(Topic ID: 299133)

Gottlieb Fast Draw Extra bonus when lit problem

By WolfWeb

2 years ago


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  • 20 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by paulace
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#1 2 years ago

I just got this Fast Draw. I'm very new to EM's so if you could speak in simple terms that would be great.

It worked great for a few days and today the A, B, C lights started staying permanently lit, regardless of the rollovers and did not reset as they are meant to after each ball.

I had a look under the playfield and the unit in the photo I have attached had come loose from it's butterfly screws and had dropped down into I assume is the maintenance position.

I put it back and tightened the screws but the lights were still stuck on. I had another look and noticed a brown wire had also come off, I assume from the coil that operates that unit. I put that back on temporarily with an alligator clip and the lights reset and lit when the rollovers were activated and all seemed ok.

Except now I'm not sure when the Extra Bonus When Lit light, between the flippers is meant to come on. It used to come on during the last ball. But now it doesn't light.

Question one is when is that light meant to be lit? And what are the details of the extra bonus, is it 2x or something like that?

Question 2 is do I have that brown wire in the right spot? I assume so since it fixed the abc lights issue.

Thanks in advance, I really appreciate any help, small or big.

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#2 2 years ago

Welcome, WolfWeb - Fast Draw is a great game.

It looks like you've figured out where to attach that brown wire if the relay bank is resetting now. Looks like someone replaced the original orange wire on the other side of that coil with that lamp cord...but it must be working.

When you're set to 5 balls, the Extra Bonus light is controlled only by the LB relay, which I believe is in that same stack of inter-lock relays that you have taken the picture of. If you have the machine set to 3 balls, it should also come on when you've rolled over all 3 rollovers via a switch on the 4B relay in that same stack. Maybe when the wingnuts loosened and the whole stack swung down, a switch on the LB relay got bent a bit. Loosen the wingnuts again and look carefully at all the switches on that LB relay, but particularly one with a white-orange wire, and a black-white wire. The snippet below is what the light circuit looks like.

The back side of that relay bank is a mess of switch tabs and wires - look at the back side of that same switch and make sure no tabs or wires are touching and all the wires are attached.

It's also possible that the bulb is burned out, the light bulb socket is janky (that's pretty common), or a wire has popped off going to the light socket. Look carefully at the wiring to make sure it's all still attached.

In 5-ball setting, the Extra Bonus light should come on during your final ball. If you have the game set to 5 ball, you should get 2X your bonus, unless you roll over all 3 rollovers - A, B and C - then you should get 3X your bonus.

Good luck!

FD extra bonus light (resized).JPGFD extra bonus light (resized).JPG

#3 2 years ago
Quoted from WolfWeb:

when the Extra Bonus When Lit light, between the flippers is meant to come on. It used to come on during the last ball

That's the way it should work. If set to 3 ball play it should also come on when the A-B-C sequence is completed
pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

Quoted from WolfWeb:

do I have that brown wire in the right spot?

Yes
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#4 2 years ago

Thanks very much for the help. It's set to 5 balls. When I let the stack hang down the light comes on during the 5th ball. But when I push that stack up in place the light goes out unless I wiggle the stack.

I get double bonus on the 5th ball with the light lit or not. So the bonus switch seems to be working. I checked all that and it fires on the fifth ball and changes the switch.

It seems to either be a loose wire that powers the bonus light at the actual stack. Because when push that up it goes on and off. Or some kind of adjustment on that bar that the coil actuates is needed as that can flicker the light when you touch it.

I'd like to understand it more, maybe if I play with it more I can work it out.

I wiggle the actual globe and it makes no diff, if the stack is hanging down the globe is strong and touch it doesn't change anything.

On another issue, can you look at the attached image and guess what this switch could have been? It's got tape on it so it can't activate and it doesn't seem to have an associated coil or holes where a coil was. It's located right next to the troublesome bonus light.

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#5 2 years ago

Update: The bonus light is fixed. paulace was right, when it dropped down part of the LB relay got bent a bit. Specifically it was a leaf switch that turns the bonus light on or off. So the bonus worked if the light was on or off, as another part of the relay controlled that. But that little switch just controlled the light. And there is a bit of play in that unit, so it seemed fine but vibration would just be enough to hold them apart when it was all in place with the playfield down. I just bent the leaf a tiny bit to make up for the play and it's fine again.

Thanks for the help! I still wonder what that switch in the photo above is, it has a weight on it, like a chime knocker or something, I have no idea.

#6 2 years ago

Yeah, glad you got that light problem fixed. Do you have a switch leaf bending tool - they're very useful for just that job, which you'll run into occasionally as you play your machine.

That switch is just a tilt switch on the underside of the playfield. If you're too rough with the game, that switch would close and tilt the game. You don't need it for home use.

#7 2 years ago

Ah that explains that.

I don't have that tool put have just ordered one from pbresource! I used a par of needle nose pliers which where not ideal.

What I found useful in this fix was a Endoscope Inspection Camera I had, it let me see those switches up close while I joggled the bracket and made the light flicker. That whole unit is hard to get at which is why it swings down I guess.

Next job and I may regret it is to somehow clean the target mech. A couple of the targets occasionally stick, causing the bonus to go up higher than it should.

It's not in great shape this game, it was used recently in a Pinball museum so it has be played a lot and patched up quite a bit but I really like it so can overlook that.

#8 2 years ago

That switch bender is a very useful basic tool - if you have an EM, you should have one, so glad you got one from PBR. Some people prefer needle-nose pliers...to each his own. Just remember to bend switches (usually the short leaf) from where it exits the stack, not along its length.

I would LOVE to have an endoscope inspection camera for seeing what's going on in certain tough-to-reach areas - that should come in handy too, though I don't think PBR sells those.

When you say target mech, do you mean the big stepper that's attached to the underside of the playfield on the right side towards the back? If so, that's the bonus unit, and be careful if you get into those steppers. Take photos before you start in case something falls apart in the middle of cleaning. Lots of times, you can just take the rotating brown disc with the rivets off, clean the rivets and "snowshoe" contacts, and flush some mineral spirits into some of the gunked-up (that's a technical term) metal-on-metal parts to remove some of the grime. Just make sure all the parts that are supposed to move, any parts with springs attached, are moving freely. Once the gunk is removed, you can lube the metal-on-metal parts with just the tiniest bit of oil, if you'd like - don't over-do it. You usually don't have to take the thing completely apart, thankfully.

Just work carefully - you don't want to cause yourself more problems. It's a great game - good luck!

#9 2 years ago

I will be having a look at that area at some point as it is pretty dirty. But I meant the drop targets. A couple of those kind of stick halfway down when hit and that makes the bonus trigger multiple times. It's just two of them, the same ones do it occasionally. I'm not sure what I can do with them yet or if I'd have to pull them right off and disassemble them or not, they look pretty dirty under the playfield.

Thanks for the tip, I will defiantly take photos and video. Probably so I can show you when I get stuck, lol, sorry.

Yes the camera is great, I have one that plugs into my laptop via usb but they do make them with micro USB and you attach them to your phone. It has led lights on the tip and you can adjust the brightness of them. You can also record and take photos.

#10 2 years ago

Well if your bonus unit is working correctly, best not to mess with it.

Drop targets you can futz with a bit to reduce friction enough to allow them to slide down more easily. There's a metal arm through each target that slides along a leaf and opens/closes switches on the way. Make sure the side of that leaf contacting the metal arm is clean (a Q-tip and alcohol or mineral spirits works well there), and then you can use your brand new switch bender to bend that stiff metal leaf so that it does make contact with the tip of the sliding metal arm, but the leaf isn't pushing against it so hard that it stops the arm from sliding all the way down. Just make sure that switches that open and close as that arm moves down still open and close when you're done.

Hope that makes sense.

#11 2 years ago

Good advice, stay away! Another issue with the targets is when you drop all targets and the two horseshoes pop back up, you only get 500 for the lit one and about 3000 for the other. As I understand it I'm meant to get 5000 for the lit one. Would that be in the bonus unit or somewhere else? The bonus count at the end of a ball is off fairly often, get a few thousand less than what the lights show but that's no big deal. Wouldnt mind getting the target scoring working right though.

#12 2 years ago

When you've dropped all 10 drop targets, and the 2 black horseshoe one pop back up, you are supposed to get 5,000 pts each time you knock one down. The circuit is kind of fun to follow along.

The circuit snippet below is of the actual drop target switches and what they control:

FD drop circuit (resized).JPGFD drop circuit (resized).JPG

There are 4 relays involved in the process:

L = 1000 pt relay
5B = drop targets completed relay
I = 50 pt relay
J = 500 pt and add bonus unit relay

Before you've knocked down all 10 drops, the 5B relay is not energized, and all switches are as drawn on the schematic. The red part of the circuit above doesn't come into play because the 5B switches are open - no current can flow that way. The drop target switches do complete a circuit along the green lines which energizes the J relay, which gives you 500 pts. and adds a bonus.

BUT - once you've knocked down all 10 drops, the 5B relay energizes and all the 5B switches on the schematic change state - in this case, from open to closed. Now you have a path available through the red lines which energizes the I relay. Current is flowing through both the red and green parts of the circuit now every time you hit a drop target (only the 2 black ones are up at this point), and both the I and J relays are activated.

The I and J relays have switches on them that start the score motor turning 1/3 of a revolution.

The part of the circuit below is where the actual scoring takes place:

FD drop circuit L relay (resized).JPGFD drop circuit L relay (resized).JPG

The L relay is responsible for scoring 1000 pts. Now that the I and J relays are energized, the 2 make/break switches are in the opposite state than what is drawn. So current can flow through the red lines to the L relay. The Motor 1A switch closes 5 times during the score motor's 1/3 revolution, so the L relay gets 5 pulses - which gives you 5000 pts.

If this feature isn't scoring correctly, you should probably first look closely at the 5B relay, then at those make/break switches on the I and J relays. Make sure the contacts are clean and the switches are changing state when the armature moves.

Hope that makes sense.

#13 2 years ago

Your other bonus scoring problem can be tricky. This machine is very sensitive to switch timing issues. I suspect a switch somewhere in the bonus scoring circuit is gapped a tiny bit too wide or narrow. A lot of machines wouldn't care too much about that - this one seems to.

Anyway, first things first - see if you can get that drop target problem fixed.

#14 2 years ago

Thanks. I'm having trouble identifying the 5B and I relays. Maybe you can give me a clue as to where they might be located? (images included)

I've found the J relay in the bottom of the cabinet (see first photo) and as I trip any target it activates and gives me usually 300 points. Even after all targets have been dropped and the two black ones reset, it still only gives usually 300 points when either of the two black targets are hit.

I think it should give 500. Then 5000 for the blacks after reset.

Sometimes this varies a bit, but its only 300 fairly consistently.

So maybe I should start there and identify why I only get 300 and not 500?

I don't see anything obvious wrong with it, and I will clean that J relay.

I've also included a video of all ten targets being dropped, then the black targets after they reset, just to give an idea of the scoring as it stands.

I know that the whole machine probably needs cleaning everything from top to bottom, but if you have the patience, I wouldn't mind just sorting this out as it's helping me understand how everything works. With a fix behind me I'd feel more confident tackling other areas.

The only other relay banks I can see are photo 2 which are marked from the bottom: A, B, C, D, EE

and in the back box, (photo 3) which are marked from the bottom: F, Z1, Z2, L, M, N (is that the L relay you are talking about?)

Thanks for the diagram, I have a schematic on order from PBResource.

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#15 2 years ago

Yes, the L relay is in the head, that's the 1000 pt relay.

There is a bank of 6 interlock (latching) relays on the underside of the pf near the bottom. 5B is the 5th from the left - you can see it in this photo.

interlock bank (resized).jpginterlock bank (resized).jpg

This relay bank is held in place by 2 wingnuts on either side. Loosen those and the relays will drop into a position where the switches are a little more accessible for cleaning. After you clean the contacts, latch and unlatch the relays from that position and watch to see that the switch contacts open/close as they should. When you're done, make sure you put the bank back in place and tighten those wingnuts again.

I is on the bottom board - between the T and R relays.

I relay (resized).jpgI relay (resized).jpg

#16 2 years ago

For your 300 pt rather than 500 pt problem, you want to look closely at the I and J relays, and also at Motor 1A switch that has a GR+RED wire on one side and RED-WH wire on the other. That should be feeding the M relay (100 pt relay) to give you 500 pts.

500 pt circuit (resized).JPG500 pt circuit (resized).JPG

In case you're not familiar with how Gottlieb names their motor switches, number 1-4 refer to positions around the motor platters as viewed from above, letters A-E refer to levels of switches as viewed from the side, A on the bottom:
score motor switches (resized).jpgscore motor switches (resized).jpg

#17 2 years ago

5B seems to me to be working correctly and I cleaned the contacts.

I don't quite understand when the I relay is meant to fire in all of this.

When I drop all the targets, the J relay fires as the last target is dropped and also another next to that called k, target bank reset.

But the I relay doesn't fire.

Also it doesn't seem to fire when I drop the reset black targets either.

I does fire when I trigger the rollovers though, so it's working.

Could you have a look at these two videos? Is this looking correct?

When last target is dropped:

Dropping the reset black target:

#18 2 years ago

There are 4 stand-up bullseye targets up near the top of the pf. At all times, 2 should be lit and 2 should be unlit - the lits and unlits should alternate every time the center pop bumper is hit. The 2 that are lit should give you 500 pts and increase your bonus. The 2 that are unlit should give you 50 pts and energize the I relay. Is that happening? You won't score the 5000 pts for the reset black drops unless the I and J relays are both firing as per the second schematic shot in post #12.

Also, in one of the videos, I see the hundreds score reel not responding as it should to what I'm hearing from the 100's chime. It sounds like the chime is (sometimes) ringing 5 times and the score reel is only increasing 3 or 4 times. Also, the cadence of the chime is off. It should ring evenly, not that Daaa-da-daa-daa-daaa that I'm hearing. It sounds like the 2nd scoring pulse is delayed and comes butted up against the 3rd pulse. That sound is wrong, but consistent at least. Does the same thing happen on the other players?

#19 2 years ago

Hi Paulace, I haven't replied in a couple of days, work got crazy.

Plus I went ahead and did myself a mischief by dropping the playfield when putting it back down. Result is a bent flipper bracket and snapped the particle board thing that goes between the coil and the flipper mechanic. I'll order replacements for those.

The other one is now the target reset for the left side sometimes sticks. Here's a video of that, I wonder if you can advise on that? Maybe its bent but it kind of looks like the hole it pivots on was enlarged by the hit. Hard to explain but maybe the video will help.

For the other questions you asked, the bullseye targets do light alternatively and work as expected except they score 300 when lit and 50 when not lit. The lit score can vary, sometimes 500, sometimes 400 but mostly 300.

I tried all above on player two and it all seems pretty much the same, player two has the same issues as player one. I'll investigate the chimes more and get back to you.

#20 2 years ago

For your scoring problem, there is a Motor switch (Motor 1A) that feeds all the scoring except the bonus scoring. I suspected that at first, but the fact that your 50 pt scores are correct indicated that that switch is working as it should - that is, pulsing 5 times per score motor cycle. The fact that your 50 pt scores are correct also makes me think the I relay (50 pt relay) is working as it should as well.

It sounds like possibly your J relay is dropping out too early for some reason. There is a Motor 2B switch that cuts off the I and J relays once they've locked on. (Circuit in red in the snippet below) The two red switches labeled I and J are on those respective relays, and their job is to lock the relay on long enough for the 5 pulses from Motor 1A to score either 50, 500 or 5000 pts. At the end of the score motor cycle, the Motor 2B switch should open, letting the I and J relax relax again. I thought maybe that 2B switch was opening early, but your I relay is holding in long enough to supply the 50 pt scores, so I'm not sure what that leaves.

Can you watch the J relay while you press a lit stand-up bullseye target with your finger? It should stay pulled in until the score motor has completed its 1/3 revolution cycle. It should NOT relax before the score motor has almost finished its cycle. Does it do that?

I J 2B (resized).JPGI J 2B (resized).JPG

As far as your drop target reset sticking, you'll just have to look carefully at it and find where it's binding. Hard for me to troubleshoot that from here.

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