing what it is supposed to?

By observing the solenoid on the Player Unit when it fails to advance all the way back to Player 1 - seems to suggest that is the problem. Most of the time the errant points go to Player #4 - so the Player Unit only advances three times instead of four (because the solenoid only fires 3 times). What causes the Player Unit solenoid to fire four times to get back to Player 1?

#25 10 months ago

Wait a sec.... "on a 4 player game (and only on 4 player games), the ball will advance from 1 to 2 when it gets to player 4. Then it stays on ball 2 for player 1-3, then advances to ball 3 when it gets to 4." Okay are you sure the player disc is aligned correctly because that sounds like it is one position off. The player position is determined by the inner cog and switches but the ball in play lights are on the attached disc and they have to be in sync.

#26 10 months ago

I just checked the photos of the bakelite disc on the player unit and I believe you are correct - it seems to be one position off based on how the screws are lining up. Let me fix that and check it again. Thanks!

#27 10 months ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Wait a sec.... "on a 4 player game (and only on 4 player games), the ball will advance from 1 to 2 when it gets to player 4. Then it stays on ball 2 for player 1-3, then advances to ball 3 when it gets to 4." Okay are you sure the player disc is aligned correctly because that sounds like it is one position off. The player position is determined by the inner cog and switches but the ball in play lights are on the attached disc and they have to be in sync.

You were absolutely correct. And now that it has been adjusted, the issue with the four-player game is fixed.

But the original issue - score jumping around when playing 1-player games - has not been corrected.

#28 10 months ago
Quoted from ChipS:

But the original issue - score jumping around when playing 1-player games - has not been corrected.

I think you're going to need to open up the PU and look for shorts or other oddities.

#29 10 months ago

How about the Add Player Unit relay? All the score motor pulses for the Player Unit have to go thru various switches in that relay depending on how many players active. Clean and adj. as necessary.

#30 10 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

I think you're going to need to open up the PU and look for shorts or other oddities.

Gotcha.

Any chance it could be the AX or BX relays? I don't understand enough about what they do - just throwing it out there.

#31 10 months ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

How about the Add Player Unit relay? All the score motor pulses for the Player Unit have to go thru various switches in that relay depending on how many players active. Clean and adj. as necessary.

I will check that as well - thanks!

#32 10 months ago
Quoted from ChipS:

Any chance it could be the AX or BX relays? I don't understand enough about what they do - just throwing it out there.

No

#34 10 months ago

On the Player Unit relay scenario I'm picturing maybe one of its switches being 'iffy', then say one of the three 'extra' pulses needed to advance to next ball on a 1 player game or 2 player game might be the one missing. But a 4 player game works okay because it's only doing one pulse per ball serve and that particular switch is fine ... something like that. Sort of the same idea as the player unit contacts being iffy.
yytttytu (resized).png…………… NO wait, P2/3/4G, I think those are in the add player unit itself(?) Same applies though as to a missing pulse.

#35 10 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Are the 16 switches in my earlier post working correctly when this happens?

HowardR - my apologies, I don't have your skill at reading the schematic and knowing where to find it in the game. Are these the 16 switches you've identified in your post? The back side of the Player Unit?

It's hard for me to tell if they are working properly because I don't know how they are supposed to work. When the points that are supposed to go to player 1 go instead to player 4, the solenoid in the PU only fires three times instead of the four times it needs to fire to get back to player 1. But I can't see exactly what is happening with the switches.

I think I'm going to have to take the PU apart to get at those switches and see if they are positioned properly.

I swapped out the coil sleeve on that solenoid and played five "normal" 1-player, 3 ball games before the score went to Player #4. the game played perfectly for about five games before the score went to Player 4. The next game was similar - with one ball's score going to Player #4. Then I had three more normal games. Then another game were the first ball stayed on ball 1 for the second ball, then balls 2 then 3 played normally. So sometimes it works fine, other times it doesn't.

PlayerUnit01a (resized).jpg
#36 10 months ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

On the Player Unit relay scenario I'm picturing maybe one of its switches being 'iffy', then say one of the three 'extra' pulses needed to advance to next ball on a 1 player game or 2 player game might be the one missing. But a 4 player game works okay because it's only doing one pulse per ball serve and that particular switch is fine ... something like that. Sort of the same idea as the player unit contacts being iffy.

Let me recheck the 4-player games. If that plays fine every time, then we'll know the issue is one of those switches, right?

#37 10 months ago
Quoted from ChipS:

When the points that are supposed to go to player 1 go instead to player 4, the solenoid in the PU only fires three times instead of the four times it needs to fire to get back to player 1

In that case, it's looking like the switches in my first post are working OK and the problem is getting the Player Unit solenoid to fire 4 times.

The problem is probably in the area frenchmarky circled in his post or in the coin unit to the right of that.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-jet-spin-1-player-game-scores-points-for-other-players#post-5350316

#38 10 months ago

On my similar 4-player Gottlieb I can duplicate it playing a one-player game that errantly stops on player 4 instead of one more step to next ball of player 1 - if I block the very top switch on the farthest stack to the right in your photo (last stack to rear of unit) so might try clean/adj. of that one. Correction, the last TALL stack.

Also where you said there was one game where the "first ball stayed on ball 1 for the second ball", I'm guessing that was just a legitimate First Ball relay thing with no scoring since otherwise you don't seem to have a problem with the pl unit not even firing once on a one player game.

#39 10 months ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

On my similar 4-player Gottlieb I can duplicate it playing a one-player game that errantly stops on player 4 instead of one more step to next ball of player 1 - if I block the very top switch on the farthest stack to the right in your photo (last stack to rear of unit) so might try clean/adj. of that one. Correction, the last TALL stack.

Thanks - let me check that out and I'll report back!

#40 10 months ago

If you'd like to try a phone call, send me your cellphone number in a private message and I'll make a first reply with a text message.

#41 10 months ago

Here is the latest: I played a series of multi-player, three-ball games to see if the score jumped from player to player. Played six games each of two-player, then three-player, then four-player games. Here are the results:

2-player game #3: Player 1 Ball 2 did not advance (in other words, got one free extra ball, without winning an extra ball)
3-player game #6: player 1 ball 2 did not advance
4-player game #1: player 1 ball 1 did not advance
4-player game #6: player 2 ball 3 did not advance

So the score never jumped to a different player. (It had before.) But there seems to be an occasional issue with the ball not advancing.

But when playing single player games, the score continues to jump around. Most of the time it happens on the second ball. And the score usually jumps to Player #4, although it does occasionally jump to Player #3.

#42 10 months ago

Since you're still posting here, did you check the switches I suggested inmy post 37?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-jet-spin-1-player-game-scores-points-for-other-players#post-5350580

#43 10 months ago

Checked the points on Coin Unit where WH-GR, WH-BR and WH-OR connect and they seem okay.

Where are the P2G, P3G and P4G switches located?

#44 10 months ago
Quoted from ChipS:

Here is the latest: I played a series of multi-player, three-ball games to see if the score jumped from player to player. Played six games each of two-player, then three-player, then four-player games. Here are the results:
2-player game #3: Player 1 Ball 2 did not advance (in other words, got one free extra ball, without winning an extra ball)
3-player game #6: player 1 ball 2 did not advance
4-player game #1: player 1 ball 1 did not advance
4-player game #6: player 2 ball 3 did not advance
So the score never jumped to a different player. (It had before.) But there seems to be an occasional issue with the ball not advancing.
But when playing single player games, the score continues to jump around. Most of the time it happens on the second ball. And the score usually jumps to Player #4, although it does occasionally jump to Player #3.

I'd suggest looking at the score motor switches involved in these scenarios. Ended up being the culprit on my Old Chicago with similar issues. I'm no expert, but the experts here helped me solve it.

#45 10 months ago
Quoted from ChipS:

Where are the P2G, P3G and P4G switches located?

From the last page of a Gottlieb manual (this one from Top Score)

pasted_image (resized).png
#46 10 months ago

Thanks! I'm not seeing P2G, P3G, P4G from the schematic, detailed in post #34. I'm assuming they are switches above P2E, P3E, P4E?

#47 10 months ago
Quoted from ChipS:

Thanks! I'm not seeing P2G, P3G, P4G from the schematic, detailed in post #34. I'm assuming they are switches above P2E, P3E, P4E?

Yes

#48 10 months ago

On my Fast Draw those switches that enable the player unit advances at player 1 thru 3 positions are the top switches on the three tall switch stacks starting from the rear. You can see the stacks activating at player score positions 1 thru 4. I think the single advance needed when playing a 4 player game is enabled by a separate score motor switch. Not sure you would need to take the unit apart but you can remove the two screws and a cotter pin there on it which which lets you drop the unit open and gives you a lot better view and access to the switches.

#49 10 months ago

After I asked him to pay attention to the pattern of Player Unit solenoid misfires, the actual Jet Spin owner ( kevlar51 ) emailed me this description:

I played through 12 single player games and watched/listened to the Player Unit solenoid. Each time that a score went to the wrong reel, the solenoid would fire-fire-stutter/fire-fire. Meaning the third firing was abnormal, but there would still be what I'd consider to be a normal fire at the end.

That narrows down the problem to this leg of the logic. So the next step is to attach an Alligator Clip Jumper across the White-Blue to White-Brown on the Coin unit disk and see if that eliminates the Player Unit solenoid misfires.

pasted_image (resized).png
#50 10 months ago

Thanks Howard, I clipped jumpers from Wh-Bl to Wh-Br on the coin unit as instructed. I played five single player games; the first played normal. The other four each had the second ball jump to the player 4 reel, then back to player 1 for ball 3.

The misfiring was also different: closer to “fire-fire-fire-stutter-fire”—the third fire was clearer than before, with the stutter happening at the fourth firing and then a clear fire at the end (total of 5, including the stutter).

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