(Topic ID: 269343)

Gottlieb Card Whiz Problems

By MiloMV

3 years ago


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  • 66 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by sudsy7
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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J Relay (resized).jpg
I Relay Circuit (resized).jpg
CardWhizASSwitch (resized).jpg
Bottom (resized).jpg
Back (resized).jpg
Under (resized).jpg
Spindle4 (resized).jpg
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Spindle2 (resized).jpg
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Relay33 (resized).jpg
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#7 3 years ago

A few questions:

- Do you have it set on 5 balls or 3 balls?

- Do the pop bumper and 10 pt bumpers that you indicated in your photos score correctly? I know the chimes don't sound, but do they score the correct points?

- Do any of the chimes work?

As someone else mentioned, it's probably a good idea to carefully unplug, clean and re-seat the jones plugs after a cross-country trip, as well as inspecting them carefully visually for things like broken solder joints or anything that doesn't look kosher. Especially that 3-5 ball jones plug that the center target behind the drops has to go through to do anything. (It's in the backbox - below the score reels.)

Also, as a very basic tenet, if you're not used to probing around inside a pinball machine, just do it carefully with the power off and good lighting. It's easy to bend things accidentally or catch a switch leaf on a sleeve ... causing more problems than you solve, if you're not paying attention. As someone else said, a switch-bending tool is very very helpful!

Congratulations on getting the game - it looks like it's in great shape cosmetically, and it's loads of fun to play once these problems are sorted out.

card whiz center target (resized).JPGcard whiz center target (resized).JPG

#9 3 years ago

The mech that checks for bonus at the end of the ball is the "I" or "Bonus Unit Relay". It's a touchy little creature called an AS Relay and is located on the underside of the playfield at the left end of a bank of a few relays, connected with its own Jones plug. Just as a first foray, I would examine the Jones plug, unplug, clean and re-seat it, look for loose wires. Assuming that looks good:

You'll see that the I relay has two circuit boards on either side, each having a 2-sided metal wiper that rotates around the circuit boards, making connections as it goes. It's important that the wipers move crisply and cleanly with each pulse of the coil, and that the circuit board traces and wiper contacts are clean so they make good electrical contact. If those things don't happen, your bonus won't work correctly.

You can get your finger in there (carefully) and move the armature - kind of flick it with your finger to simulate it getting a pulse from the coil - to see if the wipers are moving cleanly one position around the circle with each flick of the armature. There's a small nylon ratchet mechanism that makes the wipers move around - if that's not in good shape (the nylon teeth sometimes wear down), you can also have problems.

If things aren't working as they should, you may have to clean the circuit boards/wipers, which involves some disassembly. Luckily, the Jones plug makes it easy to take the AS relay out of the machine to a bench, where you can work on it a little more comfortably if you need to. There's a nice thead with some photos to get you used to the idea:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-as-relay-repairrebuild

Because the AS relay is such a finicky little beast, there's a good chance that you're having a mechanical problem with it. So as a first step, I would examine this relay carefully, and make sure it's working correctly first. Check all the soldering on it as well. Check the Jones plug.

The bonus system is complicated on Card Whiz - and if your problem is not a mechanical one involving the AS relay, I may not be able to help as I'm not sure I understand it completely myself. But there are some pretty clever folks here who can, so just keep asking for help if the problem is not your AS relay ("I" relay).

#12 3 years ago

Wow, your machine is really clean inside! At least you won't have any trouble identifying wire colors or relays. Don't worry, just be persistent and you'll get it working eventually - there are some folks who look at these threads who are very good at solving problems...like HowardR, for instance. The bulb tester he mentions is just two 12V bulbs (auto bulbs) in series with some leads attached so that you can see momentary voltages at any point - it's pretty hard to see a quick voltage spike using a meter, so light bulbs are a good quick visual way to see whether you're getting a voltage at the desired point. It's a handy tool to have.

So Howard's telling you to see if the I relay is getting voltage pulses (clip the light bulb tester leads across the coil lugs), to try to understand why it's sticking at the third bonus light.

#13 3 years ago

What happens if you just light up the first (1000) bonus only? Does it score 1000 pts, then continue on up the ladder? Does it still stick at the 3rd bonus?

And what happens if you light up only the last (5000) bonus? Does it climb all the way up to the 5000 bonus?

#14 3 years ago

The highlighted trail is the circuit that gives a pulse to the I relay to make it move one position as bonuses are counted. When a bonus has been scored, and the ball drains, the E relay is energized, which in this circuit means that the N/O switch labelled "E" is now closed (I've marked it as such in red). The E relay also starts the score motor running, so at some point towards the end of the score motor's 1/3 revolution, motor switch 4C closes. At that point there should be a closed circuit to send voltage to the coil of the I relay. That makes the I relay wipers move one position around their circuit boards. If the I relay is sticking somewhere due to not getting a pulse (the bulb tester will show you whether it is or not), there are 4 switches in the highlighted path involved in this part of the circuit that you could check. The KX make-break switch should be closed, the E switch should be closed (the E relay energized), the BX switch should be closed, and the Motor 4C switch should be open, but should close at some point as the score motor rotates. You'll have to use the wire colors on the schematic to identify the correct switches.

pulse to I relay (resized).JPGpulse to I relay (resized).JPG
#20 3 years ago

Yeah, what sudsy said - check those wipers on the I relay. I'm still kind of wondering about a mechanical problem with that relay, too.

As for hooking up a bulb tester to see if you're getting a pulse at a coil, you can just hook up the leads to each lug of the coil. One side of the coil is the return (usually a black wire on Gottliebs), so if all the switches to the right of the coil are closed, and therefore you're getting 25V across the coil, the bulb will light. Sure you CAN watch the coil and see if it fires, but c'mon, how cool is a light bulb flashing instead!!

#23 3 years ago

You know, the way that I relay is constructed, there is the center nylon spindle with teeth on it, and the spring-loaded little tooth that actually pushes on the spindle teeth to move the spindle around (the red arrow is pointing to it). It does seem unlikely that the teeth on the spindle would be worn enough to cause problems seeing as how the machine looks so good otherwise, but it's possible that the spring-loaded tooth or the spring itself isn't situated correctly, and not doing what it's supposed to be doing.

I mention this because according to your post, the I relay is firing and the metal plate is moving up and down, but the spindle isn't rotating...is that correct? If so, look at that spring and tooth and see if they're doing their jobs. I worked on one where the spring had popped out of place, causing erratic movement of the spindle.

Look at the bright side - you'll be able to disassemble/assemble an AS relay in your sleep after this....it's good experience!

AS relay (resized).pngAS relay (resized).png

#24 3 years ago

...and don't worry, you're not bothering us. I'm curious to see if we can get this thing fixed!

I forgot to mention, when you get the I relay up on a bench with a good light, take the opportunity to look carefully at the parts, how they interact with each other, how when the plate is pulled down by the coil, the "tooth" should drop below the next tooth on the spindle and the spring should push it beneath it, so that when the coil releases the plate, the spring on the back of the plate pulls it up and the tooth lodged under the spindle teeth pushes the spindle around one position. Work it slowly with your fingers and watch the parts move, make sure that tooth is moving freely and the spring is pushing it against the spindle. Understand how it all works together - it's not as scary that way.

I'm sorry to keep calling it a "tooth" - I'm sure it's got a real name, I just don't know it. On a ratchet, I think it's called a "claw", but on this....?

#39 3 years ago

Can you take a close-up photo, maybe a bit from the side of the center spindle teeth where they meet the drive pawl. I want to look at those teeth. Maybe if you remove one of the circuit boards, you can get a good side shot of that area. Also, flick that drive pawl with your finger and make sure it moves freely and seats itself up against the center spindle teeth.

That's a nice collection of machines! I don't see many Captain Cards out there in the wild....lots of High Hands. I love AAB games.

#46 3 years ago

Keep us posted here - I'd like to know what the problem was.

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