(Topic ID: 315745)

Gottlieb Caveman Issues

By Snowtrooper

1 year ago



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#1 1 year ago

Reaching out for some troubleshooting assistance with my newly acquired Gottlieb Caveman pinball machine. This game was operational, with some small sound issues, and the seller recorded a video of the game in action. However, after performing bulletproofing and recommended ground modifications, the game will not boot up and play. Before going any further, the following were performed:

• All solid state boards are original style (no upgraded aftermarket boards).

• Installed a new coil cell battery board, with blocking diode, onto the MPU board.

• Recommended ground modifications were installed to all boards.

• Original orange capacitors were replaced with 12,000 mfd @ 25V radial snap capacitors (from Marco’s Specialties).

• All single side connectors were repinned, including the A23-J2 connector at the I / O board.

• Installed the updated Caveman Evolutions eeprom (designed by Davroux Brothers).

• All fuses checked and good.

When the pinball was first energized, the displays all illuminated, but most of the playfield lights ( not all ) locked on
and there is NO attract mode. The test mode cannot be activated nor can any credits be added. All the while the video is in GERMAN attract mode. All the tilt (pendulum/ ball roll / playfield side to side all normally open) and the slam switch (normally closed) were in correct position. After being powered up and performing various tests, now the displays DO NOT illuminate and different lighting stays locked on, and still CANNOT get a game started. I even tried swapping out a working Swemmer MPU board, but the results were the same (with no changes), so the problem lies in the game.

I scoured and searched the internet and YouTube for information and answers, but only found a little information. Can anyone provide any insight, or point me in the right direction as to where to start troubleshooting this game? I really do not know where to start. Thanks for your help.

#2 1 year ago
Quoted from Snowtrooper:

Recommended ground modifications were installed to all boards.

Something might not be right here. Like you say, a new mpu would've ruled out an MPU problem.

Did you do anything with the grounding strip near the transformer, or did you leave that alone?

Where did you attach each end of each board's ground wires?

Quoted from Snowtrooper:

there is NO attract mode. The test mode cannot be activated nor can any credits be added.

What do the score and credit displays show on boot attempts?

Quoted from Snowtrooper:

Original orange capacitors were replaced with 12,000 mfd @ 25V radial snap capacitors

Have you double checked the polarity? On older caps, sometimes they indicate +. On newer caps, they indicate -.

Quoted from Snowtrooper:

All single side connectors were repinned, including the A23-J2 connector at the I / O board.

Can you verify that all the wires are in the correct positions? They should be listed in the manual.

Quoted from Snowtrooper:

Installed the updated Caveman Evolutions eeprom (designed by Davroux Brothers).

Can you swap in the stock ROM for now?

Quoted from Snowtrooper:

Can anyone provide any insight, or point me in the right direction as to where to start troubleshooting this game? I really do not know where to start. Thanks for your help.

Did you do any testing between each change you made, or did you do them basically all at once?

This is likely going to be a more general system 80A issue, rather than something specific just to caveman.

#3 1 year ago

You're in luck. I have been working on getting my Caveman up and running the past few weeks, and I think I can help you.

First of all, like ForceFlow pointed out, it is best to make changes to a game one at a time to make sure you don't mess something up between steps.

As for your boot problem, take a look at this post: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/caveman-no-pop-bumpers-are-working-where-to-start#post-4504524

The MPU in caveman won't complete it's boot cycle if it cannot communicate with the video card. The default language for the video board is German, and if the video board is not receiving input from the MPU via the lamp drivers, it will display German. So I would start by double checking the connection work you did at the MPU related to the lamp outputs. If those look fine, I would trace the lamp output wires from the mpu to the video card.

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Did you do anything with the grounding strip near the transformer, or did you leave that alone?
Where did you attach each end of each board's ground wires?

I attached a separate ground line from all the new grounds added (tied / connected together) as per recommended modifications. The exact procedures and “new” ground wires were following all documentation found online (Wikipedia, TOP, etc.)

Quoted from ForceFlow:

What do the score and credit displays show on boot attempts?

At the first startup, I was showing a high score and then 0000000. Now since it won’t even boot, I have nothing.

Quoted from ForceFlow:

Have you double checked the polarity? On older caps, sometimes they indicate +. On newer caps, they indicate -.

The green ground wire was connected to the new capacitor (-) terminal, and the three (3) color stripe wire was connected to (+) side on >>> for both capacitors.

Quoted from ForceFlow:

Can you verify that all the wires are in the correct positions? They should be listed in the manual.

All wires were repinned, one at a time, and special attention was made to place the wire back to exact location it was removed.

Quoted from ForceFlow:

Can you swap in the stock ROM for now?

The original ROM, that came with the game, was reinstalled. There was no change

UPDATE:

After reading information provided by Uncivil Engineer, I went back and checked the A23-J2 connector (at the I / O board) and found it was backwards. I ensured the edge connectors were clean (used a fiberglass eraser pen and then wiped off with Q-tip with 91% alcohol).

I thought I may have dodged a bullet and catch a break, but after correcting the position (so now the pins are against the edge connectors), I now have coils locking up and humming coming from the speakers. And of course, no change from the German script and will NOT boot / coin up / test mode. I can only assume transistors were fried on the driver board, this causing the coils locking up now at start up. Cannot understand what is going on. All I did was recommended bulletproofing, as I would do with any of my other System 80 games.

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

You're in luck. I have been working on getting my Caveman up and running the past few weeks, and I think I can help you.
First of all, like ForceFlow pointed out, it is best to make changes to a game one at a time to make sure you don't mess something up between steps.
As for your boot problem, take a look at this post: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/caveman-no-pop-bumpers-are-working-where-to-start#post-4504524
The MPU in caveman won't complete it's boot cycle if it cannot communicate with the video card. The default language for the video board is German, and if the video board is not receiving input from the MPU via the lamp drivers, it will display German. So I would start by double checking the connection work you did at the MPU related to the lamp outputs. If those look fine, I would trace the lamp output wires from the mpu to the video card.

Thank you for that GREAT link which contains a great explanation on the “sequence of operation”.

#6 1 year ago

It sounds like your MPU is still not booting. It’s common for system 80 machines to momentarily pull in their coils on boot (sometimes called the system 80 ‘clunk’). I’d try to get it to cleanly boot before worrying about drive transistors. If it’s constantly pulling in, pull the coil fuses (they are under the playfield). Don’t worry about the hum, I noticed that of all my system 80s, caveman hums the worst.

I’d start going through the MPU boot issues of Pinwiki to eliminate issues with your MPU. I can give you a trick to test if your reset section is working or not. Pin 40 of the main 6502 processor is the reset line. This is supposed to be held low for about a half second when the power comes on then it goes high and the MPU starts executing its program. If the MPU starts too soon because of a bad reset section it won’t boot. You can force the MPU to restart by taking a jumper wire tied to the ground reference and touch it very briefly to pin 40 of the 6502. If the game then boots up you have a bad reset section.

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

It sounds like your MPU is still not booting. It’s common for system 80 machines to momentarily pull in their coils on boot (sometimes called the system 80 ‘clunk’). I’d try to get it to cleanly boot before worrying about drive transistors. If it’s constantly pulling in, pull the coil fuses (they are under the playfield). Don’t worry about the hum, I noticed that of all my system 80s, caveman hums the worst.
I’d start going through the MPU boot issues of Pinwiki to eliminate issues with your MPU. I can give you a trick to test if your reset section is working or not. Pin 40 of the main 6502 processor is the reset line. This is supposed to be held low for about a half second when the power comes on then it goes high and the MPU starts executing its program. If the MPU starts too soon because of a bad reset section it won’t boot. You can force the MPU to restart by taking a jumper wire tied to the ground reference and touch it very briefly to pin 40 of the 6502. If the game then boots up you have a bad reset section.

Being the Caveman pinball machine is “different” and unique to all other System 80 and 80A games, are the recommended ground mods causing issues?

The fact that the game was operational before it was disassembled and transported to the pick up point (Pinfest), and now having all the these issues boggles me. Again all I did was recommended bulletproofing and ground mods to strengthen the game.

#8 1 year ago

I don't think the ground mod is causing your issue. It's more likely that you have some issue with the re-pinning you did. Something is not making a connection to the video box causing the boot cycle to not complete.

Moving old games always runs the risk of something not working when you set it up again. I have moved more than one game only to have something shift during the move that caused it to not work at the new location. This weekend I am going to be moving all my games to a new house, and its almost certain at least one will not work after they are setup in their new location.

#9 1 year ago

Went back to the beginning and the basics, and started troubleshooting from power supply and continued moving forward.

Power supply is good:
5 volts
8.48 volts
50 volts
68 volts

Connected the power supply to the CPU, checked pin 40 on the main U1 CPU chip and only had 3.8 volts. Had to adjust the 5 volt trim pot to increase it, giving 4.5 volts to reset section. The MPU - Driver board harness is removed for this testing, and A1-J5 connector is in place (for slam switch).

Plugged in the display plug on power supply. Now the displays are energized and performing normal operation (flashing between 0000000 and a “high score”). With the A1-J5 connector in place, this shows the slam switch is good and the reset section is working.

Some small steps, but heading into the right direction. The script is still in German, so I need to check the communication / wiring to I / O board at the video card cage.

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