(Topic ID: 288725)

Gottlieb Coin Unit issues - Jungle Queen

By BubbaK

3 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 26 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by BubbaK
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

jq side (resized).jpg
PXL_20210228_174621419 (resized).jpg
PXL_20210228_174611661 (resized).jpg
Stepper arm (resized).jpg
PXL_20210228_125019456 (resized).jpg
JQ Bonus (resized).jpg
pasted_image (resized).png
Stp Unit Stop Pin (resized).jpg (© © 2021 Mark Gibson)
Step Unit gear (resized).jpg (© © 2021 Mark Gibson)
cleo coin (resized).jpg
JQ credit unit (resized).jpg
PXL_20210226_003025849 (resized).jpg
PXL_20210226_003110591 (resized).jpg
PXL_20210226_003055497 (resized).jpg

#1 3 years ago

I recently picked up a Jungle Queen thats in rough cosmetic shape. Guy said it worked before he changed the rubbers and now it doesn't. I found out that wasn't true.. I fixed a bunch of things and now I'm having trouble with my coin unit. Something is out of wack and not sure how to correct it. I have a Cleopatra with the same unit and comparing the 2, I can see the difference, but not sure how to correct. This unit has 19 steps from one way to the other. My Cleo has 4. Most times the shoes aren't touching anything. It seems like it is atleast 180 degrees out. I've never taken one apart. The stop pins for the switches are too far apart but the mechanism doesn't spin far enough to get back to the right location. I don't want to dismantle until I know how to put it back together properly. Here are a few pictures..

PXL_20210226_003025849 (resized).jpgPXL_20210226_003025849 (resized).jpgPXL_20210226_003055497 (resized).jpgPXL_20210226_003055497 (resized).jpgPXL_20210226_003110591 (resized).jpgPXL_20210226_003110591 (resized).jpg
#2 3 years ago

In your first photo, you want to make sure that the 3 pivot points that I put arrows pointing to are moving freely. It looks like the top one is not free on yours. Be careful when working on that top pivot - there is a locking nut on the other side of that screw that needs to be (carefully) loosened before you try turning that screw, otherwise it'll likely shear off the screw.

I've had a lot of luck flooding those pivot areas with mineral spirits and working the pieces until they move freely. Clean off the mineral spirits and put a couple drops of light machine oil at those points where you have metal to metal contact.

Everything has to be moving freely before you can troubleshoot anything else.

JQ credit unit (resized).jpgJQ credit unit (resized).jpg

#3 3 years ago

Mineral spirits you say? (smile) All the pivots should definitely be clean and moving freely, including the pivots on the arms themselves. If mineral spirits doesn't free them up, a little dental floss will get into the joints and help free things up.

Once things move freely I think the other problem is that the gear is not in the right place as you suspected. Notice that there are two pins mounted to the gear in your first photo, at about 7 and 10 o'clock. I think the limit switches in the switch stack should be between those two pins. That would imply that the unit was disassembled and reassembled incorrectly.

If you're lucky you might be able to loosen the switch stack and swing it out of the way so you can rotate the gear to its reset position. If you manually activate the reset arm (the vertical arm in your photo) the gear should step backwards under tension from the torsion spring until the stop on the underside of the gear hits the stop mounted to the frame. That will be the reset position. Then I think the pins will be closer to 10 and 2 o'clock and the switch stack should fit between them with the left pin just closing the left or zero position switch.

From the reset position you can manually activate the advance arm (the horizontal arm in your photo). It should take 4 steps until the right pin opens the right switch (upper limit switch) in the stack. There is a missing tooth in the gear to keep it from advancing any further.

Also note that the right switch in the switch stack has a bent long blade that should probably be straight.

Once you've got the gear and switches doing their thing, we'll need to suss out where the wiper board on the other side goes.

/Mark

#4 3 years ago

Yeah, wonder where I got that mineral spirits idea.....? (Thanks - it really works great!)

#5 3 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Mineral spirits you say? (smile) All the pivots should definitely be clean and moving freely, including the pivots on the arms themselves. If mineral spirits doesn't free them up, a little dental floss will get into the joints and help free things up.
Once things move freely I think the other problem is that the gear is not in the right place as you suspected. Notice that there are two pins mounted to the gear in your first photo, at about 7 and 10 o'clock. I think the limit switches in the switch stack should be between those two pins. That would imply that the unit was disassembled and reassembled incorrectly.
If you're lucky you might be able to loosen the switch stack and swing it out of the way so you can rotate the gear to its reset position. If you manually activate the reset arm (the vertical arm in your photo) the gear should step backwards under tension from the torsion spring until the stop on the underside of the gear hits the stop mounted to the frame. That will be the reset position. Then I think the pins will be closer to 10 and 2 o'clock and the switch stack should fit between them with the left pin just closing the left or zero position switch.
From the reset position you can manually activate the advance arm (the horizontal arm in your photo). It should take 4 steps until the right pin opens the right switch (upper limit switch) in the stack. There is a missing tooth in the gear to keep it from advancing any further.
Also note that the right switch in the switch stack has a bent long blade that should probably be straight.
Once you've got the gear and switches doing their thing, we'll need to suss out where the wiper board on the other side goes.
/Mark

I agree with Mark on all points except the bent blade may be correct. I’d fix everything else and see if it steps right with the blade as-is. Unfortunately, I don’t have access to my jungle queen right now or I’d be able to shoot you pics of a properly set up unt. I may be able to dig out my bronco this weekend if you still need it.

So, in summary, clean the pivots, remove one screw on the switch stack and loosen the other, step the unit down so that the rivers line up with the feet on the other side and the switches are between the posts, swing the switch stack into place, and give it a shot.

A 1 player game doesn’t require that stepper to move, so that should be your first test. Then, adding players should get it to step a maximum of 3 times.

Good luck, you’ll get it.

Dave

#6 3 years ago

Thanks guys.. The pivot points on this unit all move freely. I had a few other steppers I had to pull apart and clean up. I do believe someone else already messed with this one before me.. There is oil and grease all over the thing. I've tried cleaning it up as best I can. I'll give the mineral spirits a try to see if I can take of more of the grease on this thing.

MarkG - I thought the same thing about moving the switch stack to get the gear in the correct position. I was able to swing it out of the way, and just as it was coming around, it stopped moving, so it must have hit the missing tooth. Now that I'm thinking, I don't know if I tried going in both directions with the switch stack loose. I also thought maybe someone moved one of the pins since there is another hole in the gear. Doesn't appear to be the case either. I did find one pin on the credit meter in the wrong spot.

As for the switch blades, I believe they are correct as they match my Cleopatra unit. I attached a pic of that unit. I'm going to try to move the switch stack again and try rotating the other way to see if it matters, but my thought is that it shouldn't since the whole thing will rotate 19 times in either direction. My Cleo only rotates 4x in either direction. I'm not sure what stops the gear from rotation. I can see one missing tooth, but what stops the rotation in the other direction? I also noticed a rivet in the gear that doesn't seem to be doing a whole lot. Not sure if that is something for alignment maybe?

cleo coin (resized).jpgcleo coin (resized).jpg
#7 3 years ago

Most of these steppers have two mechanical stops in addition to the limit switches which are essentially electrical stops. If the circuits that use the limit switches stop working properly the mechanical stops prevent the stepper from over or under winding. Here's a closer look at a stepper similar to yours:
Step Unit gear (resized).jpgStep Unit gear (resized).jpg
In the photo above the stepper is at about its reset position. The advance arm is along the bottom and the short arm that swings up from it moves up and down as shown by double ended white arrow. To advance the stepper the advance coil fires and the short arm moves down just enough to grab the next tooth. When the coil relaxes the spring tension on the arm pulls it back up and the gear tooth comes with it, rotating the entire gear one step.

At about 5 o'clock on the gear you can see that a gear tooth is missing. This missing tooth is a mechanical upper limit that prevents the gear from advancing past that position even if the advance coil gets a pulse. The advance arm will swing down and try to grab a tooth but will come up empty so the gear won't advance.

To see the lower mechanical limit you need to look under the gear:
Stp Unit Stop Pin (resized).jpgStp Unit Stop Pin (resized).jpg
Notice that there is a brass colored pin mounted to the underside of the gear. There is also a stop mounted to the frame. When the gear is installed and all the ratchets and levers are moved out of the way the gear can only spin freely until the pin runs into the stop. This is the mechanical lower limit. If the gear is allowed to spin under the power of the torsion spring it will stop in its reset position.

So to get the gear and switches in the right positions relative to each other I'd move the switches, ratchets and levers out of the way and let the gear rotate until it hits the stop underneath the gear. Then put the switches back and see if the stepper only takes a few steps forward until the advance arm encounters the missing gear tooth. I suspect then the switches will roughly match the mechanical limits of the stepper although you may need to fine tune the switches.

For a better look at a stepper in motion have a look at the video at https://www.funwithpinball.com/exhibits/small-boards#CreditUnit and others on that page.

#8 3 years ago

I'm working on a Jungle Queen at home, so I can provide some photos too, if you need them.

#9 3 years ago

MarkG.. Thank you for those pictures and explanation.. Thats exactly what I was looking for. I figured there had to be a positive stop somewhere but couldn't see it. I didn't want to mess with the clock spring if I didn't have to. I'll give that a shot and hopefully get this baby running.

Paulace... thanks for the offer.. I'll let you know if I need anything. Luckily I have a Cleopatra EM as well to compare things to. These 2 are very similar.

#10 3 years ago

Well, that did it. The clock spring was even on the wrong side of the post. I was able to get it to lift high enough to clear the one post and now that works as it should.

I think the next problem I have is the ball drain switch. When the ball drains, nothing happens. The trough switch works and advances the ball count. I have to manually shoot the ball through the trough. When I manually hit the ball return relay, the solenoid fires, but the switch isn't doing it by itself. The contacts on the relay look good. I haven't looked too far into that yet. I did clean and set up the AX relay properly. I haven't looked into the rest of the circuit yet.

The guy I got the machine from told me it was on free play when he got it. The credit wheel 2nd switch isn't closed, so not sure what else may have been done. The coin switches look proper. The game is still on free play. The coin door lockout relay is disconnected. What other methods are used to put on free play? I want to get it back to coin op to make sure everything is right.

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

When the ball drains, nothing happens

If none of the following is happening, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156

When the ball drains,
1) The Ball Return switch should activate the Bonus Score relay (K)
2) The Bonus should award and count down
3) The Ball Return relay (O) should activate
4) The Ball Return solenoid coil should activate, kicking the ball across

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#12 3 years ago

Thanks HowardR.. I went through the score motor last night and cleaned and check contacts, but haven't looked at the bonus relay closely.. I don't think I get a bonus countdown. I'm pretty sure up to motor 1c is good since the start relay works. I overlooked that since when I manually shoot the ball across the trough switch it changes the ball in play. Game over doesn't end the game either..

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from paulace:

I'm working on a Jungle Queen at home, so I can provide some photos too, if you need them.

Paulace - Same thing here if you need it..

#14 3 years ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

bonus relay closely.. I don't think I get a bonus countdown. I'm pretty sure up to motor 1c is good since the start relay works.

Take a real good look at the '0' pos. Bonus unit sw., from all angles. Sometimes things are a bit hidden; and don't trust a visual for confirmation that solid contact is being made.

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Take a real good look at the '0' pos. Bonus unit sw., from all angles. Sometimes things are a bit hidden; and don't trust a visual for confirmation that solid contact is being made.

I looked at it a few times.. After the 4th time, I noticed a switch closed that wasn't opening.. That didn't fix it either though.. There is something funky with this stepper also.. I compared it to my Cleopatra stepper and it rotating the opposite direction and it looks like a lever is missing.. I didn't get much time on it today. I'll post some pics tomorrow when I get more time to look at it.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Mineral spirits you say? (smile) All the pivots should definitely be clean and moving freely, including the pivots on the arms themselves. If mineral spirits doesn't free them up, a little dental floss will get into the joints and help free things up.
Once things move freely I think the other problem is that the gear is not in the right place as you suspected. Notice that there are two pins mounted to the gear in your first photo, at about 7 and 10 o'clock. I think the limit switches in the switch stack should be between those two pins. That would imply that the unit was disassembled and reassembled incorrectly.
If you're lucky you might be able to loosen the switch stack and swing it out of the way so you can rotate the gear to its reset position. If you manually activate the reset arm (the vertical arm in your photo) the gear should step backwards under tension from the torsion spring until the stop on the underside of the gear hits the stop mounted to the frame. That will be the reset position. Then I think the pins will be closer to 10 and 2 o'clock and the switch stack should fit between them with the left pin just closing the left or zero position switch.
From the reset position you can manually activate the advance arm (the horizontal arm in your photo). It should take 4 steps until the right pin opens the right switch (upper limit switch) in the stack. There is a missing tooth in the gear to keep it from advancing any further.
Also note that the right switch in the switch stack has a bent long blade that should probably be straight.
Once you've got the gear and switches doing their thing, we'll need to suss out where the wiper board on the other side goes.
/Mark

I've used mineral spirits. But dental floss? That's brilliant. Been fixing EMs for 10+ years and never heard or thought of that trick. I gotta stop wasting so much time on my damn SS pins and spend more time in this forum.

#17 3 years ago

Not sure whats going on with my computer this morning, but I'm not able to draw on these 2 pictures for some reason.. 1st pic is the bonus unit in Jungle Queen. It rotates CW. 2nd pic is of Cleopatra. It rotates CCW. Cleo also has an extra arm and spring that JQ doesn't have. The gear teeth are going the same direction. The clock springs are wound opposite and the switch stack is opposite. After seeing the coin unit being messed up, I want to make sure this one isn't completely messed up as well.

JQ Bonus (resized).jpgJQ Bonus (resized).jpgPXL_20210228_125019456 (resized).jpgPXL_20210228_125019456 (resized).jpg
#18 3 years ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

1st pic is the bonus unit in Jungle Queen. It rotates CW.
The clock springs are wound opposite

I think both steppers are intended to rotate in both directions. For clarity, the solenoid/plunger/advance arm on the same side of the frame as the gear should rotate the gear in one direction (CCW looking down at the gear) by grabbing the next tooth and pushing it in the CCW direction. In this case the gear moves under spring tension of the long straight spring on the end of the advance arm.

The other solenoid/plunger/reset arm combination if present releases the advance arm and allows the torsion spring to turn the gear either one step CW or all the way CW back to its reset position, depending on the configuration of the reset arms. In this case the gear moves under spring tension from the torsion spring. The solenoids only ever move the arms, not the gear.

In any event the torsion spring should be wound around the gear shaft to make the gear want to turn CW. Or in other words, the advance arm should be winding the torsion spring tighter and the reset arm should allow it to unwind to some degree.

If your advance arm causes the gear to rotate CW it may be because the short arm in the red box isn't rotating freely:
Stepper arm (resized).jpgStepper arm (resized).jpg
That arm is spring loaded and should drop between the gear teeth to prevent the gear from rotating CW whenever the advance arm pulls back to grab the next tooth.

BTW, your Cleopatra photo shows a sling shot (?) coil with a diode across it. Does it use DC for some solenoids?

#19 3 years ago

Thanks MarkG. The bonus mechanism does appear to be functioning in both directions and the gear lock levers are doing their job. I thought it was strange that to get to the zero position on JQ, the gear rotates CW. To get to the zero position on Cleo, the gear rotates CCW. After looking closely at the linkage on both, there are some different linkage pieces. I guess this mechanism is working as it should.

As for Cleo, yes, it has a rectifier and runs DC to the flippers, pop bumpers and slingshots. All else are AC.

#20 3 years ago

Well, I finally got it working.. Still not sure exactly why the ball drain wasn't working, but I did fix it. Ultimately, it must have had something do with the circuit that HowardR posted, but all those switches were good. One of the other issues the game had was it was on freeplay and I couldn't figure out what was doing it. Rather than close switch 2 on the credit meter, someone sort of twisted the 2 wires together at the end of the switch. I'm still not sure why that caused the issue because it looks to do the same as closing the switch. Once I untwisted the wires, the game works fine. I don't usually use freeplay anyway. Thanks for everyone's help on this.. I definitely learned a lot, which is why I really picked up this machine.

Now I need some advice on how far to take this machine.. The playfield is in rough shape. I'm not afraid to do anything mechanical or electrical. I have zero artistic ability so I will not even attempt to do paint work. The plastic inserts are all cupped, but from the games I've played on it so far doesn't seem to matter much. The game probably needs about 50 hours of cleaning (exaggerated a bit, but its filthy). There is a playfield protector available for the game, so I can use that to get a smooth surface. I've only been into pins for a few years and haven't played many or followed values. Is it worth putting a few hundred bucks into this machine? I'm not into it a lot at this point.

PXL_20210228_174611661 (resized).jpgPXL_20210228_174611661 (resized).jpgPXL_20210228_174621419 (resized).jpgPXL_20210228_174621419 (resized).jpg
#21 3 years ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

Now I need some advice on how far to take this machine.. The playfield is in rough shape. I'm not afraid to do anything mechanical or electrical. I have zero artistic ability so I will not even attempt to do paint work.

I don't do restorations, mainly because it doesn't really interest me, but also because I like the character and stories that vintage machines, in their unrestored states, bring. I like figuring out the mechanical/electrical puzzles to get 'em going, but once that's done and I've done some clean up, I just want to play. BUT, that lower PF is a wreck and I would consider looking for one to swap in.

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

I don't do restorations, mainly because it doesn't really interest me, but also because I like the character and stories that vintage machines, in their unrestored states, bring. I like figuring out the mechanical/electrical puzzles to get 'em going, but once that's done and I've done some clean up, I just want to play. BUT, that lower PF is a wreck and I would consider looking for one to swap in.

I am the same way.The guy I bought it from thought I was crazy when I saw the side of the backbox and thought it was cool.. I think I'm going to give everything a good cleaning, replace all the lights. Even the back of the plastic inserts are black. Drop target banks are horrible. Once I'm done with that, I may just get a playfield protector. I put one on my Cleopatra and have been extremely happy with it. Cleo wasn't nearly as bad as this one.

jq side (resized).jpgjq side (resized).jpg
#23 3 years ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

The guy I bought it from thought I was crazy when I saw the side of the backbox and thought it was cool.

Looks fine to me!!

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Looks fine to me!!

Me too! I have "WEED" (multiple), "ELVIS", "BOWIE" and some unachievable scores scratched into my Abra Ca Dabra...

#25 3 years ago

This is the first one that I've had thats been carved up a bit.. I had a few arcades that were carved.. If I end up keeping this one for awhile, which I probably will, the carvings will be visible from where it will be in the line.. I remember doing that stuff..

#26 3 years ago

So I've been playing the heck out of this game to see if its a keeper or not.. I really like it. The 4 flippers is interesting. I'm definitely putting the time to clean it up good and tune it up.

I did have another issue pop up while playing. I tilted the game and for the next ball, the game played normal, but after ball 5 it didn't completely reset. It kicked out another ball and continued to play. The ball in play light was out so it started to end game. I shut it off and turned it back on and it reset properly and played a few games. The same thing happened again, minus the tilt. Ball 5 finished and the game continued without a ball in play light. I didn't look at the schematics yet. I also had one drop target bank not reset properly for 2 balls. It started to reset but stopped. I know they are filthy so that may be fixed with a good clean.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 12.00
Tools
Nezzy's Pinball Prints
Tools
From: $ 12.99
Cabinet - Other
The Pinball Scientist
Other
$ 5.95
Playfield - Protection
The Pinball Scientist
Protection
From: $ 5.95
Playfield - Protection
The Pinball Scientist
Protection
From: $ 4.99
Cabinet - Decals
The Pinball Scientist
Decals
$ 15.00
Lighting
Space Coast Pinball
Lighting
Great pinball charity
Pinball Edu

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-coin-unit-issues-jungle-queen?hl=currieddog and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.