(Topic ID: 255275)

Gottlieb-Big-Shot - Start Up Failure


By tcw16505

30 days ago



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  • Latest reply 3 days ago by tcw16505
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Big Shot - Installation Procedures.pdf (PDF preview)

#1 30 days ago

@currieddog @dr_nybble @gjm @howardr @markg , Thanks for all your past help on this machine. - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-big-shot-em-score-motor-#post-5294155
Same Game New Problem - On power up the back lights come up. Its set to free play via jumper on the replay unit. When I hit the replay button it goes through a standard reset and when completed its still is showing "Game Over". At no time during the reset does the Hold Relay (R) or Tilt Hold Relay (H) energize so no power to playfield lights.

HB, ZB SB1&2 remain latched in the bank so no power flows through QB2 (Print I,9) contacts so no flippers, sling shots or pop bumpers.

Observation: I jumped the power over the SB2 contacts (Print I,9) and besides the fact that power flows to the flippers, sling shots, and pop bumpers, the 100 point chime coil M fires the 100 point chime solenoid and it stays on as long as I hold the jumper.

#2 30 days ago

Does the R or H relays lock in if you manually actuate the relays? I had a similar problem and the issue was the contact on the H relay that keeps itself energized was dirty so the relay couldn't remain powered.

#3 30 days ago
Quoted from KingofKoopas:

Does the R or H relays lock in if you manually actuate the relays? I had a similar problem and the issue was the contact on the H relay that keeps itself energized was dirty so the relay couldn't remain powered.

Yes, if R is first H will hold as well.

#4 27 days ago
Quoted from tcw16505:

@currieddog @dr_nybble @gjm @howardr @markg , Thanks for all your past help on this machine. - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-big-shot-em-score-motor-#post-5294155
Same Game New Problem - On power up the back lights come up. Its set to free play via jumper on the replay unit. When I hit the replay button it goes through a standard reset and when completed its still is showing "Game Over". At no time during the reset does the Hold Relay (R) or Tilt Hold Relay (H) energize so no power to playfield lights.
HB, ZB SB1&2 remain latched in the bank so no power flows through QB2 (Print I,9) contacts so no flippers, sling shots or pop bumpers.
Observation: I jumped the power over the SB2 contacts (Print I,9) and besides the fact that power flows to the flippers, sling shots, and pop bumpers, the 100 point chime coil M fires the 100 point chime solenoid and it stays on as long as I hold the jumper.

I guess I 'm strugling with understanding the start sequence in order to see whats missing and when. Any ideas?

#5 27 days ago

I think the R relay should pull in early in the start sequence. Do you have a schematic for this game?

Looking at my Jumping Jack schematic, the only switches that need to be closed to fire the R relay, are a switch on the S relay, the anti-cheat switch and the lightbox tilt switch.

#6 27 days ago

I remembered more than one relay is activated at power up. I just took a quick look inside my coin door and powered up. If you manually reset the bank.. ZB, QB1 and QB2 will latch at power up.

#7 27 days ago

Since the R relay holds in through itself when activated manually, that shows that the other switches to complete the circuit (lightbox tilt and anti-cheat) are closed properly. The only other switch in play is the one on the S relay. May be dirty or not making good contact.

Clean and adjust switches on S relay. or you could jumper the switch in question (green circle) to see if it works.

bs2 (resized).png
#8 27 days ago

So now its not even doing much of a reset when I hit the credit button. I just fired it up to have a look at some of your suggestions and now the score motor rotates 1/3 revolution and it only clears the two sets of drop targets and nothing more. Its repeatable so that's where I'm at now. - Tom

#9 27 days ago

Were your score reels all at zero when this happened? If so, advance a few of them off of zero manually, and then see if it will reset.

If that doesn't help, reach in a press the S relay with your finger and see if it starts resetting. Sometimes if you can get a machine to fire through the start up sequence, the wiping action of the blades, will clean the suspect switch, just enough to work the next time, but it will probably come back until you find and clean the particular switch that is causing the problem.

#10 26 days ago
Quoted from RustyRazor:

If you manually reset the bank.. ZB, QB1 and QB2 will latch at power up.

I reset in the way you sugested and HB comes in along with ZB, QB1 and QB2. When I hit the reset S comes in and V pulses once and now R comes now in as I explain below.

Quoted from edednedy:

Since the R relay holds in through itself when activated manually, that shows that the other switches to complete the circuit (lightbox tilt and anti-cheat) are closed properly. The only other switch in play is the one on the S relay. May be dirty or not making good contact.
Clean and adjust switches on S relay. or you could jumper the switch in question (green circle) to see if it works.[quoted image]

The R relay now comes in. Good call. Thanks for zeroing in on this piece of the puzzle. The S contact was not making a good connection.

Quoted from edednedy:

Were your score reels all at zero when this happened? If so, advance a few of them off of zero manually, and then see if it will reset.

No but I went ahead and advance every digit on both players just to see and nope.

#11 24 days ago
Quoted from tcw16505:

I reset in the way you sugested and HB comes in along with ZB, QB1 and QB2. When I hit the reset S comes in and V pulses once and now R comes now in as I explain below.

The R relay now comes in. Good call. Thanks for zeroing in on this piece of the puzzle. The S contact was not making a good connection.

No but I went ahead and advance every digit on both players just to see and nope.

On power up I have HB, LB and ZB. I should have ZB, QB1 & QB2. I am going see if I can get a handle on why HB and LB are on before I look at why SB1 & SB2 are not. (According to the "Operation Instructions" SB1 should come in to begin the Score and Player Unit resets.) Any ideas?
Big Shot - Installation Procedures.pdfBig Shot.pdf

#12 24 days ago

If you look at the left side of your schematic under "control bank", you will notice the QB2 is not a relay. It is physically attached to the QB1 relay and acts as additional points for the same function. Therefore, your problem lies with QB1. You might want to clean the points of QB1 and R. I am not familiar with how long you have had this machine, but when I get a machine that does not work.. I generally spend some time cleaning "all" points. Yes, it may take some time.. but it sure cuts down the debugging time trying to figure out a multitude of problems. Not to mention the problems that arise shortly after you get that kind of a machine running again.

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#13 24 days ago
Quoted from tcw16505:

why HB and LB are on

HB and LB are activated by the Player Unit wiper disc so if the Player Unit is in the right position, just turning the game on could activate them.

#14 23 days ago
Quoted from RustyRazor:

Therefore, your problem lies with QB1.

I am very sorry but I accidentally said "before I look at why QB1 & QB2 are not." but meant to say "before I look at why SB1/SB2 are not." According to the "Operation Instructions" SB1 should come in to begin the Score and Player Unit resets. They do not.

Quoted from RustyRazor:

I generally spend some time cleaning "all" points. Yes, it may take some time.. but it sure cuts down the debugging time trying to figure out a multitude of problems. Not to mention the problems that arise shortly after you get that kind of a machine running again.

Excellent advice. I do this with most every EM machine. This machine had fair amount to be sure. Particularly in the bank, score motor and player unit. Now that I understand

Quoted from HowardR:HB and LB are activated by the Player Unit
I will give a hard look at SB1.

#15 23 days ago

~ It was ZB. I unscrewed the stack and re-cleaned and re gaped the contacts.

After I manually resetting the bank I hit the start button. It cleared all the reals and reset all the drop targets and turned on the playfield lights and all was set for player one. Only HB & ZB remained triggered in the bank. I played ball one and as it finished it went to game over. I noticed a hum and discovered contact M is energized. That seems to be a very busy circuit. 7 or more things can bring M in. I manually tried to open it and it went right back in so its not the rung with the N.O. "M" contact holding it. I will try to walk my way through it.

#16 23 days ago

OK, "M" was was being brought in by the "Left Target" that must have received a substantial impact and was stuck closed. I reset the bank and hit the start switch. Everything reset and "M" is no longer energized. However it goes strait to Game Over. When the bank comes to rest HB, QB1 & XB are locked. H and R are energized. Game over, match number and "2 can play" is lit. Oh, but it never gets to the ball return solenoid. Any ideas?

#17 22 days ago

When doing the reset without the ball in the Out Hole is does not go to Game Over. However after the reset has apparently stopped, and the ball is then set in the Out Hole, XB closes and is then followed by QB1 and then Game Over.

#18 21 days ago

Just a hunch.. QB1 is turned on by XB (Last ball relay) && O (Ball return relay). Any chance the ball counter isn't being reset?? I think if its on the last ball in the player unit, it would act this way. Have you cleaned the contacts on the player unit, checked alignment and proper stepping function?

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#19 21 days ago
Quoted from RustyRazor:

Just a hunch.. QB1 is turned on by XB (Last ball relay) && O (Ball return relay). Any chance the ball counter isn't being reset?? I think if its on the last ball in the player unit, it would act this way. Have you cleaned the contacts on the player unit, checked alignment and proper stepping function?

Good thought. I checked on that. I manually advanced the Player Unit so it could reset when credit button is closed. The cam follower came up on top of the Black Cam tooth (zero position).

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#20 19 days ago

Update

I decided to walk through the operating instructions in hopes of find where the system fails.

OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS
1. Inserting a coin or pushing the replay button actuates “S” relay (start relay).
2. This relay will lock in through its own switch and a motor 2B switch.
3. “S" relay starts the motor running.
4. 11SB1 11 relay and the total play meter are actuated by a switch on motor 2C through a switch that has been closed on “S” relay.
5. When “SB1” relay is tripped the score units and player unit reset sequence starts. The 1st player score units reset to zero through the P3 switch stack on the player unit by motor switches 1A & 4A. When these units reach zero the player unit steps once, the 2nd player score units reset to zero through the P4 switch stack on the player unit by motor switches 1A & 4A. When these units reach zero the player unit steps until P5B opens. The score units and player unit are now reset.
6. The control bank is reset by a switch on motor 3C through a switch on "U" relay.
7. Inserting additional coins or pushing the replay button will actuate the 2nd player relay (PB) through motor 2C switch.
8. Place the ball in the outhole. The ball return switch closes and completes the circuit to "Q" relay. A switch on "Q" closes and through switches on Motor 1D, "J" and "I" completes the circuit to "0" relay.

I get this far and though it says "O" locks in the next step the act of locking might be for one second so I can’t say for sure if it locks or not but it does energize and the score motor comes on for 1/3 of a rotation. At this point the game goes to game over. The ball return coil does not energize and receives no power to do so.

My questions are:
Is 1/3 of a rotation enough to actuate motor 4C to allow the ball return coil to energize?
If not, why is it being cut off early?
If it is then where the power for 4C?
If I do get the power to the "ball return coil" to shoot the ball onto the runway, will it just go to Game Over because of another problem remaining?

Please offer suggestions or let me know if I should go in another direction. - Tom

The following paragraph is how it should finish.

"0" relay locks in through its own switch and a switch on motor 2B. When "0" relay is energized, motor 4C actuates the ball return coil (which kicks the ball onto the runway) through a switch on "0". The ball is now in the runway and is ready to be put into play.
9. The remaining balls that enter the outhole are kicked across the trough switch which pulls in "P" relay. "P" relay pulls in "0" relay which runs the motor. Switches on 'XB", 'ZB', motor 2C, "P", and motor 1A advances the player unit the required number of steps determined by the player unit switches and the player relay. (PB)

WHEN A TILT SWITCH IS MADE THE PLAYER LOSES THE BALL IN PLAY. IF THE PLAYER CAUSES ONE OF THE BOUNCE SWITCHES TO OPEN (IN THE LIGHTBOX, BOTTOM PANEL, OR FRONT DOOR) THE GAME WILL BE OVER. ADJUST THESE SWITCHES TO YOUR NEEDS.

#21 19 days ago

"I get this far and though it says "O" locks in the next step the act of locking might be for one second so I can’t say for sure if it locks or not but it does energize and the score motor comes on for 1/3 of a rotation. At this point the game goes to game over. The ball return coil does not energize and receives no power to do so."

Is QB1 latching when this happens?? If so, it would cut power to "O"

#22 19 days ago
Quoted from RustyRazor:

Is QB1 latching when this happens?? If so, it would cut power to "O"

Thanks for your question. In short yes. At the end of Operating Instruction 5 "HB" is the only contact locked in the bank. When I insert the ball into the Outhole the bank finishes with "HB, QB1/2 and XB (last ball)". Why XB (and also the player unit advances to player 2 at the same time even though it was credited to player 1 only, and yes "Game Over lights as well) rather than the ball return coil.

I would say with some certainty that the problem lies in the below diagram. I know, the brush I’m wielding a broad one to be sure but all the players are here. HB, XB and how the game ends on two players. The ball return that should come in but never gets there. Admittedly I get a little queasy when I see MOTOR referenced or dashed lines around any part of a diagram. But here it is and I am very grateful for any help that can be offered. - Tom

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#23 19 days ago

At the end of the fifth ball, my machine lights up the player "2" after scoring the bonus even though it was only in single player mode. Is this happening on ball 1?? Have you tried both settings of 3 ball or 5 ball?

#24 17 days ago
Quoted from RustyRazor:

At the end of the fifth ball, my machine lights up the player "2" after scoring the bonus even though it was only in single player mode. Is this happening on ball 1?? Have you tried both settings of 3 ball or 5 ball?

Only on ball 5. I will check on ball three shortly.

Question: Is your machine updated to the hand drawn part on Q? I desided to go ahead and do this update to my machine with some spare parts I had. The N.C. on the ball return was easy. Not the case with the N.C. on QB2. Thats where I'm at now. I need to reassemble QB2 now and run the wire.

#25 15 days ago

It all acts the same on the ball three setting.

While looking to move forward with my wiring upgrade I noticed some wires on the bank contacts where to close and I think even touching. The thing that has always concerned me about this game is the lack of the clear tubing you see on other machines from this era that where the precursor to heat shrink. Coincidentally when I go through the OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS now I get all the way through Step 8 with the ball going in the runway but again it goes strait into game over.

This is because for reasons unknown XB, the "last ball relay" is energized activating QB1/2 Game Over Relay/Switches. Any suggestions?

Side Bar: By the way, I am holding up on the wiring upgrade I mentioned in my previous entry until I get the parts in the mail for a double-decker contactor. This will provide a much cleaner installation rather than skillfully jamming in an extra NC contactor.

1 week later
#26 8 days ago

I know the Player Unit is set correctly regarding the zero cam position shown in entry #19 above however I am interested in knowing if the rotating adjustable Bakelite plate is in the right position. Can anyone confirm from my pictures shot from both sides that it is correct in zero position (Reset Position)? This is a two player Player Unit so only one contact on the one side and two on the other.

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#27 8 days ago

If the Ball In Play lights light correctly then the relationship between the disk and wiper are correct.

#28 8 days ago

That being said Howard,

When I complete:

Quoted from tcw16505:

7. Inserting additional coins or pushing the replay button will actuate the 2nd player relay (PB) through motor 2C switch.

Player one is indicated so the Player Unit Bakelite plate is in the right position. So now I can focus on when I place the ball in the outhole.

Quoted from tcw16505:

8. Place the ball in the outhole. The ball return switch closes and completes the circuit to "Q" relay. A switch on "Q" closes and through switches on Motor 1D, "J" and "I" completes the circuit to "0" relay.

Somehow when the Ball Return Switch (see diagram below) is closed, XB (see second diagram below) the "last ball relay" is energized activating QB1/2 (see third diagram below) Game Over Relay/Switches.

I wish I was a better sleuth but learning has its rewards. I look forward to any of your thoughts. - Tom
Ball Return Sw & Rly (resized).pngthe_problem_is_here (resized).jpg

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#29 7 days ago
Quoted from tcw16505:

Player one is indicated so the Player Unit Bakelite plate is in the right position. So now I can focus on when I place the ball in the outhole.

If this is before you let the machine have the ball in the outhole then you aren't under game conditions and the bakelite plate and wiper could be in the wrong relative position.

#30 7 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If this is before you let the machine have the ball in the outhole then you aren't under game conditions and the bakelite plate and wiper could be in the wrong relative position.

I should have mentioned that the bakelite plate of the Player Unit does not move when I add the ball. - Tom

#31 5 days ago

Well I found the main problem. I zeroed in on XB (Game Over). It became less of a problem to narrow down once I answered your question about how the Player Unit does not move when I add the ball. Its parked on Ball 1 which is contact 15 and only rivets 4,5,8,9,12,13,16,17 could be used to complete the circuit for game over so the Player Unit couldn’t be involved and yet the connection would have to be made somehow without it. The circuit the way it is drawn couldn't do it so I first looked all over the Player Unit for a wire loose to or from 15 that dropped down to one of the other involved rivets and nothing. Every other point of the circuit I had been over many times in the past. So instead of looking for bent or out of adjustment wire gap or dirty contacts I decided to look at wire connections. I traveled all the way through the circuit over to the normally open contact for XB circuit on MOTOR 1D. I found the wire tab on the BL -BLK side of the contact could be touching a blue wire on level 1C. If it was it was a razer thin connection. That was it. They were touching.

The only remaining problem I have now is the ball kicks out into the ball shooter lane after ball 5 is complete and game over is established. - Tom

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#32 5 days ago
Quoted from tcw16505:

the ball kicks out into the ball shooter lane after ball 5 is complete and game over is established

What are the Last Ball (XB) and Game Over (QB1) relays doing when this happens?

#33 5 days ago

Here is the circuit you should trace.

I suspect that the XB is staying closed, when it is should be open. or the XB relay isn't pulling.

Ball Return (resized).JPG
#34 5 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

What are the Last Ball (XB) and Game Over (QB1) relays doing when this happens?

Quoted from ArgosySK:

Here is the circuit you should trace.
I suspect that the XB is staying closed, when it is should be open. or the XB relay isn't pulling.

Last Ball (XB) and Game Over (QB1) are acting as if it was any ball but the 5th. XB comes in followed by QB1 and then the Ball Return Coil.

With XB Latched and SB1 inactive (not latched) I am hard pressed to find a pathway for curent to flow to the Ball Return coil.

#35 5 days ago
Quoted from tcw16505:

Last Ball (XB) and Game Over (QB1) are acting as if it was any ball but the 5th. XB comes in followed by QB1 and then the Ball Return Coil.

I have no idea what this means.
Your first sentence seems to say that XB and QB1 never activate. Your second sentence seems to imply that both XB and QB1 activate.

#36 5 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

I have no idea what this means.

Sorry, only on ball 5 does Last Ball (XB) and Game Over (QB1) latch and then the Ball Return Coil energizes.

#37 5 days ago

I have just finished repairing the Player One 100's Reel. Also, the #7 Ball Drop Target which was resetting too high in position and wouldn’t go down so I think I got that fixed.

Observation: I was playing a game to see if my repairs mentioned above were working properly. When ball 5 finished it didn't go into Game Over until the Ball Return kicked the ball across and then as it went over Trough Switch which activates "P" it went to game over. I was not able to repeat this however.

Also, occasionally (1 out of 5) the ball being played does not advance when you drain.

#38 5 days ago
Quoted from tcw16505:

only on ball 5 does Last Ball (XB) and Game Over (QB1) latch and then the Ball Return Coil energizes

Quoted from tcw16505:

When ball 5 finished it didn't go into Game Over until the Ball Return kicked the ball across and then as it went over Trough Switch which activates "P" it went to game over

The first quote above seems to say that the Game Over relay activates before the Ball Return solenoid activates.
The second quote above seems to say that the Game Over relay activates after the Ball Return solenoid activates.
Make it easy for us to help you.

Quoted from tcw16505:

occasionally (1 out of 5) the ball being played does not advance when you drain

Does the Add Player Unit (P) relay activate when this happens?

#39 4 days ago

Let’s just say it’s a case of too much information. Game Over relay activates before the Ball Return solenoid activates.

Quoted from HowardR:Does the Add Player Unit (P) relay activate when this happens?

No, Add Player Unit (P) relay is not activated when this happens (I installed a SR313 lamp so I can see if the P coil receives a signal or not). It seems to be conducting a longer than normal reset when this accurse so it’s still doing this as the ball crosses over the Trough Switch which is why I believe it doesn’t advance the ball count.

I noticed yet another infrequent problem. When completing a ball (Ball in drain) and conducting bonus count, it will complete counting the bonus but get stuck cycling (with no additional scoring) for 10 or 20 even 30 cycles of the score motor cycling with the popper light cycling on and off as well as the side lane 1000 point lamp. Eventually it clears on its own and kicks the ball over the Trough Switch.

#40 4 days ago
Quoted from tcw16505:

Game Over relay activates before the Ball Return solenoid activates.

Here's how the Ball Return solenoid should be prevented from activating at Game Over
1. Last Ball (XB) relay activates the Game Over (QB1) relay
2. Last Ball (XB) relay interrupts power to the Ball Return solenoid

Which part of this isn't working?

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#41 4 days ago
Quoted from tcw16505:

Add Player Unit (P) relay is not activated when this happens

Here's the circuit that should activate the Add Player Unit (P) relay when the ball goes across the Trough switch.

pasted_image (resized).png
#42 4 days ago
Quoted from tcw16505:

when this accurse

The whole thing sounds " accursed". (Couldn't resist)

#43 4 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

The whole thing sounds "
accursed". (Couldn't resist)

Sorry, it was late... and then there was the beer... and this game acts accursed with all the troubles its had.

#44 4 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Here's how the Ball Return solenoid should be prevented from activating at Game Over
1. Last Ball (XB) relay activates the Game Over (QB1) relay
2. Last Ball (XB) relay interrupts power to the Ball Return solenoid
Which part of this isn't working?[quoted image][quoted image]

XB comes in and then QB1 follows. Finally, the ball return coil fires. The XB contact in question is open so the voltage seems to be coming from another source. In this regard it's similar to the previous problem.

#45 4 days ago

Just found the coil winding on the P coil broke next to the solder joint. Now no more issues there.

#46 4 days ago

I straitened up the wires around XB and didn't see anything touching that shouldn’t be however all is working as it should! Two times in a row now.

#47 3 days ago

@howardr
@rustyrazor
@edednedy
@argosysk
@kingofkoopas

Well its working consistently now with no issues. What a long road! Thanks so much for traveling it with me and giving me the confidence to carry on. It’s another EM saved from the burn pile!

Some playfield touchup is next and I have three drop targets that reset to high because the stopper tooth has broken off. I may have to replace them if I cant think of some way to stop them from overshooting during rest.

Grace and peace to each of you for giving so generously of yourselves. - Tom

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