(Topic ID: 250108)

Gottlieb Big Shot trough switch

By gottguy

4 years ago


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  • 12 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by gottguy
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Big Shot Target reset (resized).jpg
Big Shot Q relay (resized).jpg
Big Shot Switch Dogs (resized).jpg
Big Shot Player unit 2 (resized).jpg
Big Shot Ball Return relay (resized).jpg
#1 4 years ago

Can a Big Shot or Hot Shot owner confirm correct operation? On my game, when the outhole kicks the ball over to the shooter lane the trough switch under the apron causes the score motor to run and causes a second firing of the ball return solenoid, even though there is no ball in the outhole. It is causing the player unit to not always advance to the next ball since the score motor is running. Any time the trough switch is activated....by ball or manually under the playfield the score motor runs and the outhole kicker fires. I am guessing I have a fault that is allowing the second outhole kicker activation

#2 4 years ago
Quoted from gottguy:

Any time the trough switch is activated....by ball or manually under the playfield the score motor runs and the outhole kicker fires.

I think that's how it's supposed to work:
Big Shot Ball Return relay (resized).jpgBig Shot Ball Return relay (resized).jpg
When the Trough switch closes the P/Add Player Unit relay fires which closes the normally open P switch which should also fire the O/Ball Return relay I think. The O relay in turn fires up the Score Motor.

Quoted from gottguy:

It is causing the player unit to not always advance to the next ball since the score motor is running.

I think the Score Motor needs to be turning to advance the Player Unit:
Big Shot Player unit 2 (resized).jpgBig Shot Player unit 2 (resized).jpg
If the Player Unit doesn't advance reliably I'd check/clean all the switches in the red path.

/Mark

#3 4 years ago

Strange that the outhole would fire with no ball to kick, but no matter....it seems when a ball is kicked from the outhole it is happening too soon and the game isn't ready to register the trough switch in order to step the player unit. If I stop the ball momentarily after it is kicked and then allow it to cross the trough switch it will advance the player unit (and activate the outhole kicker again.) I'm thinking a timing issue. MarkG do you have the score motor switch dog positions from the schematic? I have the rest of it in pieces but that part is gone.

#4 4 years ago

Hi gottguy, MarkG +
the "strange to us" activating of the Outhole relay a second time - King Kool: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-king-kool-player-unit-not-working-correctly#post-4845077 --- also see Orbit https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1724&picno=19273 the lights on the playfield - almost a circle. When a new ball shall be given - the stepping forward of the light to position-zero is done by the outhole relay pulling --- but sometimes the light must step more than 5 steps - "not so good Gottlieb solution": Lets make the Outhole relay pull-in a second time ...

gottguy - Your (post-1) "player unit not always advancing" has not much (my opinion) to do with "outhole relay pulls-in a second time (caused by the pulling-in of the P-Add-Player-Unit-Relay)". Greetings Rolf

#5 4 years ago
Quoted from gottguy:

it seems when a ball is kicked from the outhole it is happening too soon and the game isn't ready to register the trough switch in order to step the player unit.

The Q, O and P relays and the Ball Return solenoid shouldn't fire until the Bonus Unit has stepped through all 15 positions. Is that happening correctly?

Here are the switch dog positions:
Big Shot Switch Dogs (resized).jpgBig Shot Switch Dogs (resized).jpg

If you have a schematic could you compare it against the one posted in https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-big-shot-em-score-motor-#post-5160586? There is a hand written section in that one that I'm curious about. Does it match your game or your schematic?

#6 4 years ago

I was using schematic snippets posted in another thread, but I did see that handwritten notation. I went thru all the switches in those paths to the player unit a third time...fingers crossed it is playing normally now! Thanks guys

#7 4 years ago

Spoke too soon. Every few balls the bonus count and bank reset runs longer than it should and the ball kicks out prior to completion, thus failing to advance the player unit. When it does it, it appears the banks are resetting more than once.

#8 4 years ago

That could be two separate issues. Can you elaborate on what "longer than it should" means? I think the Bonus Unit should take 15 steps which would take at least 3 Score Motor cycles (360 degrees total).

If your ball is kicking out early it could be that the Q/Ball Return Control relay is firing before the Bonus Unit reaches the last (#14) position:
Big Shot Q relay (resized).jpgBig Shot Q relay (resized).jpg
If that seems to be happening check the Make/Break switch on the ZB/1st Ball relay in your trip relay bank. If it's gapped too close it may be allowing the Q relay to fire when it shouldn't due to vibrations like the Bonus Unit stepping.

#9 4 years ago

By longer than it should I mean the drop banks reset twice that I can tell, so it seems the score motor is still turning when the ball crosses the trough switch and doesn't register.

#10 4 years ago

ZB looks ok with plenty of gapping. The target banks are still sometimes resetting more than once, despite the ball kicking out from the outhole. I am going to go through whatever triggers the bank resets. The issue seems to be that the target bank reset is taking longer with the multiple resets while the ball is already kicking out....not that the ball is necessarily kicking out early

#11 4 years ago
Quoted from gottguy:

The issue seems to be that the target bank reset is taking longer with the multiple resets while the ball is already kicking out....not that the ball is necessarily kicking out early

Check the P relay switch on the target bank reset circuit:
Big Shot Target reset (resized).jpgBig Shot Target reset (resized).jpg
That should open after the ball kicks out (when the trough switch closes) and prevent the 2nd target reset pulse.

Beware that this is in the 120v part of the circuit so unplug the game before you poke around in there.

Quoted from MarkG:

The Q, O and P relays and the Ball Return solenoid shouldn't fire until the Bonus Unit has stepped through all 15 positions. Is that happening correctly?

Did you ever check this?

#12 4 years ago

I had previously replaced the bonus unit stepper pawl arm with one from a 60's era game because it was worn and not stepping consistently. The 60's pawl was shaped slightly differently and used a different smaller spring setup, which was occasionally allowing the stepper to overrun the home position triggering the C relay and hence another reset. It was tricky to find because it stepped flawlessly by hand but the rigorous target scanning was too much for the different pawl to handle. Just need to source a suitable replacement and the issue is resolved. Thanks Mark for the help!

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