I'm not sure about the start up sequence for this machine... But, you can still use basic troubleshooting for a start up issue. What is happening with the score motor when you press the start/credit button? Does the score motor continue to run or does it just stop? Either case, I would look at the main switches that control power to the score motor. Check the following switches:

S relay switch
Z relay switch
F relay switch
X relay switch
#4 bank relay switch
K relay switch
B relay switch
Score motor switch 1C

All of these switches will have a yellow/red wire and a red/white wire attached to them. Check to make sure the switches are cleaned and adjusted properly...

SO does the score motor stop spinning?
Are you not able to load a ball and play at that point? If you do does anything score?
Are all your score reels back to 0 on both players?
Is your ball counter at 5 or 3 depending how you have the machine set up?
Do the flippers work at that point?

--Jeff

Hi Charlie
in the other topic (post-16) I asked about stuff in the Relay Bank. I do not know Add-A-Ball pins - I am not familiar with these old Gottliebs, strange to me "Bank of Relays" http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=286&picno=50754 --- strange to me is Your first picture in post-1 --- to me "two rods coming up" are missing --- BUT here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=286&picno=50756 the two rods are also "missing". I would like to work first / for a while with the assumption "Score-Motor is OK".

Pins like ORBIT, Far Out, Big Indian I know with such an relay bank http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=257&picno=30529 . These pins have (for to start a brand-new game) the NEED "First Ball Relay must be actuated". When we toggle-on such a pin and the First Ball Relay is NOT actuated: By toggling-on: The pin does actuate it.
In Your schematics I do not see this mechanism (toggling on makes the relay actuate) --- but I believe to see "relay MUST be actuated to start a brand-new game" --- I would like to investigate in this relay in Your pin. The video here http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#axrelayvideo is about other stuff - for us of interest is --- so only look at Time 0:33 to 0:58 --- see (?) how he manually activates some relays (2nd, 3rd, 4th player relay).

Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) --- actuate the huge reset arms of the relay-bank, find the ZB-First-Ball-Relay and fumble on it like in the video - make the ZB-Relay actuate. Then plug-in, toggle-on, "start" a game --- question: Exactly the same as before --- OR some wanted action done ? Greetings Rolf

I was reading your other thread. if your score reels are not resetting that would indicate that your D relay is not pulling in.

D relay is controlled by a switch on the SB relay so see if your SB relay is pulling and make sure all switches are cleaned and adjusted.

If SB is not pulling in , check to see if your ball count unit and your continues to play unit are resetting. This will determine the next steps

--Jeff

I don't have the Big Top set up yet, but I believe there's a "Reset Complete Relay"
in the Relay Bank, correct? If so, after the score reels and ball count unit are zeroed
out, does the Reset Complete Relay energize? And if not, you'll want to check the switches
in all score reels and the ones that make when the Ball Count unit is at 0 (at reset)..

I'll look to see if I have a schematic..
In the Bank relay, is there a Reset Complete Relay?
If so, while the score motor is turning, is it in the energized position?

Earlier tonight I looked in the coin door, and Bingo, there's a schematic..
After checking, it's start up operation is pretty much the same as the single
60s players, but instead of being known as the Reset Complete Relay, it's
the Bank Reset Relay (DB) like you mentioned. Once that Relay energizes,
it transfers the circuit from the Ball Counts subtract coil, to the Add (step-up)
coil. For that coil (DB) to energize, a set of switches in each score reel is made when
the score reels are at 0, also a set of switches behind the Ball Count Unit
is made when the Ball Count Unit is in the 0 (total reset) position. When all the
score reel and Ball Count's Unit 0 position switches are made, it completes the circuit
to the DB Relay which then a set of make/break switches transfers the circuit from
the Ball Counts Subtract coil, to it's Add (step up) coil which steps it up 5 positions
from the score motor's A1 set of switches..
First, lets find out if while the score reels and ball count unit are zeroed out (and the
score motor is turning) if the DB Relay is in the energized position?

On the one units energizing and not releasing, check the switches in the D (scoring units reset relay).
Make sure all the switches are open when the D Relay is in the energized position. You might also want
to check that the solder taps aren't touching..
The 10 point bell isn't staying energized, but keeps ringing? If so, the 10s unit is scoring also, right?
If that is correct, then sounds like the F (50 point Relay) is staying energized and most likely would be
a set of switches on the playfield that scores 50 points..

I understand you to mean that one or both tens unit(s) aren't resetting to zero. If that's true and the units work mechanically, here's the path to check to diagnose the problem.

Pinball (resized).png

Hi Charlie
I was working on a snippet of schematics - as HowardR ...

Most likely the SCM-1A (Score-Motor) pulses - You have worked on Score-Motor-Switches - want to check the two switches on SCM-1A ?

Your post-14 "Player-1- and Player-2-Score-Drums-the-Ones-Units stick": Is this TRUE ? --- also the ... Tens-Units should stick (well when the SCM-1A is faulty - then they also should stick). Greetings Rolf

0Big-Top-Work-02 (resized).jpg

Hi Charlie
This https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/surf-champ-1k-bonus-vs-1k-1k-bonus is an interesting topic. TimMe writes in post-4 and post-5 about "masking pulses". In the snippet of schematiscs in post-18 You see on the right the SCM-1A. It does actuate five times per turn (1/3 revolution). To the left and downwards You see other Score-Motor-Switches --- "masking" happens.
But upwards (on the green lines): NO other Score-Motor switches - NO masking.

WHENEVER the Score-Motor is made running: SCM-1A fires / pulses. So the D-Relay is there to "allow to pass" or "not allow to pass" depending on "pin is resetting" or "pin is in play". The Run-Out-Switches on the Score-Drums are there to "allow to pass" or "not allow to pass" depending on "not yet completely resetted" or "have reached Zero position - please no more shots of electricity".

You have not yet written about "Your post-14 ,Player-1- and Player-2-Score-Drums-the-Ones-Units stick: Is this TRUE ?".

I would manually put the problematic Score-Drums to Zero - then start a game and write about the very first fault showing up. Greetings Rolf

Hi Charlie
I must explain the "Is this TRUE" means Do REALLY ONLY to Ones-Units stick ? The schematics shows "Switch SCM-1A fires for the Ones-Units, yes - but ALSO fires for the TENS-Units --- do the TENS Units also stick - or do they not stick and the "not stick" would be strange. Greetings Rolf

Hi Charlie
I live in Switzerland south of Germany - our time-zone is some 8,9,10 hours ahead of the US-time-zones. So we have some kind of a gap in our writings.

I am pleased about "test-3" - to me the pin is almost at the end of the Reset-Cycle. I am familiar with this Control-Bank: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=823&picno=19015 - the huge unit near the player, one coil and a long arm --- I can manually "reset" by pushing the arm away from the player - holding the arm near the coil and push / reset.
Your pin http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=286&picno=50754 has two banks (?). Toggle-off the pin, unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons). Practice to reset one and / or both banks. You push the plunger into the coil to reset the bank(s). Look-out for paper-tags telling "#1, #2, #3, #4" this is the Gottlieb-called "Sequence Bank". Look-out for paper-tags telling "PB, ZB, SB, DB" - in the schematics the name used is simple "Bank" --- let us use the words "Control-Bank".

Plug-in, toggle-on and start a "test-3" type. When the pin comes to the endlessly "firing on the Balls to Play Counter": The Pin should itself reset the Control-Bank --- if the pin does not: YOU carefully do reset the Control-Bank --- questions: Does the "firing on the Balls to Play Unit" stops ? Does the pin kicks out a ball and You can play ? Write about.

We should use the words used in the schematics. A good idea (when troubleshooting) always is "look-up on the '6VAC-Lights-Section of the schematics". On schematics-A5 we see the Balls to Play Unit --- resetted is Position-Zero - You see "Game-Over" lighted in the Backglass. The pin shall step up to position-10.

Look at the JPG - the "SB-Relay" in the Control-Bank was made actuating , orange wiring: Switch in SB-Relay closes, stays closed, makes the Score-Motor run endlessly. The pulsing SCM-1A makes the "Add Balls to play Coil" fire andlessly as the DB-relay has actuated.
See the blue question marks --- the (Control) Bank Reset Coil should fire BUT it does not --- well so YOU DO IT MANUALLY. Greetings Rolf

0Big-Top-Work-04 (resized).jpg

I might add that while in the reset position, the ball counts upper spring loaded wiper does
rest on the last upper rivot that is at about the 10:00 position.
Also, for the ball count unit to stop after 5 step ups, the bank needs to reset.
It sounds like this isn't happening. You'll want to make certain that the DB's Armature Switch
is making good connection while the DB Relay is in the energized position. That is the switch
that sits off the Bank's frame and is closed by the DB Relay itself while the DB Relay is in it's
energized position. Sounds like there's other issues, but first getting it to reset properly would
be a nice start..

Yes, the make break in the DB Relay is in the Step Up Ball Count Unit's circuit, and that is working properly. For it to
stop stepping up when it gets to the 5th position, the Bank has to reset. For the bank to reset, the DB armature switch
needs to be made (and should be when the DB Relay is in the energized position) and the Add Balls to Play Unit needs
a set of switches to be made while it's in the reset position (looks like blue/Red and Orange/Red wires), and then
according to the schematics, it goes through the Continue to Play Unit and I'm not sure why. I have true two player
Gottlieb Add-a-Balls, but haven't gone through any yet. The single player Add-a-Balls have the same Bank Reset
set up, but the circuit continues through the Ball Count Unit. I can understand the Continue to Play Unit having to
be in the reset position for the Bank Reset to fire..
But anyways, you said that the internals were pretty rusty. Did you clean and lightly grease the Ball Count Unit's
wiper board. I still have to believe the circuit for the Reset Bank to reset has to go through there. As you know, that's
the #1 thing to get to work properly. Also, while the Ball Count Unit is being cleaned, I found it a good idea, while the
wiper is off, push down on each spring loaded wiper and put a couple of drops of light weight oil in each of their holes
and then move them up and down a few times to make certain there is no stickiness and they move freely. I myself
like using Remington Gun Oil (the oil in the small plastic bottle, "not aerosol")
What ever is in the Bank Reset circuitry, I would carefully check. With the bottom board in the machine, that DB
Armature switch can be tough to adjust because the Bank has to pretty much be locked in to see how well the switches
are made. BTW- did you happen to jump the Bank Reset coil just to make sure that it does fire?

It dawned on me that the set of switches on the Ball Count Unit has to be made
while the unit "is not" in the reset position, so I went up and looked in the backbox,
and those switches are opened when it's in the reset position which does make
scents, and closed when stepped up..
Yes, when you have a machine that's not internally in the best shape (at least from
the get go) problems can keep popping up. Going through the entire machine first,
is the thing to do which I think you said you have done..
Okay, inside the coin door, there's a Anti Cheat switch which should be made,
and on the bottom board (I believe toward the front) there's what is known as a
Bounce switch. You'll want to clean those and make sure they are making well, and
there's also a 7.5 amp fuse in that line. And just a reminder, those switches are 115V.
After cleaning those switches and rechecking that fuse, the Start Relay should energize
which immediately should energize the Hold Relay..

Hi Charlie
frustration --- not yet - I hope for luck. You MADE the Control-Bank resetting (post-27) --- a NEW situation for the pin. I suggest: Read my post-4 - watch the mentioned video --- unplug the pin (Safety Reasons) --- fumble on the Control-Bank (as shown in the video) - MAKE the ZB-First-Ball-Relay (in the Control-Bank) actuate. Then plug-in, toggle-on, start a game - at the end when the pin endlessly steps on the Balls to Play Unit: MANUALLY reset the Control-Bank. Greetings Rolf

Hi Charlie
the S-Start-Relay runs on 110VAC. The Score-Motor and the other stuff run on 25 VAC. Have You checked the 25-VAC-Fuse ? When You manually turn a bit on the Score-Motor (grab the turntable disc and move / turn a bit --- DOES the Score-Motor then runs on its own ? IF (if) it runs: Fuse is good. Greetings Rolf

So the DB coil is going in the energized position, right?
But either way, it sounds like one of the make/break switches in
the DB Relay needs adjustment. Once the DB energizes, it should
break from the subtract coil circuitry, and make with the Add
coils.

If you want to test for continuity within the switch you have to unsolder a wire on one of the connections you're testing. There is possible correct continuity elsewhere in the machine.

Yes, that very possibly could be..
Also, you may want to recheck the contacts in the B Relay making sure none are touching
when their not suppose to be, and also the score motor's 2c and 3b contacts. Most likely
that's not it, but looks to be a possibility..
I once thought that I saw more than one set of make/break switches on the schematics in the
DB Relay, but now don't see that..
Not saying 100%, but unless you notice something suspicious on the wiring harness, I'd say all
is fine and if B Relay and score motor contacts are okay, I'd still have to think something hard
to notice is happening with the DB Relays make/break switch, or in that direct area..
Trust me, I know how it is. If things start getting too upsetting, just kick back and take a break..
It's only a pinball that's not functioning properly "yet"..

Interesting. What do you have in mind? Is this you?

Hey, if Charlie is Charlene's nickname, I'll stay with you right to the end.
But easy on the perfume..
Anyways, business before pleasure, "Charlie"?
I do see how both switches can have continuity in the DBs make/break switch, but only
when the SB Relay is in the energized position, or a switch in the SB Relay is making when
it should be opened, but even still, from what I see, that shouldn't keep making the Subtract
coil to energize once the DB Relay is in the energized position..
Now is the time I'm doing plenty of outdoor projects, so not sure how often I'll be checking in.
If I didn't have many other projects going on, I'd go through the Big Top and have it set up and
check things out first hand..
I'm sure Rolf will check back, and/or someone with a Big Top set up may have something
to add, but it must be both sides of the DBs make/break switch is getting 25V when both coils
are firing together. Probably a little rough to get in there and check with a meter..
If needed, we can do a little testing by doing a little unsoldering here and there also..

Yea okay, but I thought the biggest problem was that once the Ball
Count Unit stepped down to the zero position, both the Subtract and
Advance Coils were firing..
BTW- If you don't have a schematic, would you like me to get a copy
made for you? (T)

I'd first check all the playfield switches, especially the four fifty point rollovers and right & left blue bumpers. Put slips of paper in between the contacts.

Hi Charlie
I am not sure where You are with the problems by now. In post-42 You wrote "10 point bell is ringing repeatedly". In post-33 Mopar writes to Your "Both (step-up and step-down) Coils fire" - Mopar writes about "faulty Make-and-Brake-Switch on DB-Relay".

I believe that You have one or more problems on the "start and resetting stuff" as well as You have one or more problems when it comes to "ball is in play".
I would like to keep-off the problems "when ball is in play" and so I would like to cheat on the pin and keep-off these problems --- so You can concentrate on the problems "start and the resetting stuff".

The "cheating" I would like You to do is "permanently OPEN a switch on T-Tilt-Relay" --- so the electricity cannot reach the playfield --- OK - You cannot play - but You are troubleshooting for "start and resetting faults". See the JPG in post-23, upper right corner - see the "Switch on Tilt-Relay with wires soldered-on: "Wire-color-red" and "wire-color-red-green". Sneak-in a stripe of paper for insulation - to keep this switch always open - so You temporary get rid of the "10 point bell endlessly chimes" --- and we can concentrate on "start and resetting problems". Greetings Rolf

Hi Charlie
great - some progress.
The "cheating on the Tilt-Relay-Switch" is just for "helping to troubleshoot START-UP".

Mopar wrote about - You showed (post-34) a Make-and-Brake-Switch --- is it easy to get at this switch and adjust it ?
I dislike to work on Score-Motor-Switches in a Switchstack - I also dislike to work on (Control-) Bank Switches --- I FIRST do testing and when the results of my "testing" say: The fault is there - I grumble and do the disliked work.

Look at the JPG in post-23. Wire-black-red runs to "Coil on Add Balls to Play Unit", wire-yellow-mingled-with-red runs to "Coil on Subtract Balls to Play Unit". Want to unsolder these wires from "Solder-Lug on Coil" - BOTH. Clip on a Jumper-Wire at the (now unsoldered) end of one wire. Also clip-on a Jumper-Wire ... other wire.
Manually set the Unit down to Zero-Position --- Clip-on the Jumper-Wire "wire-black-red" onto the coil --- start a game --- NOW the pin can only STEP-UP - hopefully to position five. THEN unclip "wire-black-red" AND clip-on "wire-yellow-mingled-with-red" --- as You want to play and the pin wants to subtract, step-down after You have lost a played ball. Greetings Rolf

It's remotely possible that the SB coil is bad, but barring that, here's the circuit that activates the SB relay. Check the switches on the highlighted route.

Pinball (resized).png

Hi Charlie
HowardR shows (post-49, blue wiring) the "Switch on ZB-FIRST-Ball-Relay" --- in post-29 I suggested: Have the pin unplugged - manually make the ZB-Relay actuate (as shown in the pinrepair-video) --- in post-4 (... Pins like ORBIT, Far Out ...) I wrote about "Gottlieb pins NEED this relay actuated for to start a new game". What hapens when You manually make the ZB-Relay actuate BEFORE You try to start a new game ? Greetings Rolf