Cleopatra EM
Gottlieb, 1977I've had a nagging issue with my Cleo and was hoping to get a few pics of the sore motor switch stacks 1C-4C and especially 2B. This Cleo has over 130,000 plays on it. I'm trying to verify the switch stack activators are correct. The score motor has an issue trying to reach home position. Sometimes it does, other times it does not. When this occurs 1C and 2B are open at the same time and then the motor is hung up, in limbo.
Thanks.
This timing is standard across most 60's/70's Gottlieb EMs... Motor 1C should use the "S" position switch dog, Motor 2B uses a A-786 formed switch blade AND the first 2B switch pair is mounted on the INSIDE (closer to the motor) of the switch bracket, 2nd pair on the outside (closer to cabinet wall).
Formed switch blades 2B marked (resized).jpgQuoted from DaMoib:This timing is standard across most 60's/70's Gottlieb EMs... Motor 1C should use the "S" position switch dog, Motor 2B uses a A-786 formed switch blade AND the first 2B switch pair is mounted on the INSIDE (closer to the motor) of the switch bracket, 2nd pair on the outside (closer to cabinet wall).
[quoted image]
Thank you DaMoib. I do have the proper dog on the 2B then.
I'll look through it again this evening.
Cleo 2B (resized).jpg
Also check your Motor 1C stop position - how far is the switch dog into the notch? Compare to the attached pic.
When I move my motor cam by hand very slowly, there is a point that the Motor 1C switch dog drops into the notch (opening the inside switch - the motor runout switch) and the 2B switches are still open. However, in normal operation (powered), the motor drifts to a stop with the 1C switch dog further into the notch and the 2B switches are closed.
Motor rest position (resized).jpeg
Quoted from DaMoib:Also check your Motor 1C stop position - how far is the switch dog into the notch? Compare to the attached pic.
When I move my motor cam by hand very slowly, there is a point that the Motor 1C switch dog drops into the notch (opening the inside switch - the motor runout switch) and the 2B switches are still open. However, in normal operation (powered), the motor drifts to a stop with the 1C switch dog further into the notch and the 2B switches are closed.
[quoted image]
One thing I forget to mention. The playfield is out for clear coat. I get through the start up sequence up to start up step 10. Next it’s looking for the outhole.
The picture is where the score motor stops after start up without the playfield plugged in.
1E9B084C-9C50-4F90-9CF0-9BA090D129BA (resized).jpegHmmm.... is power on and Motor 1C inside switch (with a YEL+RED wire on it) closed in that pic? If so, the motor should run until 1C falls into the notch. The only other switch in that circuit is the motor board bounce switch (NC). There are no other dependencies (head, playfield).
If you power off the machine, rotate the cam until the Motor 1C switch dog is out of the notch and then power up the machine, the motor should rotate until M 1C drops back into the notch.
Quoted from DaMoib:Motor 2B uses a A-786 formed switch blade AND the first 2B switch pair is mounted on the INSIDE (closer to the motor) of the switch bracket, 2nd pair on the outside (closer to cabinet wall).
Interesting. Are the switch blade forms and locations documented anywhere?
/Mark
Quoted from MarkG:Interesting. Are the switch blade forms and locations documented anywhere?
/Mark
This pin did not come with the manual. I have a schematic but that's it. I'll order a manual next week as I still need a couple more parts.
Got the game 10 years ago and this problem was present but quite intermittent over the years. Now that I've torn it down and re-assembled the issue is fairly consistent and that's a good thing, just need to find out why.
I'll try to dig into it again tonight. Have a couple weeks of drying time before I can re-populate the playfield.
As always, I appreicate your help DaMoib.
Quoted from MarkG:Interesting. Are the switch blade forms and locations documented anywhere?
/Mark
Yes, formed blades on page 61 in the '78 parts catalog, "Motor Switch Assemblies". I double checked on Bank A Ball and "300" to make sure.
Location (straddling the switch bracket) just based on observation.
I can take some pictures of my score motor if you need it. It seems as though they should all be the same from this era. I looked through the pictures I have of my machine and don't have any of the score motor for some reason..
Quoted from Garrett:hoping to get a few pics of the sore motor switch stacks 1C-4C and especially 2B
Is the cardboard printed picture of the motor still stapled inside the cabinet near the motor?
Quoted from DaMoib:Yes, formed blades on page 61 in the '78 parts catalog, "Motor Switch Assemblies". Location (straddling the switch bracket) just based on observation.
I've never really dug into this table.
Gottlieb 1978 Catalog pg 61 (resized).jpg
So the last column for example shows that motor position 2B always uses an A-786 formed follower blade as you showed above. The rest of the column shows what switch combinations (A: normally open, B: normally closed, C: make/break) are available as assembled parts. The right four columns show that all of the pin following positions (on levels B, D and E) used some kind of formed blade.
Does the dash (e.g. B-8309 B-AB) indicate which side of the motor frame the switches are mounted to?
Do the first three columns imply that the cam following positions (on levels A and C) didn't use any of the formed blades?
How was the last formed switch blade shown earlier (A-9349) used? Is that a brake?
Quoted from MarkG:Do the first three columns imply that the cam following positions (on levels A and C) didn't use any of the formed blades?
Upon further inspection the cam following switch positions on levels A and C used switch switch dogs (in the S or L position) and not formed switch blades:
Gottlieb 1978 Catalog pg 69 (resized).jpg
How much lash should there be in the motor? I don’t have another Gottlieb right now to compare to.
I’ve readjusted the dog and stack at 2B as much as possible but once every 2-5 game starts it won’t fully complete the rotation as pictured previously.
It's the Motor 1C switch that should stop the motor, is it open or closed when the motor stops early? If it looks closed, power down and verify with a meter.
Is the Motor 1C switch clean and adjusted properly? Motor 1C should open as the switch dog drops into the notch.
You should also jumper your motor board bounce switch closed when testing, it *might* be causing the issue. I use gloves when dealing with this switch and the testing below - if your side rail is somehow grounded, you can get a shock by leaning over the rail and touching stuff on the motor board, especially that bounce switch!
A word about quickly testing this - you don’t need to start a game. With the machine powered up, slowly rotate the motor cam until the Motor 1C switch dog lifts out of the notch. The motor should start, turn 120 degrees and shut itself off with the dog in the next notch.
Quoted from DaMoib:A word about quickly testing this - you don’t need to start a game. With the machine powered up, slowly rotate the motor cam until the Motor 1C switch dog lifts out of the notch. The motor should start, turn 120 degrees and shut itself off with the dog in the next notch.
DaMoib, with the game powered on the score motor does not start when rotating by hand to jog itself to home position. I'll look at that first thing later this evening.
Was final sanding the clearcoat on the playfield last night and didn't get too much time to look at this issue.
This pin is set to free play. I do not know if this is related but when starting a game by closing the 1st coin chute contacts on the coin door the game will start (if the score motor is in the right position due to previous issue). But when I press the 2nd coin chute contatcs together it chatters the 2nd coin chute relay very hard and loud (arcing can be seen on the rleay contacts) and the motor turns slightly then stops. The 2nd coin chute is set to 1 credit 1 game and this pin also has the DY(?) AS style relay to set the 1-5 games per credit (?). None of the contatcts are touching the coin door for the chutes. I can snap or sketch a picture of that circuit later if needed.
BubbaK, with that hardtop on your Cleo must play insanely fast. I am so looking forward to playing this pin again and nervous about it breaking shit. When I first got this game and got it running, in just two or three games it obliterated two of the drop targets and chipped a bumper skirt, the original plastic was too brittle. Before I tore it down this time, two of the pop bumber skirts once again had chipped edges. It is violent 
Quoted from Garrett:DaMoib, with the game powered on the score motor does not start when rotating by hand to jog itself to home position. I'll look at that first thing later this evening.
Was final sanding the clearcoat on the playfield last night and didn't get too much time to look at this issue.
This pin is set to free play. I do not know if this is related but when starting a game by closing the 1st coin chute contacts on the coin door the game will start (if the score motor is in the right position due to previous issue). But when I press the 2nd coin chute contatcs together it chatters the 2nd coin chute relay very hard and loud (arcing can be seen on the rleay contacts) and the motor turns slightly then stops. The 2nd coin chute is set to 1 credit 1 game and this pin also has the DY(?) AS style relay to set the 1-5 games per credit (?). None of the contatcts are touching the coin door for the chutes. I can snap or sketch a picture of that circuit later if needed.
BubbaK, with that hardtop on your Cleo must play insanely fast. I am so looking forward to playing this pin again and nervous about it breaking shit. When I first got this game and got it running, in just two or three games it obliterated two of the drop targets and chipped a bumper skirt, the original plastic was too brittle. Before I tore it down this time, two of the pop bumber skirts once again had chipped edges. It is violent
The protector made a huge difference on the game. I haven't broken any targets or plastics, but it does play fast. My inserts are horribly sunk in, so the center playfield was like a bagatelle game. Thats where I noticed the biggest difference with the protector. I've had it on for a few years, so don't really remember what it was like before it. This was my first machine I ever worked on or really played more than a few times. When I first got the machine, my repair skill level was no where near what this game needed to play well. By putting the playfield protector on, it made the game play great and I was able to preserve the machine so that when my skill level reached what the machine needed, I could handle it. I'm getting close enough to be able to do the playfield justice and after watching what you did, I'm starting to get the itch. I've got a few more projects to complete, then I may give it another shot.
Quoted from BubbaK:The protector made a huge difference on the game. I haven't broken any targets or plastics, but it does play fast. My inserts are horribly sunk in, so the center playfield was like a bagatelle game. Thats where I noticed the biggest difference with the protector. I've had it on for a few years, so don't really remember what it was like before it. This was my first machine I ever worked on or really played more than a few times. When I first got the machine, my repair skill level was no where near what this game needed to play well. By putting the playfield protector on, it made the game play great and I was able to preserve the machine so that when my skill level reached what the machine needed, I could handle it. I'm getting close enough to be able to do the playfield justice and after watching what you did, I'm starting to get the itch. I've got a few more projects to complete, then I may give it another shot.
Like many, I used Vids guide and read a lot of threads. That's where I first saw mrm_4's work and was inspired by him and so many others.
Nothing compares to just doing it. You will make mistakes and it will not come out perfect the first time. But it will be a hell of a lot better than it was. I hated touch up painting the Cleo bonus area, extremely time consuming. Done it twice now and don't think I could handle touching up that playfield again.
I'm glad I did the Aztec first. I learned a great deal from my mistakes. Get a cheap title $500 pin if you can to practice on or a decent shape playfield to pratice on first. Another idea would be a small piece of wood with a planed or very flat surface similar to a pinball playfield. Then take a ball peen hammer and put 10 or hits or so into it to replicate sunken inserts. Then take a screw driver blade and phillips head and put some imprints on the surface, not too deep. Spray a thin coat of paint on it. Then start clear coating and filling. You can get an understanding how much shrink tends to occur and how much to overfill vs too much over fill. Then sand it out flat. Try not to sand into the paint.
Auto clear is the preferred method and I am looking forward to the day when I have that set up. But I'm improving my application method with water based varathane and the Cleo came out far, far better than the Aztec. And it took less overall time the second time around. Eyeballing the Olympic Hockey when the Cleo is wrapped up. Unless a 4 Million sneeks in first
Take the plunge 
I agree with jumping in and figuring it out, and thats how I've been able to get to where I am. Cleo is more than a game to me, its got sentimental value as well. I'd rather it be preserved and playing than have it look like a 3rd grader tried to finger paint the bonus area. I'm at a point now where I routinely pop out inserts to level and touching up paint. I just tried my first waterslide decal on an insert, so I'm curious as to how it will hold up. I'm planning on all new inserts when I tackle Cleo and want to experiment on how to make the inserts.
Quoted from BubbaK:I agree with jumping in and figuring it out, and thats how I've been able to get to where I am. Cleo is more than a game to me, its got sentimental value as well. I'd rather it be preserved and playing than have it look like a 3rd grader tried to finger paint the bonus area. I'm at a point now where I routinely pop out inserts to level and touching up paint. I just tried my first waterslide decal on an insert, so I'm curious as to how it will hold up. I'm planning on all new inserts when I tackle Cleo and want to experiment on how to make the inserts.
Several guys use decals with great results.
Also interested the windshield resin and UV light but haven't tried that yet. Yeah, good ole' cupped inserts drive me nuts too.
Quoted from DaMoib:You should also jumper your motor board bounce switch closed when testing, it *might* be causing the issue. I use gloves when dealing with this switch and the testing below - if your side rail is somehow grounded, you can get a shock by leaning over the rail and touching stuff on the motor board, especially that bounce switch!
A word about quickly testing this - you don’t need to start a game. With the machine powered up, slowly rotate the motor cam until the Motor 1C switch dog lifts out of the notch. The motor should start, turn 120 degrees and shut itself off with the dog in the next notch.
Looked fine visually, pushed with the tip of a screw driver. Broken wire at 1C. I’ll let you know once fixed.
Quoted from BubbaK:Glad you got it worked out. I finally opened my Cleo this morning. I don't have a motor card stapled to the cabinet. I don't even see staple marks where one would have been.
Good to know. Mine does not have any staple marks either. Must be stated in the user manual. Thanks for checking!
Yes, a Motor Switch table is in most Gottlieb manuals. Look in this thread for an example, post 4
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/score-motor-schematics-help
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Pinckney, MI