Gottlieb Hot Shot Reset Problem Z1 not activated

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-hot-shot-missing-reset-bank-partsphotosparts-needed

I'm working on a Gottlieb Hot Shot that I've never had in working order. The most serious issue with the game was a missing switch stack on the SB2 relay. The missing stack only had two switches and I was able to replace these from a spare reset bank. Here is the thread with the photos of my game as it was give to me.

Now that this is fixed, I'm starting to go through the game and I'm not able to get it to reset. After I hit start, the score motor spins, SB1/SB2 on the reset bank close (these relays are linked), The Z2 relay locks and the 3rd and 4th player score reels reset, but Z1 is not activated and the 1st and 2nd score reels do not reset and the player unit does not reset.

I have a schematic, but just can't figure out why Z1 is not activating. Any help would be appreciated.

#2 5 years ago

LSW

Runbikeskilee

Pinside member

So, the first 4 steps in the start-up sequence (listed in the user's manual) seem to be completing, right?

The circuit to energize Z1 (horizontally from area 16.5 on the schematic) is pretty simple, with only 2 switches in line (not counting the 8 score reel reset switches in parallel). If Z2 is activating, that would indicate that the common switch on SB1 is functioning as it should. I assume you have found the NC switch located on the very topmost position of the Z2 relay that will not allow Z1 to energize until Z2 has dropped out. That switch gave me a lot of trouble with my HS reset; it looked like it should be conducting, but wasn't.

So, the failure of Z1 to activate could only be due to one (or more) of the following:

1) NC switch at top position of Z2 not conducting (clean and tension the switch, or jumper the terminals just to verify)
2) Z2 relay not dropping out properly (thus never allowing Z2 switch to close); this could be due to mis-tensioned switches or possibly residual magnetism in the metal plate. Could also be due to one of the Player 3 & 4 reset switches not being fully open)
3) bad coil on Z1 relay (try measuring the resistance with a multi-meter, or maybe jumpering 24V (or lower) power to the terminals of the Z1 relay coil to see if it moved the plastic yoke).
4) a break in the wiring between the NC switch on Z2 and one terminal of the Z1 relay coil.

See if you can eliminate any of those suspects.

Lee

#3 5 years ago

???

bonzo71

Pinside member

Lee,

Thank you for the detailed reply. This gives me a few things to check. I'll report back soon.

#4 5 years ago

???

bonzo71

Pinside member

I believe my issues are related to the score reel switches being out of adjustment. I do not understand it, but nearly every reel needed some adjustment. 2 still need more, but they are close. At one point the reels set and the player unit kicked in. As a guy who is used to Williams reels, these are much more difficult to adjust. I'll work on this a bit more tonight.

#5 5 years ago

LSW

Runbikeskilee

Pinside member

LOL. Sounds like you've met the fabled Gottlieb Decagon unit.

Laughing with you, not at you. Those things can be a real PITA.

-1

#6 5 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,257

OP
Quoted from bonzo71:
After I hit start, the score motor spins, SB1/SB2 on the reset bank close (these relays are linked), The Z2 relay locks and the 3rd and 4th player score reels reset, but Z1 is not activated and the 1st and 2nd score reels do not reset and the player unit does not reset.

OP
Quoted from bonzo71:
I believe my issues are related to the score reel switches being out of adjustment

Instead of adjusting things that may not need adjustment, and causing more problems than you started with, you can diagnose the exact switch(es) with Alligator clip jumper wires.

Pinball (resized).png

#7 5 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Springfield, MA

7y 63,550 3,312 6

Are the rivets and contacts on the Player unit nice and clean? Z2 was not working on my Target Alpha for that reason and a good sanding with 600# paper fixed it.

#8 5 years ago

LSW

Runbikeskilee

Pinside member

Whoa. On Hot Shot, the Player Unit is not a part of the circuit that is designed to send power to the Z1 relay coil. Let's not mess with the player unit (yet).

If the machine has a successful reset of all the Player 3 & 4 score reels, then the OP needs to look in the back box and determine if the Z2 relay is then dropping out. Only then will the NC switch on the topmost part of Z2 close and allow power to reach the Z1 relay coil. If Z2 is not dropping out (disengaging), then the 8 score reel reset switches on Player 3 & 4 need to be examined, or, the Z2 relay itself may have a mechanical issue that prevents it from returning to rest position.

If Z2 is indeed dropping out, then look to the NC switch on top of Z2. Have Howard explain how to jumper it if necessary.

#9 5 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Springfield, MA

7y 63,550 3,312 6

Quoted from Runbikeskilee:
Whoa. On Hot Shot, the Player Unit is not a part of the circuit that is designed to send power to the Z1 relay coil. Let's not mess with the player unit (yet).

Thanks for pointing that out.

#10 5 years ago

???

bonzo71

Pinside member

Getting closer.. the reels need more adjustment. There is one reel with so little movement between the zero position and the 1-8 position that it can not be properly adjusted. How can I get a bit more lift between the zero and 1-8 positions? Also, the 100 point relay is locking...even with the playfield disconnected. Could this have something to do with the player unit switches?

#11 5 years ago

???

frisbez

Pinside member

Kent, WA

8y 53,300 513 17

If the 100 pt relay is locking without the playfield check the player unit switches. It should be the E switches, second or third up from the bottom of each stack. They should all be open I believe but I don't have the schematic in front of me. You can swing the player unit out to get a better look at the switches without dissassembling it. There are 2 flathead screws on the top right and a clip on each side of the bottom.

#12 5 years ago

???

frisbez

Pinside member

Kent, WA

8y 53,300 513 17

For the reset issue, are you able to start a game if you manually reset the p1 and p2 reels?

It sounds like your reel is getting stuck going from 0-1 is that correct? In that position the ratchet is moving toward the middle to close the middle runout switch. I would try to adjust that middle switch to push against the ratchet slightly less (assuming you have already cleaned the mechanism/gear and you can also try removing a white plastic spacer to lower the tension as well). I am currently in the middle of a similar Hot Shot project and these decagon reels are a massive PITA.

#13 5 years ago

???

bonzo71

Pinside member

The issue with the game was the score reels. Many of the score reel switch were out of adjustment and some switch actuators on on the wrong side of the switches. I have about 3 hour invested in learning to tear these down and adjust them. I finally played a couple games in a row without any major issues. Even the 1x 2x 3x bonus is working properly! I have a couple bad lamp sockets and the to center 8 ball is not scoring or award the 8 ball. I think these are minor issues compared to reconstructing the reset bank and the score reels.

I should also mention I do not like the switches on the outside of the z1 and z2 relays. Someone before me actually has one of the outside switches bent back into the frame which caused some confusion on my part. Having the switch outside of the frame makes them difficult to adjust.

Thanks again to everyone who helped me out on this one!!

#14 5 years ago

LSW

Runbikeskilee

Pinside member

So, did it end up being one or more of the 8 reset switches on the Player 3 and 4 score reels that didn't open enough to let the Z2 relay to drop out ?

I agree that the topmost switches on Z2 and Z1 are strange and also that the switch actuator design on that era of Decagon reel is extremely "clunky". That's about as nice a thing I can say about them.

Lee

#15 5 years ago

???

bonzo71

Pinside member