(Topic ID: 325451)

Gottlieb EM Starts Scoring 100's as soon as resets are done

By CaptainNeo

1 year ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 41 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Garrett
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

D schematic markup (resized).jpg
relay orientation mark up (resized).jpg
20221112_143142 (resized).jpg
20221112_143001 (resized).jpg
20221112_134740 (resized).jpg
20221027_180526 (resized).jpg
20221027_180536 (resized).jpg
#1 1 year ago

So i'm working on a 1979 Gottlieb space walk that I can't figure out.

So you start a game. All score reels reset to 0. All drop banks reset. Then the game starts scoring 100's instantly. Just scores 100 points non stop. But all 500 point switches are gapped correctly and back tabs are not touching. Score motor running constantly. Chimes working like normal.

SOLVED: flippers and outhole were not working before. Turns out. Someone soldered the coil lug wire. To the outlane switch. Which blew the 3amp playfield fuse next to the bridge. Now flippers and outhole work during the 500 point scoring frenzy.

No 500 point switches are stuck closed. All drops were taken out of circuit via test. And still scored.

#2 1 year ago

I'm not sure the game is out of reset (flippers dead). Can you describe how the 10 points are being scored? Are you getting 15 X 10 = 150 points per full motor (360 deg) turn? Is the N relay pulling in? Are Player 1 and 2 incrementing or just Player 1?

#3 1 year ago

just player one is advancing. It scores 10 points every half second. So maybe 10 + 10 in one full second. Maybe even 3 a second. It's pretty fast. Score motor never stops. and scores constantly with no breaks in scoring at any moment.

#4 1 year ago

So, if you start with non-zero P1 and P2 scores and start the reset process... do you see P1 reset, then P2 reset, then P1 start incrementing? Or, when P2 is resetting is P1 incrementing also?

Sorry, don't have the schematic, assuming the reset process is like other late 70's machines, like Fire Queen.

#5 1 year ago

when you press the start button.

P1 resets
P2 resets
Drop target banks all reset at the same time

Scoring kicks in, and scores roll in and chimes keep up. P1 only, because it's P1's turn.

#6 1 year ago

Two things to investgate:

1) Can you block the motor switches with paper to determine which switch is powering the motor, or visually see which relay with a motor switch is pulled in? S and AX should power the motor through reset, are they releasing?

2) Flippers are dead, yet chimes work? Is there a rectifier separating the two? Are there any other things receiving power from the rectifier? The pops? Do they work?

I assume the N (10 point relay) is actively toggling, since you hear chimes...

#7 1 year ago

OK, here's a wild ass guess before I give up for the night...

Your rectifier is out (fuse, maybe?)
-explains flippers being dead
-I think, based on IPDB pics of the underside of the playfield, your machine's ball return coil is also powered by the rectifier (it looks like Countdown's ball return coil)

So, you went through reset correctly and the ball is sitting in the outhole trying to get a kick to the shooter lane, but the ball return coil is dead. The O relay is spinning the motor. I think you do have some kind of a short in the 10 point system. 10 points are pulsing at the motor rate because there is a motor 1C switch that interrupts the path to the 10 point switches.

If you remove the ball from the outhole, does the motor stop? Does N lock on? If so, power down immediately, N will start to heat up.

#8 1 year ago

the ball in or out, does not effect the motor stopping or not. I'll investigate the 10 point relay. I think it's in the backbox, but they are unlabeled. I'll look for the one pulsing and assume that's the 10 point one.

-1
#9 1 year ago

Oh look, a hen's tooth!

#10 1 year ago

Schematics

20221027_180526 (resized).jpg20221027_180526 (resized).jpg20221027_180536 (resized).jpg20221027_180536 (resized).jpg
#11 1 year ago

So i investigated yue pulsing relay. Turns out the M relay which doee have a sticker on it. Is the 100 point relay. But counting 10s. Looking at it. The bottom switch doesnt have the ling tab to close the switch. So im fixing that to see what happens next.

20221112_134740 (resized).jpg20221112_134740 (resized).jpg
#12 1 year ago

Wow, some plastic, some cloth wiring... Space Walk really is a hybrid between the EM and SS era...

#13 1 year ago

IPDB has a pic of the open backbox here, and you can make out some of the relay lettering. "M" is the third relay up on the right?

https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2263&picno=38761&zoom=1

Have you double checked that all the jones plugs are oriented and seated correctly, especially the small one (8 pins or so) that comes from the playfield to the backbox?

#14 1 year ago

There isnt any solid state in this. All em. So i fixed that 100 piiny switch. Adjusted and cleaned the 10 point relay and still fires 10s after reset.

#15 1 year ago

Found the relay labels on the back of the relay. So i made stickers.

20221112_143001 (resized).jpg20221112_143001 (resized).jpg
#16 1 year ago

Whole backbox pic

20221112_143142 (resized).jpg20221112_143142 (resized).jpg
#17 1 year ago

If you push in the N relay armature, what happens? Is it possible that the 10's and 100's reels are swapped in the cage? Which reels have circuit cards mounted on the sides?

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

So i investigated yue pulsing relay. Turns out the M relay which doee have a sticker on it. Is the 100 point relay. But counting 10s. Looking at it. The bottom switch doesnt have the ling tab to close the switch. So im fixing that to see what happens next.
[quoted image]

The contacts don't look right. Is the plastic *(Actuator)broken?

Blue arrow- Contact leaf looks to be in the wrong slot
Red Arrow- Is that contact closed.

relay orientation mark up (resized).jpgrelay orientation mark up (resized).jpg
#19 1 year ago

M should have 5 normally open switches. Red arrow looks open from here, but put a slip of paper in it (or adjust it more open). Blue arrow looks like it has slipped a slot or two, a pic from the other side would help.

#20 1 year ago

The bottom one had the closing spring tab broken off. Replaced that switch. And others all open and close correctly. 100s has the 100s sticker on it. If i manually hit them when the game is on, but not scoring. 10s 100s and 1000s all score each digit correctly

#21 1 year ago

What's the history of this machine, was it previously working?

#22 1 year ago

It was working. Then got the cabinet and playfield restored. Then sat at someones house to get a new coin door put on. And during that time. The playfield somehow fell down on the lockdown reciever. And destroyed the counter unit under the playfield. Which i replaced and rebuilt.

#23 1 year ago

OK, good to know, thanks!

Well, unless anyone else has any theories as to how the M (100’s) relay pulsing can result in repeated 10’s being scored, I’d suggest moving on to understanding who is turning the motor, maybe it will be a clue.

From the schematic, the motor switches are: D,E,H,K,O,P, S, W, Motor 1C, and AX.

I assume Motor 1C is not closed, otherwise the motor would start running when the machine is first turned on. During the reset process, S, P then AX are activated. During reset, do these pull in (S, P) and latch (AX) and then release? S and P should release quickly - 1/3 motor turn or two (after the drop target reset), AX should unlatch/reset at the end of the reset process (the Player Unit stops rotating and Player 1 lights up). Is this what happens?

If that is correct and the motor is still running, one of the following is probably closed - D,E,H,K,O or W. Can you see which is pulled in?

#24 1 year ago

Quick question(s)...

KS was the relay with the circuit card that got broken by the lock bar receiver? Is it in a relay rack just above the flippers on the underside of the playfield? If so, what are the two other relays in that rack?

#25 1 year ago

B and C are under the playfield, with rotating counter which is F.

#26 1 year ago

And yes. S and p turn on while reset happens. Then they let go and ax lets go and then the scoring kicks in

#27 1 year ago

Also, the three switches that score 100 points and could potentially be shorted and causing the M pulsing:

Left and right lower return rollover switches
Pop bumper (if set to 5 balls/game)

Also thinking we should also check out the switches that trip D (500 pts), D would also pulse M AND start the motor....

#28 1 year ago

i'll double check those. but all switches were triple checked and gapped correctly. wouldnt' that score 100's then instead of 10s?

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

i'll double check those. but all switches were triple checked and gapped correctly. wouldnt' that score 100's then instead of 10s?

The M relay (100 points) is the relay that is activating though... correct?

#31 1 year ago

Let me re-summarize what we know so far (with 4 embedded questions):

Machine powers up ok
Appears to complete reset
Immediately after reset, on Player 1:
- 10 points continually added to 10 point score reel (with *10* point chime? 10 point relay NOT activating or twitching?)
- motor spinning
- 100 point relay pulsing (at same rate as 10's reel incrementing? No points added to 100 point score reel?)
- Flippers dead
- Ball does not kick out

Is this accurate?

#32 1 year ago

Yes.

10 points scores constantly. 100 point score only advances when 10 points hits the 100 mark. THen the 1000's advances when the 100's reach the 1000 mark and so on. Score reels work like this should when enough 10 points are made.

#33 1 year ago

So anyone else sees this with a similar problem. I totally screwed up which number was scoring. The blank threw me off. Its scoring 100s . not 10s. So somehow a 500 point is stuck. But all 500 point switches are open. All back switch tabs have been inspected as well. Did a test to take the drop targets all out of the circuit. It wasnt them. All lane switches are gapped correctly. And saucer works like it should.

#34 1 year ago

the D relay is stuck powered?

if yes, you can stick paper in contacts in the circuit like 1B and 2B to narrow down which branch is completing the circuit.

if D is not stuck on, then what damoib said in post #23 is probably the most direct route to go. If the motor and scoring is annoying while you are looking around to see what relay/switch is powering the motor, pull out the motor service plug to turn off the motor.

#35 1 year ago

We had a debug session over the phone this afternoon, did the paper in the NC switches, inspected all the NO switches, jones plug. Still stuck on... well, not really stuck - D hold is released by 2B and all triggering switches are conditioned by Motor 1C, so it is pulsing (still warm though).

Disconnected the playfield and D operated normally (racked up the 500) when activated by hand, looks like some issue on the playfield.

I was debating whether to advise to start disconnecting the daisy chain on the playfield and jumpering various isolated portions of the circuit over onto the motor board.

Anyone have an easier way to isolate the issue on the playfield?

#36 1 year ago

Here's a marked up schematic

D schematic markup (resized).jpgD schematic markup (resized).jpg
#37 1 year ago

Just went ahead and opened the daisy chain and isolated the issue to the side rollover... fixed, NVM. On to the next issue...

#38 1 year ago

score motor has now stopped. Game resets like it should.

Next issue, is that the outhole kicker, doesn't have enough power to kick the ball into the shooter lane.

Lugs of the coil have been redone with fresh sections of wire (old ones were black and wouldn't hold solder.

cleaned the O relay.

Cleaned the switches in secion 4 of the score motor.

Still very weak. Brown Slate Slate wire from the coil lug, seem to go to the upper right side of the bridge rectifier. but read .0000 ohms from coil lug to BR. And from BR to score motor switch.

#39 1 year ago

schem says the ball return coil has black and BR-RED wires on it.

one check is to touch a jumper from BR-RED to the 10A fuse in the 25V circuit. That'll be the max power the coil will ever see.

if the ball kicks easily then, you've got a cruddy switch in the circuit limiting current or a switch on the score motor is not staying closed long enough (switch gap too big, switch dog in wrong slot, broken or misshaped switch actuator, etc.)

if jump test doesn't work any better, either the assembly has a mechanical issue or the coil is bad. Typical mechanical issues would be a badly burred coil plunger dragging on the coil sleeve, missing/damaged coil sleeve, or heat-distorted coil/sleeve.

#40 1 year ago

got the outhole fixed. Turned out, the coil that was in there A-18570 was the wrong coil. Someone replaced it and it wasn't enough power. put in a 4893, and now it works like a charm.

#41 1 year ago

How about a few pics please

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
From: $ 4.99
Cabinet - Decals
The Pinball Scientist
 

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-em-starts-scoring-10-s-as-soon-as-resets-are-done and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.