(Topic ID: 251471)

Gottlieb Far Out schematic error?

By MarkG

4 years ago


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  • 25 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by TimMe
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

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0Far-Out-Work-47 (resized).jpg
Far Out Player Unit (resized).jpg
Jungle motor timing (resized).jpg
JITB Add Player (resized).jpg
S76MotorStack1 (resized).jpeg
Pioneer Score Motor (resized).jpg
Motor timing chart rev04 (resized).jpg
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early score motor (resized).jpg
early score motor (resized).jpg
Far Out Motor 2C error (resized).jpg

#1 4 years ago

I helped troubleshoot a problem with a Gottlieb Far Out recently that seemed to reveal a schematic error. I'm hoping Far Out owners can check their games for what we found.

The symptom was that the Add Player Unit was getting two pulses when it should only get one so the game would skip players 2 and 4 for example. These are the relevant bits from the schematic:
Far Out Motor 2C error (resized).jpgFar Out Motor 2C error (resized).jpg
In a multiplayer game when the ball drains the Add Player Unit should usually get just one pulse through the Score Motor 2C and 1A switches which are wired in series (in the red boxes above). Putting these two switches in series should allow just the 2nd of the five pulses from the 1A switch to reach the Add Player Unit solenoid as shown in the first abbreviated Motor Sequence Chart above.

What was happening in this game was that the 2C switch was operating too early which allowed the very end of the first 1A pulse and the very beginning of the 2nd 1A pulse to reach the Add Player Unit solenoid as shown in the second Sequence Chart.

The solution was to move the switch dog on the Score Motor 2C switch stack from the "S" position to the "L" position which delayed the 2C switch so it overlapped just the 2nd 1A pulse as it should.

I always thought that the "S" and "L" positions for the switch dogs meant Short and Long, but now I think a better mnemonic might be Sooner and Later which describes what happens to the switch activations.

So the question I have for Far Out owners is, what position is your Score Motor 2C switch dog in, "S" or "L"? In this game it needed to be in the "L" position, but as you can see above the schematic calls for it to be in the "S" position.

The previous and next 4 Player games, Magnotron and Super Soccer, use the same basic circuit but call for the 2C switch dog to be in the "L" position. Does the Far Out schematic have a typo?

BTW for those wondering how this Far Out got that way. Our best guess is that someone had disassembled the Score Motor at some point (there was some evidence of this) and reassembled it as called for in the schematic. So games probably left the factory assembled correctly even though the schematic seems to be incorrect.

/Mark

#2 4 years ago

Nice job troubleshooting, MarkG ! You're becoming the repository for schematic errors...congratulations!

I don't have access to any machines that are similar enough to be useful to you, unfortunately.

1 year later
#3 3 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

I always thought that the "S" and "L" positions for the switch dogs meant Short and Long, but now I think a better mnemonic might be Sooner and Later which describes what happens to the switch activations.

Good idea, I'm agree with you !

#4 3 years ago

We've got a Far Out at the Olympia Pinball Museum, but we are currently closed down by order of the governor's coronavirus regulations. So I can't get there for a while to check that out.

4 months later
#5 3 years ago

I'd like to resurrect this thread to ask a more general question regarding switch dog settings... Has anyone found any Gottlieb EM machine from the 1963 to 1978 era that violates the following principles:

=======
Whenever a given machine uses switch position 1A, 1C, 2C, 3C, 4A or 4C, a switch dog is installed.

The ONLY switch dog set to the "L" position is the 2C position, ALL others (1A, 1C, 3C, 4A, 4C) are set to "S".

Switch positions 2A and 3A are never used.
=======

I have looked at representative sample of machines from Slick Chick to Jungle Queen and the only exceptions I've found have been due to error (as in this thread) or omission (my Jungle Queen schematic has no switch dogs indicated, but the motor timing chart agrees with other machines).

#6 3 years ago

TimMe described the score motor in some detail and has a nice composite pulse chart at https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1964-gottlieb-sea-shore-startup-sequence-help#post-6130215 that confirms some of your principles.

At a recent online repair clinic he confirmed that 2C is the only switch stack to use the L position. He also mentioned that the two position switch dog was introduced to address a timing issue with the 2C switch stack. The L position effectively delays the 2C pulse. The switch dog specification seems to have appeared in the schematics in about 1960. Dancing Dolls is an early example I found with the switch dogs specified.

Williams occasionally used a "long dwell" capability on their score motors to similarly manipulate the pulse timing.

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

Whenever a given machine uses switch position 1A, 1C, 2C, 3C, 4A or 4C, a switch dog is installed.
The ONLY switch dog set to the "L" position is the 2C position, ALL others (1A, 1C, 3C, 4A, 4C) are set to "S".
Switch positions 2A and 3A are never used.

100% correct. There are no Gottlieb score motors on any game that ever violate these rules. If you find a machine set differently from this, it is a mistake.

The reason you'll find switch dogs on cam levels A and C is because the thin edge of the two large stamped metal cams will cut a slot through a standard formed switch blade pretty quickly. The thick metal dogs are there as a mechanical buffer against cutting. And, the dogs are made to be replaceable, in case they get cut. It's fairly rare, but I have seen Gottlieb switch dogs with cuts in them.

Levels B, D, and E can use formed switch blades because the switches at these levels always ride over smooth round posts, so there is no danger of cutting a slot in those blades.

- TimMe

#8 3 years ago

For those who are interested, here is the back story as I understand it regarding the Gottlieb score motor. Some of this is an educated guess on my part, based on my experience working on Gottlieb games from 1945 through the 1950s, and also from reading accounts by some of the designers of that era.

In 1945, when game production started after WWII, Gottlieb machines didn't yet have score motors. Instead, they used something called a slo-drop coil, in concert with a small stepper, to generate repeat pulses for scoring. As post-war games got more complicated, it became obvious that the slo-drop coil was too cumbersome for generating pulse trains for scoring or other game features, so the score motor came into use.

It's not well known that Gottlieb had an early score motor design from circa 1946, using a cam that only had two score cycles per revolution. That unit wasn't around for very long and was replaced by the three-cycle cam a year or so later. According to the first Gottlieb parts catalog, the score motor assembly as we know it (with the three-cycle cam) was first used on Humpty Dumpty in October 1947. Both of these early cam assemblies had A-level and C-level cams that were stamped from phenolic sheet rather than metal. And, the switches that rode these early A and C cam edges did not have switch dogs at that time, they just had cam riders that were made from formed switch blades, like the B-level switches.

early score motor (resized).jpgearly score motor (resized).jpg

three-cycle cam (resized).jpgthree-cycle cam (resized).jpg

What probably happened is that after a year or so in the field, Gottlieb started getting back reports that the phenolic cam lobes on the A cam were getting worn down, and that the formed switch blades were getting slots cut into them from the cam edges. So they decided to make an engineering change to use stamped metal cams, and thicker metal dogs to ride them, in order to make the score motor more durable. But this caused a problem. The original base plate stamping layout for the switch mounts on the three-cycle score motor required that the formed switch blades for the 2C switches be longer than the formed switch blades for the other A-level and C-level cam riders.

That was no big deal when using formed blades, as it was easy to just use a longer switch blade for the 2C position. But, when the new switch dogs were added, with the metal yoke required to hold them, Gottlieb would either need two different length yokes, or one yoke that could somehow serve as a replacement for either length of yoke. Obviously, Gottlieb decided on one yoke, with the S and L slot positions being somewhat of an engineering hack to allow the yoke to be either of the two required lengths. This was a very good decision as far as I'm concerned. Personally, I would rather not try to keep track of two different types of switch dog yokes.

In any event, I'm pretty sure that's how we ended up with Gottlieb score motor yokes with both an S and an L slot. And as it turned out, that version of the score motor was dialed in well enough from an engineering perspective to be used on every Gottlieb pingame for the next three decades.

- TimMe

#9 3 years ago

Thanks!

I was working towards the same goal - a universal motor timing chart. A few of the '60's and early 70's schematics lack a timing chart and I was hoping to add one or, as a minimum, have one at my side when debugging. I've attached my (more traditional) attempt at a general timing chart..

I like your chart, Tim! It eliminates the redundancy, adds flow and compresses the chart down to a handy wallet size! I see you have generated it a full 15 years prior to my attempt. I guess I’m a little late to this party…

In comparing the two, I see we differ on the 1E switch. On both Volley and Spirit of 76 the 1E switch has the same timing as 1C (according to the schematic), but only on every third 120 degree rotation of the motor.

What’s the story on the 1D alternate? How common is that configuration?

Motor timing chart rev04 (resized).jpgMotor timing chart rev04 (resized).jpg
#10 3 years ago

Well, what is going on is that my chart is incomplete, and needs to be revised!

You're right, the 1E switch position can be configured a couple of different ways. There are games that have it configured as my chart shows it, but it was also very common to use the 1D, 4D, and 3D positions, and/or the 1E, 4E, and 3E positions for a one-of-three selection function, as you noted.

All of these D and E level switch positions can be configured to be actuated when the score motor is in the normal (home) position. Gottlieb often used these positions to select one of three feature variations, depending on which "home" position the score motor happens to be. An early example is Slick Chick, where these switches select whether the top center target will spot SLICK, CHICK, or SLICK-CHICK. A later example is, as you say, on Spirit of 76, where these switches select whether the kick-out hole will score an extra ball, a replay, or double bonus (assuming all of these features are activated).

To make this work, Gottlieb would only put one cam rod pointing up from the C level (rather than 3 rods, one for each score cycle). Since the score motor has three identical cycles per revolution, if there is only one cam rod at the D level, then each switch stack at 1D, 4D, and 3D will only be be actuated once every three score motor cycles. Depending on which of the three home positions the cam is in, that will determine which of these switch stacks gets actuated by the one D level rod, selecting that specific one-of-three feature.

They also did this with the E level. What they would do is put three cam rods pointing up, with two short rods for D level only, and one longer rod for E level. So in this configuration, the 1D, 4D, and 3D positions all get actuated every score motor cycle, but the 1E, 4E, and 3E positions only get actuated one-of-three as described above.

At some point I will try to make an updated chart that makes the operation of this type of configuration more clear.

Thanks - TimMe

#11 3 years ago

To answer your question on the 1D alternate switch timing, 1D is the only switch position (that I'm aware of) that can be used to generate a masking pulse that covers the 1st pulse of the five-pulse train on 1A. So when the game design required a masking function for the 1st pulse in the five-pulse train, the 1D switch would need to be configured for that timing. In the case where 1D was used for one-of-three feature selection, or something along those lines, then the 1D switch would be configured to be actuated at the motor normal (home) position. From my own experience, the need to mask the 1st pulse of the five-pulse train doesn't seem to come up very often, so I think the other configuration of 1D is probably the more common one.

Masking pulses are used in one of two ways. To select a specific pulse out of the five-pulse train, there is an NO switch at the masking switch position, wired in series with a 1A switch. The masking switch closes to allow that specific pulse to get through the circuit. Similarly, to eliminate a pulse from the five-pulse train, there is an NC switch at the masking switch position, also wired in series with a 1A switch. That masking switch opens to knock that specific pulse out of the circuit.

Probably the two most interesting uses of the masking function on the score motor would be the single selector pin used to select 2, 3, 4, or 5 credits per game on the coin chute, and also the circuit for advancing the player unit 1, 2, 3, or 4 times on a four-player machine, depending on the number of people playing. That player unit advance logic is one of the most confusing and difficult to understand circuits in the machine.

- TimMe

#12 3 years ago

Great discussion and info on the complexities of the score motor. A friend and I had been trying to figure out how Card Whiz/Royal Flush could score 3000 points until MarkG explained how switches could operate in the circuit to "drop out" 2 of the 5 pulses. We were searching the game and schematic for a 3 lobe cam or 3000 point relay, ha ha. The fact that score motors seem to rarely (almost never?) quit working is a testimony of the quality of the product.

Will

#13 3 years ago

I wonder about the 1E, 3E and 4E pulses though. Charts like this one from Pioneer show them all happening at the same time (0 degrees) at the start of the cycle:
Pioneer Score Motor (resized).jpgPioneer Score Motor (resized).jpg
I get that they only happen once in three cycles, but what confuses me is that the switch stacks don't appear to be 120 degrees apart. The #1 and #4 stacks appear to be 90 degrees apart while #3 stack is at some other angle relative to the other two. It's hard to imagine how a pulse generated by all three stacks from the same pin would all be at the start of the cycle.

#14 3 years ago

Mark, you're right that the switch mounts aren't 120 degrees apart, although I think positions 3 and 4 are pretty close to that spacing. The Gottlieb engineers worked around this in a couple of ways.

First, the D and E levels use formed switch blades to ride the cam rod. These switch blades are adjusted in length so that the switch stack at each position is pushed back by the cam rod at the motor normal (home) position.

Second, Gottlieb used metal offset extension plates on the baseplate switch mounts so that the switches at the D and E positions are not necessarily mounted at the same place as the switches on the A, B, and C levels. In particular, at position 1, the offset plate shifts the switch mount away from the #4 mount. This allows the formed blade of those switches to meet the D / E cam rod at the home position.

- TimMe

#15 3 years ago

Here's a pic of an extension plate on Volley that shifts the 1E pulse back to 0 degrees. I imagine a variation of that plate would be used to shift the 1D switch as well.

Actually, looking at it a bit closer, either they were planning an "F" level or that plate can be mounted lower to advance both 1D and 1E timing to 0 degrees.

S76MotorStack1 (resized).jpegS76MotorStack1 (resized).jpeg

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from TimMe:

.... That player unit advance logic is one of the most confusing and difficult to understand circuits in the machine.
- TimMe

On that thought (fact), I've been struggling with this circuit (on JITB, Jungle, Magnotron)... it looks simple, but I'm missing something as to how it works. How does a serial connection of 4A and 4C pass anything more than a glitch the size of a draftsman's pencil line?

JITB Add Player (resized).jpgJITB Add Player (resized).jpg
#17 3 years ago

Lots of great information in this thread - thanks guys!

#18 3 years ago

Hi DaMoib
at a time the machine wants to activate the XB-Relay. Greetings Rolf

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi DaMoib
at a time the machine wants to activate the XB-Relay. Greetings Rolf

Rolf, thanks... I'd agree IF the Motor switch pair was 4C and 1A, but the schematic says 4C and 4A - which do not line up on the timing diagram (Jungle, which has the same circuit, timing diagram attached). Is it a schematic error or am I missing something? I've always thought I'm missing something simply because the circuit is on 4 player schematics for three years (1972-1974).

Jungle motor timing (resized).jpgJungle motor timing (resized).jpg

#20 3 years ago

Hi DaMoib
post-18 I wrote "from memory" - I had severe illness in summer 2018 - vague memories to the time before - I refer to a JPG from December 2017 - by now I do NOT know if the JPG is good / correct - I must study in detail --- probably I was wrong in post-18 - not activating the XB-Relay - but activating the LB-Relay in an TWO Player-Game ? I must study in detail - or do we want to revive this here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-activating-of-lb-double-bonus-relay-gottlieb-4-player-pin#post-4105007 (see the JPG there). Greetings Rolf

#21 3 years ago

I've been looking at this but reviewing @rolf_martin_062's earlier work clarified it some for me. I think the desired behavior may be to only fire the XB/Last Ball relay after the Player Unit has finished stepping. The Player Unit advances on Motor 1A pulses from 1 to 4 times depending on the number of players:
Far Out Player Unit (resized).jpgFar Out Player Unit (resized).jpg
Each Player Unit advance pulse uses a different path as shown by the red numbers. By using 4A and 4C switches in series you get a narrow pulse to the XB relay after the 4th motor 1A pulse, but before the 5th pulse. That would be after the worst case where the Player Unit takes four steps in a one player game.

The same thing might have been accomplished by combining motor switches 4A and 1B, but there may be another reason why the pulse needs to be at the end of the normal motor 4A pulse (which 4C gives you) rather than at the beginning of it (which 1B would produce).

There is a lot of Score Motor trickery in mid-late 70s Gottlieb multi player games having to do with the bonus count. Maybe the interaction with the bonus count made 4C a better choice than 1B.

Edit: Looking further, XB does things like turn on multiple players' score lights and fire the QB/Game Over relay so it would definitely need to wait for the Player Unit to finish stepping.

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Maybe the interaction with the bonus count made 4C a better choice than 1B.

Mark, I'm pretty sure they used 4A/4C because they wanted to be sure that the player unit would not inadvertently get a pulse due to the 1A switch for the player unit still being closed. I think the timing between the trailing edge of 1A and the leading edge of 4A is very tight, so it would be easier for a such a phantom pulse to occur (due to 1A and 4A switch gap adjustment variations) if that part of the circuit was energized via 4A/1B.

These mid-seventies EM circuits from Gottlieb show just how over-wrought the switching logic was getting. If solid-state had not come in, Gottlieb probably would have needed to create a new score motor to handle all the stuff they were trying to accomplish with an assembly that was originally designed in 1947. That six-pulse bonus count per score motor cycle was really disappointing to see, as it was nowhere near the engineering quality standard that Gottlieb had maintained before.

- TimMe

#23 3 years ago

Wow, that pulse width has to be less than a quarter the size of a 1A pulse (or less, based on a copy of a copy of a copy... of the schematic timing chart). I can imagine them in the lab trying to validate that there is enough energy in the pulse to move the XB armature past the lock point in a worst case situation (misadjusted switches with dirty contacts, fast motor, sticky mechs). Yet it works pretty reliably 50 years later!

#24 3 years ago

Hi pinsiders
I hope You agree with me on my belief how the XB-Last-Ball-Relay is activated - see the JPG here.
In a ONE-Player-Game (five Balls per Game) the only Player plays his last ball - Player-Unit is in Position-16. He plays the Ball, looses the Ball, Ball enters the Outhole, closes Ball-Return-Switch, Bonus is counted down - then the O-Outhole-Relay pulls-in - NOW the XB-Relay pulls-in - along "my lightgreen wiring in the JPG".
In a TWO-Player-Game the second Player plays the last ball - Player-Unit is in Position-17 ... the Activation of the XB-Relay is done "a bit below in the JPG" - through closed PB3 and wiper being in Position-17. Much alike a THREE- and a FOUR-Player-Game.

Kerry Imming https://www.planetimming.com/ to https://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/Player%20Unit%20Troubleshooting.pdf in the end of page-3 of the document, last sentence "(XB-Relay) ... and the ball goes into the outhole" - well, not when the Ball goes into the Outhole - when the O-Relay pulls-in after Bonus-Count-Down after loosing the very last Ball.
But DaMoib did ask in his Post-16 about a strange wiring. The activating of XB-Relay is covered (I think) - so is this strange wiring for "activating the LB-Double-Bonus-Relay" ? And so I am standing with https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-activating-of-lb-double-bonus-relay-gottlieb-4-player-pin#post-4105007 ... Greetings Rolf

0Far-Out-Work-47 (resized).jpg0Far-Out-Work-47 (resized).jpg
#25 3 years ago

I agree with Rolf's explanation in post #24. The XB relay is tripped after the bonus count of the last ball of the last player, using the path he has highlighted. The 4A/4C circuit cannot be involved, because the pulse from that circuit only happens while the motor 1C switch to the XB relay is open.

@DaMoib, The 4A/4C circuit path is only used to trip the LB relay. This will occur at the start of the last ball for player 1. Note that the 4A/4C circuit bypasses the normal XB circuit path for player 1 (which can be cut off by PB2) so that the LB relay will still trip at the beginning of the first player's last ball even when more than one person is playing. And, as noted above, the pulse for the LB relay needs to occur when the 1A pulse switch is open, so that the player unit won't be accidently advanced by it.

Yes, the LB trip pulse is very short, but bank relays only need a very short pulse to trip. Many bank relays have a cutoff switch on the relay itself (LB does, in the case shown by Rolf) which means that on a practical level, the trip pulse for that coil is going to be incredibly short in any case. But, from an engineering reliability standpoint, I agree that the LB trip circuit isn't very robust. As I mentioned in post #22, Gottlieb engineering quality standards started to slide in the mid-1970s. The use of continuous-duty relays for the first ball and game over functions are another example of where their standards started to go down, in my opinion.

- TimMe

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