Domino
Gottlieb, 1968Hiya folks. I purchased a Gottlieb domino for 800 Canadian today and am starting to fix a few issues on it. One issue is the 10 points on the score dial is locking on / refusing to rotate. There was a wire that wasn’t connected to the switch which was soldered back on to no results. Here’s some pictures for reference and more can be provided, First pinball machine so don’t be too hard x.x
4D8560F8-7370-4ECB-BB33-EF7398E4BE9B (resized).jpegEAA7F4B4-17C8-41A1-90A2-59AA4EA1C804 (resized).jpeg
Some brief inspection and other stuff. this white wire was hanging off from the ten points as mentioned. When it’s connected to the 10 points dial on the score locks up entirely. When it’s not soldered on and disconnected, the dial acts like it’s trying to turn and doesn’t lock up. But doesn’t fully commit to the spin to the next number, It sure is trying though. Holding it in your hand and doing it Allows it to work sometimes,
Something else I noticed is the other score dials have a gottlieb printed circuit PCB screwed onto them with wires soldered while the ten dial does not
Quoted from Peruman:Do you have a schematic? Domino has several 10-pt scoring switches on the playfield, one of them is probably stuck closed, causing the 10-pt coil to lock up.
For EM debug, having a schematic is key.
Alberto
I do have a Schematic though I’d be lying if I said I understood it entirely. I’m not sure it has anything to do with the 10 point switches though. Touching any of them makes it lock on but when that white wire isn’t put on the 10 point scoring unit. It doesn’t lock up, But it also doesn’t commit to rotating the score...
The switch with the missing white-blue wire is the End Of Stroke (EOS) switch for the Score Reel. When a Score Reel should advance its point relay (10 pt relay in this case) fires and closes a switch that sends power to the Score Reel solenoid. The point relay stays closed until the EOS switch on the corresponding Score Reel opens which cuts power to the point relay, and in turn, the Score Reel solenoid.
The EOS switch is there to make sure that the power to the Score Reel solenoid doesn't cut until the Score Reel plunger has pulled all the way in. It's a feedback mechanism to make sure that just the right amount of power is sent to the Score Reel and no more.
It sounds like your Score Reel plunger isn't able to pull all the way in for some unknown mechanical reason so the EOS switch never opens and the point relay never stops delivering power. Rather than fix the problem someone disconnected the EOS switch so that you only get a brief pulse of energy to the Score Reel while the 10 point target is closed. It can work that way but it's unreliable.
Once you sort out the mechanical issue with the Score Reel reattach the EOS switch and you should be good to go.
/Mark
Quoted from MarkG:The switch with the missing white-blue wire is the End Of Stroke (EOS) switch for the score reel. When a Score Reel should advance its point relay (10 pt relay in this case) fires and closes a switch that sends power to the Score Reel solenoid. The point relay stays closed until the EOS switch on the corresponding Score Reel opens which cuts power to the point relay, and in turn, the Score Reel solenoid.
The EOS switch is there to make sure that the power to the Score Reel solenoid doesn't cut until the Score Reel plunger has pulled all the way in. It's a feedback mechanism to make sure that just the right amount of power is sent to the Score Reel and no more.
It sounds like your Score Reel plunger isn't able to pull all the way in for some unknown mechanical reason so the EOS switch never opens and the point relay never stops delivering power. Rather than fix the problem someone disconnected the EOS switch so that you only get a brief pulse of energy to the Score Reel while the 10 point target is closed. It can work that way but it's unreliable.
Once you sort out the mechanical issue with the Score Reel reattach the EOS switch and you should be good to go.
/Mark
So mechanically it works fine. If I use a screwdriver to manipulate the mechanism to flip manually it works fine. But when the power tries to do it, it’s no luck. I’m looking over the ten point switches now. Will keep updated.
<<I’m not sure it has anything to do with the 10 point switches though. Touching any of them makes it lock on >>
So doesn't sound like the problem is a stuck playfield 10 point switch.
When you push the reel's solenoid plunger in fully with the screwdriver, visually is that EOS switch in your second picture opening up or not? Push only the plunger itself, NOT the metal armature that it is pulling down with it.
If that switch is not opening with a visual gap, the switch just needs a little adjustment.
Quoted from frenchmarky:<<I’m not sure it has anything to do with the 10 point switches though. Touching any of them makes it lock on >>
So doesn't sound like the problem is a stuck playfield 10 point switch.
When you push the reel's solenoid plunger in fully with the screwdriver, visually is that EOS switch in your second picture opening up or not? Push only the plunger itself, NOT the metal armature that it is pulling down with it.
If that switch is not opening with a visual gap, the switch just needs a little adjustment.
Apologies for the late reply but yeah the EOS switch opens up visually fine. The two contacts rest on eachother when the plunger is inactive and opens when the coil is activated.
Wondering if that switch might be shorted internally, the stack appears to be a little askew vs. it's mounting bracket and it has one incorrect nut. If you put a piece of paper between the switch contacts, does it still lock on with the wire attached, and not lock on with the wire removed?
It's a longshot, but I could see where if that was the problem, the only fix the previous person had left after messing with/replacing the switch was to disconnect the switch wire. Switch stack might be missing the little insulator tube(s) that keep the screws from shorting on the blades.
On the PCB boards, not all of the reels are going to have a PCB. They are for the replay thresholds and the Match function.
Quoted from poppapin:Avi, where's John?
He was there but was too busy replying to pinside messages to help. That’s fine though he’s had a busy week. Please don’t bring the John drama in here though, I really want to focus on my machine here.
Quoted from Peruman:Avi, do you have a DMM you can use to measure the resistance across that contact? Visually checking a contact being closed (or open) is not always accurate.
Alberto
Not sure what a DMM is but I’ll assume you mean digital multimeter which I do (and John) have. Won’t be in the workshop till tomorrow to update you on it though.
Took some pictures and a video to post, Will do when I get back home here. Just on the bus.
So. We went from it initially locking on. to 'kind' of working on and off. to it locking on. to it not working (not resetting or anything). to it locking on, To it starting to rotate but it constantly rotating. (look at the video for reference)
And mind you it doesn't have the EOS wire attached to it at the moment. Won't be in the workshop till tomorrow but i'll answer afew things.
Quoted from frenchmarky:Wondering if that switch might be shorted internally, the stack appears to be a little askew vs. it's mounting bracket and it has one incorrect nut. If you put a piece of paper between the switch contacts, does it still lock on with the wire attached, and not lock on with the wire removed?
It's a longshot, but I could see where if that was the problem, the only fix the previous person had left after messing with/replacing the switch was to disconnect the switch wire. Switch stack might be missing the little insulator tube(s) that keep the screws from shorting on the blades.
On the PCB boards, not all of the reels are going to have a PCB. They are for the replay thresholds and the Match function.
I'll be honest i should've tried the paper trick but i was already packed up and ready to go. The contact stack that the blue/white wire was disconnected from is not original to the pinball machine to my knowledge. I looked at every other unit in the wedgehead alone that had a stack and that particular one was the only odd one out. It's possible that it could be the issue and i'll 100% look into replacing it with something closer to the original.
There are many topics here about working through game reset issues. They should be able to offer some helpful background. It's likely that the game is perpetually trying to reset because something has indicated that it still needs resetting. Chances are that it's your Score Reels since you've been working with them.
Each Score Reel has two switches that operate when the reel shows a 0. One opens to prevent any more reset pulses from advancing the Score Reel. The other in your case closes to tell the DB/Reset relay that it has reached zero. Until all four of those switches close (electrically, not just visually) along with the Motor 2B switch in the DB relay circuit the Score Motor will keep running thinking that one of the Score Reels hasn't yet reached 0.
Quoted from MarkG:There are many topics here about working through game reset issues. They should be able to offer some helpful background. It's likely that the game is perpetually trying to reset because something has indicated that it still needs resetting. Chances are that it's your Score Reels since you've been working with them.
Each Score Reel has two switches that operate when the reel shows a 0. One opens to prevent any more reset pulses from advancing the Score Reel. The other in your case closes to tell the DB/Reset relay that it has reached zero. Until all four of those switches close (electrically, not just visually) along with the Motor 2B switch in the DB relay circuit the Score Motor will keep running thinking that one of the Score Reels hasn't yet reached 0.
Yeah me and John have been looking around. Motor doesn’t hold up the game anymore but the reel still isn’t flipping 100%. Sometimes it does, most times it doesn’t. I’m not sure if it’s lack of power or something with the arm restricting it. EOS wire still locks the game so have paper between the two contacts. Back to the drawin board
Quoted from MarkG:There are many topics here about working through game reset issues. They should be able to offer some helpful background. It's likely that the game is perpetually trying to reset because something has indicated that it still needs resetting. Chances are that it's your Score Reels since you've been working with them.
Each Score Reel has two switches that operate when the reel shows a 0. One opens to prevent any more reset pulses from advancing the Score Reel. The other in your case closes to tell the DB/Reset relay that it has reached zero. Until all four of those switches close (electrically, not just visually) along with the Motor 2B switch in the DB relay circuit the Score Motor will keep running thinking that one of the Score Reels hasn't yet reached 0.
Hey Mark
Sorry to interrupt the flow.
Are you still doing those online repair classes?
Quoted from Mr68:Are you still doing those online repair classes?
Last one was Friday December 16
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/an-em-pinball-online-repair-clinic/page/4#post-7287251
So for the reset video, do you have the paper between the contact or not? Seems to be working fine there, fired 10 times in a row successfully (other than the plastic reel needs to be realigned by one digit, take the c-clip off and adjust the position.)
On the second vid are you just hitting a 10 point playfield switch? So even when you hold the 10 point switch on solid, it won't reliably pull in? Could be the 10 point relay switch(es) are dirty/misadjusted, doesn't seem to be reliably ringing the bell either.
Since it doesn't lock on with the paper there, sure sounds like the switch is working but just isn't opening enough even though you said it looked like it had a good gap, maybe try adjusting the small blade back a little bit to make the gap bigger. Make sure the long blade is not shorting against the frame when it pulls in, too.
Quoted from frenchmarky:So for the reset video, do you have the paper between the contact or not? Seems to be working fine there, fired 10 times in a row successfully (other than the plastic reel needs to be realigned by one digit, take the c-clip off and adjust the position.)
On the second vid are you just hitting a 10 point playfield switch? So even when you hold the 10 point switch on solid, it won't reliably pull in? Could be the 10 point relay switch(es) are dirty/misadjusted, doesn't seem to be reliably ringing the bell either.
Since it doesn't lock on with the paper there, sure sounds like the switch is working but just isn't opening enough even though you said it looked like it had a good gap, maybe try adjusting the small blade back a little bit to make the gap bigger. Make sure the long blade is not shorting against the frame when it pulls in, too.
Paper between the EOS switch due to it locking on because of the secondary switch not being hit due to the coil not pulling in reliably. When the second switch is hit the score moves forward and it does not lock. But if it doesn’t pull enough to hit the switch it won’t work and lock on...
So the issue is now that the coil / armature will not pull reliably enough to flip to the next number and hit the second switch. I checked all the coils for resistance and they’re all the same. The spring isn’t the issue I don’t think. I can’t put a much smaller one in it without it forcibly holding it back
I’m not that worried about the bell. I’d like to see the score working reliably before the bell.
Without the paper, it locks on When a 10 point switch is hit due to the secondary switch not being hit. It’ll still reset perfectly fine. With the paper it’ll reset fine (so long as it’s adjusted normally and it won’t lock on but it’s just as unreliable for flipping to the next number
Quoted from Mr68:Are you still doing those online repair classes?
Nice to see you in this corner of the forum Mr68. Yes the online repair clinics are still happening as
HowardR pointed out, every month or so. EM Repair classes too, but not as often.
You could jumper the orange-red wire on the wonky 10 point score reel coil solder lug to another, working score reel coil solder lug. (Like to the brown-red wire on the 100 point score reel coil solder lug for example.) Then hit a 10 point target. The two score reels should fire together since the score reels are sharing the very same pulse.
If you hit a 10 point target and the 100 point score reel advances without a problem you know that the issue is likely in the 10 point score reel and not in the 10 point relay or its switches. On the other hand if you hit a 100 point target and the 10 point score reel works then the issue is likely in the 10 point relay or its switches.
>>Without the paper, it locks on When a 10 point switch is hit due to the secondary switch not being hit.>>
If you get the reel coil to lock on, does pushing down hard on the armature manually with the screwdriver while it's locked on cause the coil to turn off? The paper tests say the switch works but it's acting like it is still not being opened enough by the coil's plunger/armature.
Quoted from MarkG:You could jumper the orange-red wire on the wonky 10 point score reel coil solder lug to another, working score reel coil solder lug. (Like to the brown-red wire on the 100 point score reel coil solder lug for example.) Then hit a 10 point target. The two score reels should fire together since the score reels are sharing the very same pulse.
If you hit a 10 point target and the 100 point score reel advances without a problem you know that the issue is likely in the 10 point score reel and not in the 10 point relay or its switches. On the other hand if you hit a 100 point target and the 10 point score reel works then the issue is likely in the 10 point relay or its switches.
Jumpered the two wires together via your suggestion and it worked! It must be something to do with the relay then? Here’s a reference video
I don't understand what you did. If everything works I'd expect to see two score reels move together.
Quoted from MarkG:I don't understand what you did. If everything works I'd expect to see two score reels move together.
Jumpered the orange and red wire to the brown and red wire on the middle switch. And it works fine despite the tens still not counting for 100 after ten activations.
image (resized).jpgI’d be okay with hotwiring the two parts together since it works properly but now I have to figure out the issue with the 10 10 points not adding 100 onto the score. Probably another relay issue
I see. A little clarification is in order. You've jumpered the Runout switches together on adjacent score reels. That can work but it's not foolproof. Have a look at the schematic:
Domino score reels (resized).jpg
The wires on either side of the Tens Unit Runout switch have the unfortunate wire colors of OR+RED and OR-RED which may seem similar but are completely different. (For wire color details see: https://www.funwithpinball.com/resources/Gottlieb-Wire-Colors). The other score reels have the same problem. Putting your jumpers on the Runout switch requires that you pick the right side of the switch: OR-RED to BR-RED.
If you instead jumper the coil solder lugs together (in the red box above, white box below) there would be no ambiguity:
Domino score reel solder lugs (resized).jpg
Once those two score reel coils are connected (careful not to short to the score reel frame) they should behave the same way since they're receiving the same electrical signals.
Quoted from MarkG:I see. A little clarification is in order. You've jumpered the Runout switches together on adjacent score reels. That can work but it's not foolproof. Have a look at the schematic:
[quoted image]
The wires on either side of the Tens Unit Runout switch have the unfortunate wire colors of OR+RED and OR-RED which may seem similar but are completely different. (For wire color details see: https://www.funwithpinball.com/resources/Gottlieb-Wire-Colors). The other score reels have the same problem. Putting your jumpers on the Runout switch requires that you pick the right side of the switch: OR-RED to BR-RED.
If you instead jumper the coil solder lugs together (in the red box above, white box below) there would be no ambiguity:
[quoted image]
Once those two score reel coils are connected (careful not to short to the score reel frame) they should behave the same way since they're receiving the same electrical signals.
Having the wires jumpered in the way you’re suggesting causes both reels to shoot uncontrollably and continuously. But both reels do activate.
Happy new years everyone. I may be back in the workshop tomorrow or the following day to work more on the domino. Thanks <3
Apologies folks. I'm back in the workshop today working on the domino now. Did a minor adjustment to the ball count unit as it wasn't hitting the rivets properly and fixed a issue.... Getting back to the 10 points unit now. It's flipping perfectly without issue but at the start of each game. It is not resetting to 0. And it isn't advancing ten 10s into one 100. Taking a look at the relays and nothing seems out of the ordinary with anything else on the other relays. But i'm unexperienced with these types of switch setups. Any insight/help would be cool and appreciated!
The reset circuit for the 10 point score reel is in red below:
Domino 10 pt reset (resized).jpg
All three switches need to close to advance the 10 point score reel during reset. Since the other score reels reset you know that the Motor 1A switch is good. The issue is probably with one of the other two.
This is the carry circuit into the 100 point relay:
Domino 10pt carry (resized).jpg
Any time the M/10 point relay fires it will close a switch that will fire the L/100 point relay if the 10 point relay is in the 9th position.
Separate problems but switches on the 10 point score reel could explain both issues. The Runout switch in the first drawing needs to be closed unless the score reel is showing a zero. The 9th position switch in the 2nd drawing should close only when the score reel shows a 9. Both are located at the top back of the score reel. Use the wire colors to identify them. Compare how they work to the same switches on a working score reel.
Quoted from MarkG:The reset circuit for the 10 point score reel is in red below:
[quoted image]
All three switches need to close to advance the 10 point score reel during reset. Since the other score reels reset you know that the Motor 1A switch is good. The issue is probably with one of the other two.
This is the carry circuit into the 100 point relay:
[quoted image]
Any time the M/10 point relay fires it will close a switch that will fire the L/100 point relay if the 10 point relay is in the 9th position.
Separate problems but switches on the 10 point score reel could explain both issues. The Runout switch in the first drawing needs to be closed unless the score reel is showing a zero. The 9th position switch in the 2nd drawing should close only when the score reel shows a 9. Both are located at the top back of the score reel. Use the wire colors to identify them. Compare how they work to the same switches on a working score reel.
Huzzah! The advancing unit is working properly now. ten 10s will advance onto one 100. The score still will not reset on startup unfortunately. But that's one step closer! now to fix the reset on credit issue.
Quoted from MarkG:The reset circuit for the 10 point score reel is in red below:
[quoted image]
All three switches need to close to advance the 10 point score reel during reset. Since the other score reels reset you know that the Motor 1A switch is good. The issue is probably with one of the other two.
This is the carry circuit into the 100 point relay:
[quoted image]
Any time the M/10 point relay fires it will close a switch that will fire the L/100 point relay if the 10 point relay is in the 9th position.
Separate problems but switches on the 10 point score reel could explain both issues. The Runout switch in the first drawing needs to be closed unless the score reel is showing a zero. The 9th position switch in the 2nd drawing should close only when the score reel shows a 9. Both are located at the top back of the score reel. Use the wire colors to identify them. Compare how they work to the same switches on a working score reel.
Back in the workshop today. Got the credit unit working now... Tried jumpering the wires in hopes that the 10 units would reset but it is not. All the relays look fine.. Thank you for the help so far Mark. Will keep pecking away at it.
What happens when you manually close the runout switch on the 10s score reel as Mark diagramed in post #37? It should reset the score reel to 0 if it’s clean and you manually close it. As Mark said, you can identify the switches by wire color in the snippet he posted.
It shows in the diagram he highlighted the wire your looking for to identify the runout switch on the 10s reel is orange with a red tracer.
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:What happens when you manually close the runout switch on the 10s score reel as Mark diagramed in post #37? It should reset the score reel to 0 if it’s clean and you manually close it. As Mark said, you can identify the switches by wire color in the snippet he posted.
It shows in the diagram he highlighted the wire your looking for to identify the runout switch on the 10s reel is orange with a red tracer.
I'll have to look tomorrow. The switches were all cleaned and i personally adjusted them to the specs of the other reels exact. Jumpering does nothing unfortunately, I'm a little afraid to mess more with the switches just because of how far it's gotten so far. Some guy in his garage definitely fucked with the wiring because i've had to redo alot.
Added 74 days ago:This thread can be closed once i figure out how to do so. Domino was fixed up and sold. Thank you for the help Everyone <3
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