(Topic ID: 217784)

Gottlieb Hot Shot Transformer from 230v to 115v

By frisbez

5 years ago


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  • Latest reply 5 years ago by pinhead52
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#1 5 years ago

Hi all, I just picked up a Gottlieb Hot Shot that was apparently a re-import from Germany. Previous owner had not tried to turn it on or do anything with it. Anyway, I'm trying to figure out what I need to do to get it working in the US and I am in over my head.

The first thing I ran into is a mystery box:

The line cord enters this box. Black wire then goes to main 5 amp slow blow fuse. Blue wire goes to COM on the transformer. Yellow is grounded on a transformer leg.

mystery (resized).jpgmystery (resized).jpg

There is also a free floating wire attached to this leg of the transformer, as well as 1 other wire that goes to the main wire harness.

wire (resized).jpgwire (resized).jpg

Here's a picture of the full transformer (there are no wires on the other side).

transformer (resized).jpgtransformer (resized).jpg

I notice that the 230v is unused and that 2 115v are used instead. How will I convert this to a single 115v for the US?

I picked up a B-3235 Gottlieb transformer.

UST (resized).jpgUST (resized).jpg

But I have not found any info on how to wire it up. I noticed the schematic calls for a 6831...will I need to get that instead? It looks like the difference might be a second 6v line? Relevant portion of the schematic schematic (resized).jpgschematic (resized).jpg

Thanks for the help! This is my second EM and the first that will need more work than replacing a relay.

#2 5 years ago

It is possible that one of the two 115v transformers is the original. I can see the model no on one; is the no on the other the spec transformer? You also need to establish whether the score motor is for 50hz or 60hz although because the machine included 2x115v that is not standard (I believe) & perhaps the machine was originally imported from the US as a US machine in which case hz will not be an issue.

#3 5 years ago

Hi frisbez +
I live in Switzerland - south of Germany. In the USA You have 110VAC on 60 Hertz --- in Europe we have 220VAC on 50 Hertz --- wayner came up with the problem --- in the pin is an Score-Motor for 25VAC-50 Hertz ? or for 25VAC-60 Hertz ? At the time the pin was imported into Germany - most likely with an motor 25VAC-50-Hertz --- You have the pin reemported to the USA - the motor will run - no problem for the motor - but it will run about 20% faster --- and the resetting of the Score-Drums may have an problem.

I feel uneasy - writing about 110VAC in the USA - not really knowing the 110VAC. So I would like US-pinsiders writing about Your B3235 (do You have solder-lugs for 6VAC on the transformer ?) --- taking the B3235 and wire according to Your schematics - as Your schematics is the "domestic-USA-schematics" ?

Switzerland is not Germany - the pins imported into Germany at times (?) MUST have added an "Radio Interference Filter" --- not in Switzerland. Your first picture shows (99% sure) such an Radio Interference Filter --- see the first JPG: The "green colored" wiring is "Target Alpha - GERMAN schematics --- see near the 220VAC Line-Cord: Radio Interference Filter - You must get rid off.
On the bottom of the first JPG is "Target Alpha for Switzerland" --- see in the lower left corner the strange looking drawing of an tranformer --- such an transformer can be used "plugged for 110VAC" - can be used "plugged for 220VAC".

See the second JPG - the transformer in MY ORBIT - the adjusting for 110VAC or for 220VAC can be done by unplugging - moving - plugging-in (the bakelite stuff "V1, V2 etc.)" - big question: DOES Your pin has such an Adj-Plug near the transformer ? Greetings Rolf

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#4 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi frisbez +
I live in Switzerland - south of Germany. In the USA You have 110VAC on 60 Hertz --- in Europe we have 220VAC on 50 Hertz --- wayner came up with the problem --- in the pin is an Score-Motor for 25VAC-50 Hertz ? or for 25VAC-60 Hertz ? At the time the pin was imported into Germany - most likely with an motor 25VAC-50-Hertz --- You have the pin reemported to the USA - the motor will run - no problem for the motor - but it will run about 20% faster --- and the resetting of the Score-Drums may have an problem.

Hi Rolf! I am not sure how to tell whether my score motor is 50 hz or 60 hz. Is there a place on the motor that will say? I cannot see a part number listed.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

I feel uneasy - writing about 110VAC in the USA - not really knowing the 110VAC. So I would like US-pinsiders writing about Your B3235 (do You have solder-lugs for 6VAC on the transformer ?) --- taking the B3235 and wire according to Your schematics - as Your schematics is the "domestic-USA-schematics" ?

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

On the bottom of the first JPG is "Target Alpha for Switzerland" --- see in the lower left corner the strange looking drawing of an tranformer --- such an transformer can be used "plugged for 110VAC" - can be used "plugged for 220VAC".

Yes there is a 6VAC solder lug on the US transformer but only one. It appears from the schematic that there should be 2 6VAC lines. One white and one white/black. So perhaps the transformer I purchased won't be able to power all of my lamps. The schematic calls for a B-6183 and I purchased a B-3235.

Here is what I think I need to do...but as you can see I have a few I am not sure of:

transformercombined (resized).jpgtransformercombined (resized).jpg

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Switzerland is not Germany - the pins imported into Germany at times (?) MUST have added an "Radio Interference Filter" --- not in Switzerland. Your first picture shows (99% sure) such an Radio Interference Filter --- see the first JPG: The "green colored" wiring is "Target Alpha - GERMAN schematics --- see near the 220VAC Line-Cord: Radio Interference Filter - You must get rid off.

See the second JPG - the transformer in MY ORBIT - the adjusting for 110VAC or for 220VAC can be done by unplugging - moving - plugging-in (the bakelite stuff "V1, V2 etc.)" - big question: DOES Your pin has such an Adj-Plug near the transformer ? Greetings Rolf

Super helpful info on the radio interference filter. Unfortunately my game does not have a voltage select jones plug. That would have made my life a lot easier.

I also figured out the weirdness with the 3 wire from the line cord. It looks like a previous owner had started to set up a ground but hadn't wired them up to anything. One wire goes all the way through the harness to the coin door. The schematic does not have a ground wire listed. I will purchase some ground braid to finish this project.

Thanks for your help!

#5 5 years ago

Hi frisbez +
see the JPG --- B7760 is the 60 Hertz motor - B11550 is the 50 Hertz motor. In Switzerland it is evening - almost 21:00 (hour, time) - getting dark - not good for looking at the motors in my basement.
Also in the JPG: Different transformers --- well, one transformer You have is B-3235 --- maybe want to start a new topic +/- "How to grab 6VAC on Gottlieb B-3235 transformer ?" - and You and american pinsiders talk about the B-3235 transformer (?),

The other transformer You have - on the JPG in post-1 I read B-79??????? - I also read 115VAC -230VAC - 115VAC --- maybe it is an B-7986 - good for 110VAC AND 220VAC ? So tomorrow I can dig into my "Orbit" (as my picture is from my Orbit) - looking for a number.

Grumble - frustrating - I do not have "all my posts written in all the different topics" in my memory --- how about these: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/what-type-of-inverter-will-power-an-em-pinball-machine#post-4390156 - to: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gtb-c37-transformer-diagram-can-someone-explain#post-4210443

An Adj-Plug to switch to 110VAC - to switch to 220VAC sure is nice - but doing a soldering job for permanent 110VAC should be possible to be done.

I repeat: I feel very uncomfortable when it comes to transformers and 110VAC and/or 220VAC - do You want to think first about "using the B-3235 transformer and wire it like shown in Your schematics" ? Greetings Rolf

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#6 5 years ago

check the back side of the transfoer, sometines the 6v return is on the far side

#7 5 years ago

The original transformer is a 7986 so I suppose I don't need the new one. Thank you for your help so far. Does anyone have a diagram to help me make sure it is wired for 115?

The motor is unfortunately the 11550 50 Hz. I suppose I will have to figure out what to do about that once I have the transformer figured out.

To revisit my original picture of the transformer:

transformer (resized).jpgtransformer (resized).jpg

Does this look like it could be the correct wiring for US? To me it seems like there should not be 2 115V lines but I am definitely not knowledgeable about this. I realize that the picture doesn't show a white wire connected to a 0 lug behind the black/white ones on the right side.

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from frisbez:

Does this look like it could be the correct wiring for US? To me it seems like there should not be 2 115V lines but I am definitely not knowledgeable about this. I realize that the picture doesn't show a white wire connected to a 0 lug behind the black/white ones on the right side.

The reason for the 2 115v connections is because for 230v the 2 primary windings are wired in series while for 115v the same 2 primary windings are wired in parallel. rolf_martin_062 has a picture in his post #3 above. Roughly repeated here:

Pinball (resized).pngPinball (resized).png

#9 5 years ago

Hi frisbez +
the following I wrote not knowing HowardR 's post-8.

Hi frisbez
I must wait for tomorrow - daylight - for to look into my Gottlieb pins --- the first JPG is from (I do not remember) - showing Bally, Gottlieb, Williams solutions. The second JPG shows on Gottlieb HOW the Adj-Plug works --- on the primary side there are TWO identical wires wound - identical gauge - identical length / windings. Plugged for 220VAC: ALL electrons must run through the first - then through the second windings. When set for 110VAC: Each electron can decide "Do I want to take left side - or do I want to take right side --- about half of the electrons take left and the other half take right - so it is like "doble-thickness - but only half of length". The laws of electricity work --- and "Voltage divider - when set to use 220VAC: At "L" we europeans can grab 110VAC needed for Bank-Reset-Coils. I really dislike to work on 110VAC- / 220VAC-stuff (danger !). Greetings Rolf

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#10 5 years ago

Hi frisbez
I fear working with 220VAC / 110 VAC - also 50VAC (Bally pins) - also 25VAC - also 6VAC. I do not want to be the one who talked You into "doing something" - and then accident / injury / death.
(You live in a big town) - take the problem to an local electricien - tell him about "some transformers have TWO identical / separated wirings on the primary side" - hooked "in series - one behind the other" is for using 220VAC on the primary side --- hooked "parallel" is for using 110VAC on the primary side. Pins in Europe have an nice Adj-Jack to change voltage.
YOUR pin does NOT have such an Adj-Plug - YOUR pin / transformer has NOT the "1 2 3 4" text on the wrapping paper (as my pins have) - YOUR transformer has "COM 115 230 115" - ask the electricien about "same meaning ?". He will probably do the (my brown text) using a meter checking for continuity - and measuring OHMs. Maybe (?) he will make permanent connection "1 to 2" and "3 to 4" (depending on the results of his measuring) - wiring 110VAC-Line-Cord-HOT through fuse to main power-switch to "connected 3 and 4 (maybe) ". He maybe connects "Line-cord-Return-Side to 'connected 1 and 2' ". He maybe takes out the fuses in Your pin - the fuses for "stuff operated on 110VAC" - to make first tests easyer- then he tries the transformer.

Please accept - I do not give advices to You to do it Yourself --- I strongly advice "take the problem to an local electricien and ask him".

The problem of "Score-Motor with an 50 Hertz real motor runs in the USA about 20% faster than an american (60 Hertz) motor": We can check after You have an transformer in Your pin and can toggle-on the pin and You get 25VAC (((sidenote / question: Do You have an solder-lug on top / up-behind the transformer --- is it for 6VAC ?))). Greetings Rolf

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#11 5 years ago

Hi Rolf, I asked a local group about wiring this, and they were able to help me out. My picture does not show that there is another lug (marked 0) on the bottom. This lug is #3 in your diagram. I think if I had taken a better picture this all would have been easier. Thank you for your help regardless! You have helped me gain a much better understanding of transformers.

I now have power to the game, but it does not want to score points. I will continue troubleshooting and start a new thread if I need more help.

Thanks again.

#12 5 years ago

If it was me, I would disconnect the 6v and 25v output take my best shot at the input and measure the voltage on the output. Honestly, that would be done in about 15 minutes, even if you guessed wrong and had to try again.

Regarding the motor, just buy a new one and pop in in there . ebay.com link: GOTTLIEB 1972 OUTER SPACE PINBALL MACHINE 3 LOWER PANEL SCORE WHEEL MOTOR

#13 5 years ago

If you notice, your transformer has 3 lugs on the left and only two on the right. You have an "isolation" version. This electrically isolates the 120V bank/Target reset coils from the main line voltage. This makes it much safer to work on with live power and was probably a requirement of local jurisdiction.

That style transformer would be switched to 230/240 by simply moving one wire from the 115 to the 230 lug and leave the two on the right where they are.

#14 5 years ago
Quoted from newmantjn:

If it was me, I would disconnect the 6v and 25v output take my best shot at the input and measure the voltage on the output. Honestly, that would be done in about 15 minutes, even if you guessed wrong and had to try again.
Regarding the motor, just buy a new one and pop in in there . ebay.com link » Gottlieb 1972 Outer Space Pinball Machine 3 Lower Panel Score Wheel Motor

Unfortunately that's the same 50 hz motor that I've got.

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from frisbez:

Unfortunately that's the same 50 hz motor that I've got.

Sorry. Here's a 60 hz one.

ebay.com link: Gottlieb 1975 300 Pinball Machine Score motor B 7760 with assembly 60 HZ

#16 5 years ago

So I am now able to start a game. Scoring features are working but the score reels are having a hard time going from the 9s-0s positions.

For Player 1 my 10,000s reel is working well

My 1000s works great until the 9-0 transition.

Same for the 100s reel.

They both struggle to reset (the 100s has thus far required me to manually move it from 9-0).

I have already removed the reels and cleaned them up with alcohol. As far as I can tell the mechanisms are working well. When I manually activate them they work fine all the way through from 1-0.

I had started trying to de-tension the switches but I am wondering if part of the problem could be the motor and perhaps I should wait until I get a new 60 hz one. Anyone want to chime in on the effect of an out-of-phase motor on score reel performance?

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from frisbez:

So I am now able to start a game. Scoring features are working but the score reels are having a hard time going from the 9s-0s positions.
For Player 1 my 10,000s reel is working well
My 1000s works great until the 9-0 transition.
Same for the 100s reel.
They both struggle to reset (the 100s has thus far required me to manually move it from 9-0).
I have already removed the reels and cleaned them up with alcohol. As far as I can tell the mechanisms are working well. When I manually activate them they work fine all the way through from 1-0.
I had started trying to de-tension the switches but I am wondering if part of the problem could be the motor and perhaps I should wait until I get a new 60 hz one. Anyone want to chime in on the effect of an out-of-phase motor on score reel performance?

Ive got a 50Hz motor in my Far Out, no issue! Bonus scoring is a littler faster (a plus)

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from pinhead52:

Ive got a 50Hz motor in my Far Out, no issue! Bonus scoring is a littler faster (a plus)

That has been my experience with a 50hz motor also.

#19 5 years ago

Sounds like I need to do some more work on lowering the switch tension then. Painful.

#20 5 years ago

I would be concerned your issue lies with a contact in the power chain to those score reel coils.

I’m having an issue with my C37 that has been stired for aome time now and the ball can’t make it to the shooter lane. It tries repeatedly. And there is no tension issue with it. I expect I have a loose contact or misadjusted switch.

#21 5 years ago

Hi frisbez +
on behalf of other stuff I happened to look at the schematics of "Dancing Lady" --- german version - see the JPG. Hmm, in the JPG in post-5 this transformer is not listed --- does somebody have an old Gottlieb "parts manual" ?

frisbez - a 50-Hertz-motor running on 60-Hertz (thats what You have by now) --- the main problem I see is in "does the 'stepping forward to position-zero (we call it resetting)' work when You start a new game ?" The engineers did some work in the design --- the size of the teeth on the motor and the speed in turning makes the definition on: How long in time is the switch closed --- then how long in time is the switch open - then closed - then open etc. . IF (if, if) the switch on the motor opens too early - the coil on the Score-Drum has not enough time to pull-in the plunger on the drum completely: The resetting does not work. Greetings Rolf

0Dancing-Lady-Work-01 (resized).jpg0Dancing-Lady-Work-01 (resized).jpg

#22 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi frisbez +
frisbez - a 50-Hertz-motor running on 60-Hertz (thats what You have by now) --- the main problem I see is in "does the 'stepping forward to position-zero (we call it resetting)' work when You start a new game ?" The engineers did some work in the design --- the size of the teeth on the motor and the speed in turning makes the definition on: How long in time is the switch closed --- then how long in time is the switch open - then closed - then open etc. . IF (if, if) the switch on the motor opens too early - the coil on the Score-Drum has not enough time to pull-in the plunger on the drum completely: The resetting does not work. Greetings Rolf

This is what I am concerned about with my current issues with the 1000s and 100s score reels. But the 10,000s reel resets and scores correctly. To me that indicates that it should be possible to have the game work with a 50 hz motor as others have said above, the tolerances for the score reels might just be tighter.

For now I am going to chase down a few other bugs (locked on 10 pt relay, bonus not scoring, and ball and player counts not always advancing correctly) and come back to the score reels later.

This game has been an interesting experience as a first EM major project, but I am making progress and have already learned a lot thanks to the advice I have gotten here.

#24 5 years ago

Tons of German games were reimported to America in the late 70's and early 80's and worked and sold fine. As was mentioned, they just run faster.

If your reels are sticking at 9/0 and they are still stuck half way when you turn power off, your problem is mechanical, not electrical or a timing issue.

#25 5 years ago

The hard ones to get working 100% are games with scanning bonus like Jack in the Box and Hot Shot. Mostly due to the work parts on the stepper unit.

#26 5 years ago

Well I have the 1000s reel working correctly now. But the 100s reel refuses to cooperate. Does anyone have any tips for adjusting it? Thus far I have:

Cleaned coil plunger
Cleaned underside
Removed dried lubricant from gear
Switched spring for a stiffer one
Switched reels with P4 reel

The hangup seems to actually be going from 8-9 rather than 9-0. I know the switches go from all but middle runout open to all closed but it doesn’t make sense to me that it would be harder to go from 8-9 than 9-0.

#27 5 years ago

I removed a plastic white spacer from above the reel below the clip/washer and the 100s reel is now working perfectly. Wish I hadn't wasted so much time messing with the switch ratchet trying to de-tension it. You live and you learn.

#28 5 years ago

That spacer represents the non existent Wiper pcb.

While others Don't agree with my solution, I take the bend out of the wave washer when a cleaned and lubed reel won't advance properly.

You basically did the same thing by eliminating the spacer.

#29 5 years ago

Hi frisbez
Playmatic had nice transformers - see the JPG. Greetings

0Speak-Easy-Work-06 (resized).jpg0Speak-Easy-Work-06 (resized).jpg
#30 5 years ago

Hi frisbez +
I stumbled over "drawing of transformer situation 110VAC versus 220VAC" --- Gottlieb Canada Dry. Interesting: In the schematics of my Far Out is a three prong plug --- in Canada Dry there is a two prong plug. Hmm, the two prong plug we better plug-in so Line-Cord-POWER-HOT comes to Fuse - then Toggle-Switch.

Canada Dry is the FIRST time I see in a Gottlieb / Bally / Williams drawn "situation 110VAC versus 220VAC". Greetings Rolf

0Canada-Dry-Work-01.jpg0Canada-Dry-Work-01.jpg

#31 5 years ago

Hi
I had another look at the Canada Dry schematics --- see the JPG here. Greetings Rolf

0Canada-Dry-Work-02.jpg0Canada-Dry-Work-02.jpg
#32 5 years ago

Here's another ref, 1965 Kings & Queens with a dual mode transformer, solder leads rather than Jones plugs

transformer (resized).jpgtransformer (resized).jpg
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