(Topic ID: 288315)

Gottlieb Funland: Game Won't End

By Flip-it-good

6 days ago

Topic Stats

  • 28 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 day ago by Flip-it-good
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider


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#1 6 days ago

Hi folks, I have a Gottlieb Funland and when it gets to ball 5, I just keep playing ball 5 over and over each time the ball drains. The game will not end!

Also, the knocker coil will not fire when a free game (credit) is rewarded. I put the multimeter on the knocker coil wires and manually added a credit in the back box and the voltage is there at the knocker coil wires: 30 volts I believe. But the knocker coil does not move. One of my pinsider friends was kind enough to send me a brand new coil and I installed it and still get no knock, yet the power is there when the back box credit coil fires. Can someone verify what voltage should be seen on that knocker coil when a credit is rewarded? Many thanks! Scott

#2 6 days ago

If the Game Over relay (X) on the 4 relay Control bank doesn't activate when the 5th ball drains, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156

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#3 6 days ago

Howard shoots....... He scores!!! Thank you Howard, thanks to your cross hairs on the correct area, I traced the problem down to a broken connector wire on a set of snow-shoes on the ball count unit! (See photo) Just sitting there broken. Soldered it back on, all is well...

Upon further inspection of the knocker coil every time there is a signal for a free game from the replay unit there is almost no power at that coil. I originally thought I saw around 30 volts when a replay was triggered. I have my DMM connected to the coil leads set for DC volts. Is that right?
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#4 6 days ago
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#5 5 days ago

I think it should be AC.

#6 5 days ago

It's AC.

Still don't understand if the switch on the replay unit is closing why there is no knock. You may need a long jumper to the knocker in case there is a busted wire. Hard to believe but occasionally it happens.

#7 5 days ago

Ok, now that I have the DMM on AC, it reads 30.2 volts at the knocker coil wires when the replay unit fires. Plunger still not moving. I took the coil right off the knocker housing and laid it on its side. I hit the replay unit and the plunger just barely moved. Should there be more than 30 volts coming to that coil when that fires?

#8 5 days ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

Ok, now that I have the DMM on AC, it reads 30.2 volts at the knocker coil wires when the replay unit fires. Plunger still not moving.

This just makes no sense. This one has me stumped because voltage at the coil and the coil is good means it should fire.

#9 5 days ago

I tried switching the wires around, that made no difference. I tried moving the plunger to the top side of the coil and it moved just a smidge towards the center of the coil. But that plunger should fly right through there...
30.2 volts AC. Two different types of plungers and no difference. Smooth as silk. No drag, no hang-ups...

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#10 5 days ago

Sometimes when I’m troubleshooting electrical systems, a connection can be good enough to get a voltage reading, but not good enough to power the load. Maybe try cleaning any contacts that feed that knocker coil.

#11 5 days ago

Do have the plastic or thinner ends pointing up? Can't tell from the pic.

#12 5 days ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

Also, the knocker coil will not fire when a free game

Did you check these two sw. on the circuit?

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#13 5 days ago

Yes the white plastic end points up to give it a good knock when it hits the knocker housing. The bare metal side sits on the bottom on that rubber grommet. Curriedog, I will check that circuit and Jason's point I will clean contacts within the circuit...stand by...

#14 5 days ago

Continuity checks out from the coil all the way to the back box replay unit. Green/Yellow wire goes to W relay and then from there Orange/ Blue wire goes all the way back to the replay unit switch.

The only problem is somebody that had this game before I got it did some sort of hack with a jumper wire at W relay. The black wire is cut from the top of W relay lug as you can see in the first picture and a jumper goes from the double green wire at the bottom lug of W to white wire at S (Start relay). If I put the double black wire back on the top lug of the W relay and take the jumper away, the game will not start. Game adds 2 credits, score motor turns, but no game start. Its almost as if W needs something from S to start the full sequence.

HOWEVER....if I leave double black connected at top lug of W relay AND put the hack back, jumpering bottom green wire of W relay to white wire of S (start relay) THEN, game starts and knocker coil works! But, now each time I start a game 2 credits are added to the replay reel. Soon it maxes out at 15.

Someone did something before I got the game I wish I could put it next to an exact replica and trace wires!

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#15 4 days ago

Attach one end of an alligator clip jumper wire to the Green&Yellow wire on the knocker coil and tap the other end on the Red&Green wire on the 15 amp fuse. That should give a good solid pulse to the coil and help you localize the problem.

#16 3 days ago

I jumped the coil like you suggested Howard and it did fire...?

#17 3 days ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

I jumped the coil like you suggested Howard and it did fire...?

Then the knocker unit is OK, including its coil, so Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156

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#18 3 days ago

I’m kinda embarrassed about how dirty my Sky Jump is, but maybe your coin chute adjustment settings are why you get 2 credits.

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#19 3 days ago

Yes, that's why I'm getting the two credits but it shouldn't do that when you start a game. I can't start a game without that W to S jumper Don't worry about your interior cabinet just have fun!

#20 2 days ago

It looks to me like the jumper between the W relay and the S relay is a misguided attempt to put the game on free play. If I had to guess, what they did was to re-wire the extra chute coin switch on the coin door onto the replay button. But, as jasonspoint28 noted, since the game was adjusted to only add 2 credits for each coin switch closure, moving that coin switch wire to the replay button didn't actually start a new game. So to fix that, they jumpered the W relay signal wire to the S relay signal wire, so that pressing the replay button would trigger the S relay. But that also triggered the W relay, so they clipped the black wire from the W relay to prevent the W relay from firing. Yikes.

Needless to say, this is not the easiest way to put a game on free play.

EDIT: I pulled out my Fun Land schematic, and based on that, it shows that this game has the combined 1st & 2nd chute adjustment plug, not the one shown in post #18 above. So, you will probably need to change the wiring on the coin door so that it is back the way it is supposed to be if you want to remove the jumper between the W and S relays. That may be a way you can go, if the coin door wiring hasn't been hacked up too much.

The coin door should have a common orange wire going to one side of every coin switch, and also to one side of the replay button. If the coin door is still wired to factory spec, there will be a brown wire on the other side of the replay button. For the coin switches, there will be a blue wire, a yellow wire, and a green wire going to the other side of each of the coin switches (depending on how many coin switches your door has). If you door is wired differently than this, it has been hacked.

I suspect that someone jumpered the green wire (extra chute coin switch wire) to the replay button where the brown wire should be. If that is the case, you can remove the green wire from the replay button, and re-attach the brown wire. Then you'll need to permanently close the switch on the replay unit that opens at zero to shut off the replay button. Once you do that, your game should properly be set on free play. At that point, you can remove the jumper between the S relay and the W relay, and resolder the double-black wire to the W relay coil.

If the coin door wiring has been hacked such that you can't easily follow the above description (it happens more than you might think) please let us know and maybe post pics of the door wiring so we know what you're dealing with.

No matter what else you do or don't do with your game, it is absolutely essential that you confirm that the clipped double-black wire at the W relay lug has the two black wires solidly soldered to each other. This is THE main daisy-chain return wire for every coil, and if those two wires become separated, that would absolutely knock out one or more important functions on your bottom board.

By the way, none of this has anything at all to do with your knocker problem, except for a possible issue with the W relay knocker mute switch, which might not be making good contact. But that would be more of a coincidence rather than a direct root-cause connection. Any time the W relay is not pulled in, that mute switch should be making solid contact, allowing the knocker to fire. Since the W relay never pulls in if it is disconnected, that W relay switch should always be closed. But it may not be making good contact, which would prevent your knocker from sounding.

- TimMe

#21 2 days ago

One other suggestion: If you are still having your knocker issue, I strongly recommend that you put away the DMM (if you haven't already) and do not use it to troubleshoot your game. A DMM just isn't a good tool to use to track down circuit faults in an EM game that is getting power. You can easily get all kinds of false readings, which will just cause you to go in circles.

In my experience, a DMM is good for doing the following in an EM game:
1. Checking fuses (out of circuit).
2. Checking transformer power rails (input and output).

Along with that, the two best tools for tracking down the root cause of game circuit faults in an EM are:
1. The schematic.
2. A long jumper wire with an aligator clip on each end.

- TimMe

#22 1 day ago

Wow! Tim, this is unbelievable thank you for the wealth of information! I'm going to check every sentence! My coin door looks very good.... All switches and coin mechs are clean, not bent and they work. There are orange and brown wires as I recall in very good condition. However, there are two wires taped together or taped apart with some masking tape in there. So yes, someone did something. As far as the coil functioning, once I reconnected the double black to the top of the W relay the coil fires now and fires correctly for gameplay such as specials and reaching score replays when it needs to.
The circuit just adds 2 credits everytime the start button is pressed rather than subtracting them. Which I'm sure has a lot to do with all of this.... I will dig deeper this evening and report back... Thank you so much Tim for the guidance...

#23 1 day ago

Thank goodness for TimMe! I’m like a level 5 troubleshooter, while Tim is on level 100.

#24 1 day ago

Okay, yes there are two cut wires that were taped up that went to the third coin switch I assume, but they just sit here unconnected. Double orange which are twisted together and a single brown (see picture). The first coin chute has a blue and double orange, the middle coin chute has a yellow and double orange and of course the cut double orange and brown wires are just sitting here for the third chute. The third coin chute switch is in there but nothing is attached to it. The start button has green and orange wires and the slam switch in front of it is red/green and what looks to be brown or slate hard to tell with age.

When W is at rest there are two closed contacts right up front. Orange/Blue Green/yellow and Yellow/Blue White/Blue. All the others close when energized and those front two open, is the way it's situated.

The double black wires on the top lug of W are hard soldered together very well and I did reattach them to the top lug.

So if I read the above post correctly I should unsolder the green wire from the start switch at the door and solder the floating cut brown wire there instead. Then the double orange goes on one side of the switch just like the other two coin switches and the green that I unsoldered from the start switch goes to the other lug of that same third coin switch? I would like to have the coin chutes work for credit-up and then push start button with no free-play in the door.

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#25 1 day ago

Brown wire attached to start button, green wire removed. Double orange freshly stripped and soldered. double orange now to one side of third coin switch and green to the other side of third coin switch. Bam! Everything is working properly 100%!!!! Coin switch advances two credits on two chutes and one on the other. Game starts fine, knocker works where it should! Tim thank you so much for your fantastic direction and descriptions! You were spot-on with everything that followed "I Suspect that someone..." It was like you could see the machine from there! ..and Scott thank you so much for reaching out to Tim on my behalf and all the emails, telegraph's and morse code since Christmas, I learned so much here. Electromechanicals used to intimidate me and now I have a much greater appreciation as I learn how things work... The schematic was folded in just the right spot where I couldn't read any of the wire colors to try and backwards trace wires to the coin door!

Crazy kids with their Hacks!
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#26 1 day ago

I had no idea the coin door was hacked. That explains a whole lot of why we had so many issues with that W relay and that stupid jumper.

Part of working on these games is knowing who to turn to when you know you're stumped. We have several top guys on here. And we are lucky to have them.

I'm glad it's fixed. That was a long process. My ok only question is what idiot went through all that just to put a game on free play? That is insanity of a whole different level.

I'll take my coil back if you don't need it

#27 1 day ago
Quoted from Flip-it-good:

Bam! Everything is working properly 100%!!!!

That's great to hear, I'm glad you got everything straightened out!

- TimMe

#28 1 day ago

To your point Scott...Many people don't worry about details, and that's ok for them, they just want to rig it so that it plays. They get a machine and don't clean the playfield, don't adjust anything, don't replace anything...they just want it to light up and play. I can't enjoy a machine until it's completely finished to factory specs, cleaned and polished. And even then I'm busy in the evening fixing concaved inserts, touch-ups, making custom apron cards etc...that's just me...crazy, I know...

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