(Topic ID: 219976)

Gottlieb Hot Shot

By mikusm

5 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 19 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by HowardR
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 5 years ago

Having an issue with hot shot. For starters I have cleaned and aligned all relays, switches and stepper units. The player unit cam was free spinning on the shaft, now it is aligned properly. Now the problem. Press start and the game goes through the start up sequence, including incrementing the player unit to ball1/player 1 and kicks out the ball, three times. If I put the ball right back in without hitting any switches, the bonus unit goes through its sequence. It doesn't kick out the next ball and if I activate the trough switch, it doesn't increment the ball or player if in multiple player. If I touch any targets, it kicks out the ball. Things I have verified. P relay, S relay, H relay, SB relay and associated motor switches have been checked for proper operation. Ohmed out connections. Can someone explain the add a player circuit in detail? I have an electronics background and understand schematics.

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#2 5 years ago

For starters I have cleaned and aligned all relays, switches and stepper units.</blockquote

This usually creates more problems, as you found out here. But I would check the make/break on ZB.

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#3 5 years ago
Quoted from mikusm:

For starters I have cleaned and aligned all relays, switches and stepper units.

Usually a mistake, as it tends to create new problems. Check the make/break on ZB.

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#4 5 years ago

Hi mikusm
I start to read Your post-1 ... including incrementing the player unit to ball1/player1 and kicks out the ball - well, so far so good, THEN ", three times" - this "three times" I do not understand, please explain.

It is tricky to do strange stuff in an EM-Pin - hard to look-up in the schematics so I would like to do a start-up and then play a game.
See here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1247&picno=64977&zoom=1 on the bottom is "left to right" the Control-Bank with its huge Reset-Arm. Please toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - then manually move the Reset-Arm - all relays do reset. Then plug-in the main power cord - then watch the Control-Bank while You toggle-on the main power switch - do You see the "QB-Game-Over-Relay(s) and the ZB-First-Ball-Relay" plunge / drop ? Then start a new game --- the pin does resetting - finally the Player-Unit steps to its Home-Position (Player-1-Ball-1) AND the pin does reset the Control-Bank (does Your pin do ?) - then the ball is kicked out. Now please make some tens points - make some hundreds points - big question: Does the ZB-First-Ball-Relay in the Control-Bank "plunge/drop" ?
(((We talk later about the Player-Unit - basically it is one step after - after - after --- Home-Position is Player-1-Ball-1 - then Player-2-Ball-1 - then Player-3-Ball-1 - then Player-4-Ball-1 - then Player-1-Ball-2 and so on))) Greetings Rolf

#5 5 years ago

The ZB relay is fine.
Rolf, didn't have time tonite. Will follow your process tomorrow.

#6 5 years ago

What about this whole fun sequence? Check everything that goes into O.

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#7 5 years ago

@rolf_martin_062. Yes. When powered up, ZB and both game over relays engage. When the player unit is off of player 1/ball1 and there is a score on the reels the game engages SB1 and SB2, moves reels and player unit to the correct position then the reset arm engages. Resetting ZB, game over relays and SB1/SB2. It does not, however, kick out the ball. (It was earlier this week but not now). When I hit a target by hand, leaving the ball in the out hole, it kicks out the ball into the lane. When the ball drains whether I hit anything or not it cycles the bonus relay but it doesn't score on the reels. When complete it doesn't kick out the ball or move the player unit to the next ball or player.

#8 5 years ago

Hi mikusm
good - the pin does resetting and in the end the huge Reset-Arm on the Control-Bank fires and resets all relays in the Control-Bank. - Then the problem "no kicking out the ball". Then You describe stuff that only an owner of an "Hot Shot" can try to "reproduce on his pin". I do not have an Hot Shot - I would like to dig in into "Ball does not kick out".

currieddog shows a snippet in post-6 --- I show "a bit greater / larger area" - see the JPG - on top marked "blue": The Ball-Kicker fires when the O-Outhole-Relay is pulling (switch therefore is closed) and the motor runs and closes "motor-4C" - and we are not on the last ball in play so "XB-Relay" is not activated.
The O-Outhole-Relay fires when (bottom of JPG, marked "brown") a lot of stuff happens - of interest specifically: "Switch on Q-Ball-Return-Relay" is closed.
The Q-Relay fires (marked grey) when a lot of stuff happens - of interest specifically: "Ball-Return-Switch is closed" - the Switch below the Outhole - we often call it "Outhole-Switch".

Ask a friend to help - have the playfield raised - the friend puts a finger in the Outhole - this simulates "Ball is laying there": You start a game - when it comes to "NOW the ball should be kicked out": Wear rubber gloves or use a wooden stick - Press the armature of "Q-Relay" - question: What happens ? If nothing happens: Press the armature of O-Relay - question: What happens ? Greetings Rolf

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#9 5 years ago

Rolf,
Initially when I tried it, both Q and O caused the ball to kick out. After doing this, now Q is engaged fully after the reset bar but it still doesn't kick out the ball. O is not engaged, when I do it manually, it kicks out the ball.
Mike

#10 5 years ago

Rolf/@curriedog
Fixed the ball kickout issue. The Q relay was not engaging the motor, unless I pushed it by hand. Contacts were barely touching. After adjustment ball kicks out fine. It is not, however, advancing to the next ball on one player. Nor advancing to the next player on multiple players. Leads me to my original question. How does the player circuit work?
Mike

#11 5 years ago
Quoted from mikusm:

How does the player circuit work?

See this extract from the manual.

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#12 5 years ago

@howardr,
Makes perfect sense. If that was true. The schematic for the motor does not show that P engages it. Any ide which contacts it would be if indirectly?
Thanks.
Mike

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#13 5 years ago

I see what you mean. Probably the switch on the Ball Return (O) relay

#14 5 years ago

Yes, I was thinking that. I couldn't figure out the timing. P is fairly momentary as it only locks from the middle of the motor cycle to the end. O makes the motor run correctly but it never engages the player. If I move the player by hand, it finds home on startup as it should. I'll keep at it. Thanks a bunch for the excerpt from the manual though.

Mike

#15 5 years ago

Thanks Rolf, @howardr, @currieddog. I got it. The third alignment of the P relay did it! Needed just a minuscule gap between the contacts. There are a few more problems but should be achievable from here.

Mike

#16 5 years ago

Hi Mike
great, You could fix the problem. The Gottlieb Manuals / Startup-Procedures are NOT "in detail" --- see HowardR 's JPG in post-11 --- see the JPG here: The P-Relay gets Initial-Current through the closing of the Through-Switch - the P-Relay actuates - therefore its Self-Hold-Switch closes AND THIS makes the O-Relay to pull-in - AND the pulling-in O-Relay THEN makes the motor to run.

In post-10 You write "How does the Player Circuit work ?" Are You happy with the situation "fixed" - or do You want to look at "How does the Player-Unit sometimes does only one step (4-Player-Game) - always four steps (1-Player-Game) - 1 or 2 or 3 steps depending on 2- or 3-Player-Game and what player was playing" ? Greetings Rolf

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#17 5 years ago

rolf_martin_062 ,
The unit is operating correctly. I am satisfied with the repair. The P relay engaging the O is the piece I wasn't seeing, thank you for the clarification and your time and experience. I have a Big Brave and Drop a Card repair after this one. Hopefully I don't get stuck like I did here but good to know such experienced techs are available and helpful.

Mike

#18 5 years ago

Hi Mike
Late Gottlieb 4-Player-Pins do no longer have this strange logic (the pulling-in of P-Relay makes the O-Relay to pull-in) --- see the first JPG "Surf Champ".
I learned about the "strange logic" on my "Orbit" - my Orbit fires the Ball-Return-Coil (Outhole-Kicker) TWICE --- I thought "fault" - but, see the second JPG --- everytime I make 100 points: the light steps one step counterclockwise --- when a full circle is made I get a bonus added to the bonus ladder. When I loose the ball: The stepper must step forward (+/- reset), this is done by the pulling O-Relay and the Score-Motor doing a turn of 120 degrees, pulsing five times.
BUT sometimes the stepper must step 6,7,8,9 steps forward --- Gottlieb invented the "strange logic" - the O-Relay is made pulling a second time and so the stepper is made stepping - reaching its Zero-Position. Greetings Rolf

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#19 5 years ago
Quoted from mikusm:

The P relay engaging the O

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

pulling-in of P-Relay makes the O-Relay to pull-in

In case someone reads this thread in the future, the O relay only indirectly engages the P relay like this:

Ball on ball return switch activates Ball Return (O) relay
O launches the ball to shooter lane
Trough switch activates Add Player Unit (P) relay

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