Hi pinballbrian
look at the JPG --- maybe You have an stuck / faulty always closed Start-Button / Credit-Button / Replay-Button. Maybe You have the setting "First Coin Chute Adj." set to One-Play and a stuck / faulty always closed First Coin Chute Switch - AND (as Your V-Relay also pulls-in): The Self-Hold-Switch on V-Relay is also stuck / faulty always closed.

In the JPG I have marked "blue": Switch on the motor - when the motor runs - this makes the motor to make the turn of 120 degree to its end --- when You toggle-on the pin with motor is NOT in a Home-Position: This switch makes the motor to make the turn of 120 degree to its end - and then the motor stops.
Motor-2B opening (very late in a turn of 120 degrees) make the S- and V-Relay to "let go" - but the motor turns further to reach the end of a turn - doing so: Motor-2B closes again - and by reaching the end of a turn motor-1C (I put a brown * to it) closes -and the fault starts again. Greetings Rolf

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Hi pinballbrian
the wires in post-15: Can You follow the wires to their other ends ?
To post-14: All the Gottlieb schematics have a list of relays used - maybe a list of Control-Bank and / or other bank - the schematics "Big Shot" says "S-Start-Relay, 6A, 1B", "V-Replay-Button-Relay, 2A", "R-Hold-Relay,2A,1B,1C". A, B, C means "A is an Normally Open Switch" - "B is an Normally Closed Switch" - "C is an threebladed Make-and-Brake Switch".
Therefore the S-Relay has 6 Normally Open Switches and One Normally Closed Switch.

Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord - look at the JPG in post-12 - unplug the plug from 1st Coin Chute Adj. --- with this You (kind of) cut the direct wire to the S-Relay. See in the wiring to the V-Relay the "Zero Pos Replay Unit" Switch - this switch must be open when the Replay-Counter has Zero Credits. Manually step down the Replay-Counter in the Backbox down to Zero, see the switch open ? TRUELY*** open ? With this You (kind of) cut the direct wire to the V-Relay. Then plug-in and toggle-on --- the motor is allowed to turn a bit - coming to the next Home-Position - then the motor must stop. The V-Relay and the S-Relay shall not activate.

IF (if, if) You toggle-on and the motor does not turn or only turns a bit and then stops in one of the three Home-Positions and the V-Relay and the S-Relay do not activate - do other relays activate ? Have some points on the Score-Drums of Player-1, wear rubber gloves or use an wooden stick - manually activate the armature of the S-Relay - what happens ?

Truely*** open - this switch is often manipulated (a blade bent or a Jumper-Wire etc.) as this is the switch to manipulate to be closed all the time when changing the pin to "Free Play". Greetings Rolf

Hi pinballbrian
in Switzerland it is getting late - time for me to go to sleep - so by now just some words.
It is good to do the following in a not functioning Gottlieb pin: Toggle-off and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - manually reset the Control-Bank (do all the relays in the Control-Bank stay resetted ?) . Then plug in and toggle-on the pin. Allowed to activate in the pin are only the QB1- / QB2-Game-Over-Relay and ZB-First-Ball-Relay - both sitting in the Control-Bank. None of all the other Relays is allowed to activate --- QB and ZB must activate.
Your first JPG in post-20 shows text: ZB First Player Relay - I think the text is wrong.
Please do the test written above and write about - till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

Hi Brian
thanks for text and picture (post-23). See the JPG --- I "marked blue" the HB-Relay, when we toggle on the pin and the Player-Unit happens to be in the position "Last ball in play": The HB-Relay is entitled to plunge.
You toggle on and by this toggling-on some of the Score-Drums of Player-1 do reset. Well, when the motor is running and the Player-Unit is in an specific position: We can accept the resetting for the moment - but soon must look at. The C-Add-Bonus-Unit-Relay is nasty - pulls-in - let go - pulls in - let go etc. Question: How fast is this behaviour - almost machine gunning ? or five times per turn of 120 degrees of the motor ? Or once per turn of 120 degrees of the motor ? - Or what ? --- write about.
In the old days (arcade times) players did all kind of nasty behaviour - banging on the Backbox or on the Front Door - trying to cheat to get plays without paying for. Other nasty habit: Toggling off the pin in the midst of a game - maybe at the time the pin was busy stepping on the Bonus Unit -
toc, toggled-off. So the manufacturers had to implement some stuff to handle these nasty habits of the players. Here Your pin believes that the Bonus-Unit is not in Home-Position - when toggling on the pin: NOW is the time to step the Unit to Home-Position - the C-Relay activates.
See at the bottom of the JPG - my "A" and my "B" - and the handwritten corrigenda - it was not me who added the handwritten text and drawings --- maybe true maybe not ... But we see that the coil of the C-Relay can get current through "my A-wiring" and / or "my B-wiring".

You may search on the Bonus-Unit the Runout-Switch with wire-red-white soldered-on, wire-blue soldered-on - opening in ONE position ?
Or we can say: When You manipulate the "switch I have marked brown A" to be always open: We then learn about: Fault happens through "B" (C-Relay does the same old fault) or happens through "A" (the C-Relay no longer does the fault) - manipulating this switch is NOT a fix --- it is just a help to learn about the place / wiring that makes the fault happen - "A or B ? - or A and B ?".
I have choosen the only Normally-Closed Switch on Relay-Q - I hope You have good acces - sneak-in a stripe of paper between the contact-points of this switch - MAKE the switch to be always open, then try the "manually resetting the Control-Bank, plugging-in, toggling-on - and now - what is the C-Relay doing ? Greetings Rolf

P.S.: You may have more than one fault in Your pin - another fault can be: Not stepping the Bonus-Unit when C-Relay is pulling.

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Hi Brian
when 2 people talk about something - (I believe) both must fully understand what the other says --- I am not sure if I fully understand Your post-26 - so I must ask.
post-26 ... I place run out switch in open position --- In a fully running Big Shot the so-called Bunus-Unit makes this switch to be open --- in one of the many positions the Bonus-Unit can be. Here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=271&picno=21606 I see Drop-Targets 1 through 7, 8 is an Eject Hole, Drop-Targets 9 through 15. Pretty much down in the JPG in post-25, encircled brown, the Bonus-Unit --- Position-Zero is drawn (pos-1 through pos-13 we must think into the schematics, ) pos-14 is drawn - this makes 15 positions. In pos-14 in the JPG shows that the Q-Ball-Return-Control-Relay gets current when the threebladed switch "ZB" is moved (means other than drawn in the schematics). When the threebladed switch "ZB" is "as drawn in the schematics": "C-Add-Bonus-Unit-Relay" cannot fire. It is not good to have the handwritten wiring and text in the schematics / JPG --- I do not know what is correct - how is it wired in Your pin (?).
post-26 ... Q-Relay quickly activates then deactivates: Lets accept this for now. DID You had the Ball in the Outhole when doing the test ?
post-26 ... same relays on control bank activate: It is better / more safe to write: In the Control-Bank the HB- and the ZB- and the QB1- and QB2-Relay activate - I assume these are the ones, do I assume correct ?
post-26 ... C-Relay does not move --- I like to read that. Up to here the big question is - post-26 ... I place run out switch in open position: Does this means You manipulate (manually) the switch to be open (when it actually would like to be closed) - or does this means You have stepped the Bonus-Unit into the one-and-only-position when the Bonus-Unit ITSELF makes the switch to be open ?

post-26 ... I then manually step up Bonus-Unit to close switch ... We are troubleshooting the Start- / Reset-Sequence in Your pin - I want to proceed in troubleshooting the Start- / Reset-Sequence so I am not really interested how Your pin reacts when You do things that are not happening in a fully running pin - I am interested in "what happens after toggling on" (((and nice and friendly the C-Relay does not activate and therefore does not make the motor to run))) - YOU then press the Credit-Button to start a new game - what happens ? Greetings Rolf

Hi Brian
I did not save me the link to the post in pinside - it may be one or more years back --- the OP wrote "have carefully checked the schematics and the pin - all the relays and switches - result: Have found two switches in the schematics - BUT have not found these switches in the pin --- and: Have found a switch in the pin - BUT this switch was not drawn in the schematics".
Pins are man-made --- schematics are man-made, now and then a fault can happen.

You bought Your schematics - with the hand-corrigenda - thats a strong sign: The corrigenda is right.
An example of a fault in a Manual: Here https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1458 in the manual on page-11 (ori-9) the last sentence (Master-Switch ...) is correct - BUT the whole text before (from the beginning to "machine can still be shut off by tapping bottom of cabinet") : This is old text, no longer valid --- well, I do not have an "Little Chief" but I do not find in the schematics "Left Flipper-Button-Switch" and I do not find the "Kick-Off Switch" in the wiring of the Self-Hold-Circuitry of the Lock-Relay - in later manuals they have the text correct, example https://www.ipdb.org/files/2253/Williams_1976_Space_Mission_Instruction_Manual_Jan_1976_no_schematics.pdf on page-11 (ori-9).

I am interested in "what happens after toggling on" (((and nice and friendly the C-Relay does not activate and therefore does not make the motor to run))) - YOU then press the Credit-Button to start a new game - what happens ? Greetings Rolf

Hi Brian
You have at least two faults in the pin - one is "not starting when You press the Start-Button / Credit-Button" the other problem is "nice, the HB-Relay plunges BUT then hums loud".
We can work on the Start-Problem and put away for a while the hum-problem - but when it comes to playing and stepping through the balls: The hum-problem will show up again.
You might as well first look at the hum-problem - look at the JPG in post-25, encircled blue: A short wire of any color runs from one side of the coil "HB" to a "drawn closed switch called HB, switch is mounted on the HB-Relay". When the Control-Bank is resetted the HB-Relay of course is resetted - THIS switch is closed. At some time current comes flowing - HB-Coil pulls, armature starts moving - armature is moving - armature comes towards end of moving - the switch open and cuts current - "mass (armature) moving has a momentum" - moves further - the armature comes to end of movement --- the HB-Relay has plunged. In Your pin the switch does not open - current flows and flows - the armature cannot move further to open the switch --- current flows and flows - relay hums and begins to heat up.
Toggle-off, unplug the main power cord - look at the HB-Relay - the short wire running from one side of the coil - running to switch mounted on the coil. Manually*** make the HB-Relay to plunge - inspect the switch - truely open ? Adjust the stationary blade - not the moved blade. Then do the test - You may have AAA "as before - relay plunges - then hums" or You may have BBB "relay does not plunge (therefore no humming)" or You may have CCC "relay plunges - no humming". We want the CCC.

Manually*** make an relay in the Control-Bank to plunge - see here http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#axrelayvideo in the video, exactly time 00:50 to 00:57 the man (I believe his name is Clay) manually activates (makes to plunge) some relays sitting in the Control-Bank. The video is actually about adjusting relays - relays You do not have in Your pin. Can You adjust the (Self-Cut) -Switch on the HB-Relay ? Greetings Rolf

Hi Brian
good, the CCC (I will write more to it). It is too late to write a long post - I will write the long post tomorrow. In short - You press the Credit-Button - nothing happens. Do You have Credits on the Replay-Counter (visible in the Backglass) ? Wear rubber gloves or use an wooden stick - instead of pressing the Replay-Buton: Actuate the armature of the S-Start-Relay --- what happens ? (don't forget to have some points on the Score-Drums of Player-1. Till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

Hi Brian
I would like to forget the Start-Procedure for a while and see if we manually can get the pin into Play - the (one, only) Player plays Ball-1. Look here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=271&picno=21610 above the center of the picture there is a Bakelite Thing - somewhat round. This is called the "Gottlieb Player Unit" - should be named "Gottlieb stepping through the Players and Balls - also for Game-Over and for Resetting Unit". It is a single-step Unit - forward forward stepping , can so make an full revolution - more forward forward - forever. Toggle-off the pin, unplug the main power cord. See the coil and the plunger on the Player-Unit --- press the plunger into the coil and let go - the retaining spring should pull the plunger back and the cam / wheel steps a step clockwise - do it again, again. Look along the axis towards the Player - see (maybe You see an steelratchet) four white cams and a black cam.
Now look at the JPG - first is the steel ratchet having 30 teeth - Gottlieb enumerates the thirty possible positions: Position-Zero, position-1, position-2, pos-3, pos-4 ... pos-29. In the JPG everything is drawn in the Position-Zero, also called Home-Position - this also is the position for "Player-1 plays Ball-1". See in the upper right corner (JPG): The black cam has only one tooth - in this Position-Zero the only tooth on the black cam lifts its switchstack - this lifting the switchstack on cam five defines "Position-Zero". Position-Zero, also called Home-Position - is also the position for Player-1 plays Ball-1 --- see that a tooth on the first white cam also lifts its switchstack. Go to Your pin, Backbox (have toggled-off the pin, unplugged the main power cord) - do manually step on the Player-Unit - step, step, step and watch the black cam. I do not know how many steps You have to do - but You should see the only tooth on the black cam coming closer to its switchstack - closer, closer, closer. And finally this only tooth on the black cam lifts its switchstack - You have Your Player-Unit in this (socalled) Position-Zero. If You do more than 30 steps: You have missed the only tooth on the black cam - try again, do another stepping, stepping.
WEAR rubber gloves - NEVER touch solderlugs / bare wires. You have the Player-Unit in Position-Zero, lift the Playfield, plug-in, toggle-on (ZB-, QB1-, QB2-, maybe HB-Relay activate) - NOW YOU manually reset the Control-Bank (You move the plunger on the Control-Bank away from You - by this You reset ALL the Relays in the Control-Bank). Now take the Playfield down - big question: Can You activate the flipperbats - can You activate targets and the bumper on the Playfield - can You (somewhat) play ? Greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
oups, sorry - I did not consider the R-Hold-Relay and the H-Tilt-Hold-Relay (when in the end of post-41 I was asking You to do a test). The R-Hold-Relay should be named "R-Severe-Tilt-Hold-Relay" and the H-Tilt-Hold-Relay should be named "H-Mild-Tilt-Hold-Relay". I call a mild Tilt when we shake the pin - shake it too much and get punished by loosing "Ball in Play". I call a severe Tilt when we bang the pin, try to cheat by hammering onto the Coin Door etc. Not only a ball is lost - all participating Players loose the game - loose all the remaing balls.

Here is an improved description of the test I like You to do: Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord. Put the Player-Unit in the Backbox in Position-Zero (is Home-Position). You may want to have some points on the Score-Drums or You may manually step them to Zero --- then lift the Playfield - You may want to manually reset the Drop-Target-Banks*** (left and right) or You let them "as is".
Wear rubber gloves (for insulation) - plug-in, toggle-on --- the ZB-, QB1-, QB2-, maybe HB-Relay activate (((or are already plunged))). NOW You press the armature on R-Hold-Relay and let go - question: Does the R-Hold-Relay stays pulling ? If "No": Please report - we MUST have this relay stay pulling - we may use some Jumper-Wire - we must have it pulling. When the R-Hold-Relay is nice and friendly and stays pulling: Please press the armature on H-Tilt-Hold-Relay and let go - question: Does the H-Tilt-Hold-Relay stays pulling ? If "No": Please report - we MUST have this relay stay pulling - we may use some Jumper-Wire - we must have it pulling.
If the R-Hold-Relay and the T-Tilt-Hold-Relay both stay pulling: Manually reset the Control-Bank - question: Is the ZB-First-BALL-Relay nice and friendly and does not hum loud ? If "Yes": Lower the playfield - big question: Can You activate the flipperbats - can You activate targets and the bumper on the Playfield - can You (somewhat) play ?

manually reset the Drop-Target-Banks***: See the JPG - the Control-Bank Reset-Coils are operated by 24VAC - well, 24VAC can kill people - exercise care, wear rubber gloves for insulation, never touch solderlugs / bare naked wires. See the JPG - the Drop-Target-Bank Reset-Coils are operated by Line-Current, 110VAC - well, 110VAC can kill people - exercise care, wear rubber gloves for insulation, never touch solderlugs / bare naked wires I strongly suggest: ONLY do manually reset the Drop-Target-Banks when You have toggled-of the pin AND have UNPLUGGED the main power cord - see the JPG, my red lines - a two-prong line plug can be plugged-in this way or reverse - You may have 110VAC-POWER on solderlugs on the reset-coils !!! Not much better when a preowner has mounted an three-prong line plug - but he has mounted wires exchanged - You may have 110VAC-POWER on solderlugs on the reset-coils !!! (((And this happened to me - a preowner has mounted an three-prong line plug - but he has mounted wires exchanged - I had 220VAC-POWER (Switzerland has 220VAC Line-Voltage) on solderlugs - I had toggled-off but not unplugged the main power cord --- it was summer, sweaty - with the naked elbow I accidentally touched an solderlug - bang - a stroke of 220VAC and I flew through my basement - please be very careful))) Greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
to Your post-46 (bottom up) - my post-44 had (has) an improved description of a test to do - AND my post-44 had (has) words of warning --- 110VAC can kill people (also 24VAC, also 6VAC) my warnings we can sum up with "ALWAYS toggle-off the pin then unplug the main power cord when You look at stuff / when You work in the pin --- ONLY plug-in / toggle-on when You need electricity for playing / for doing an test". See the first JPG (a picture of Yours) - I hope this is the wiring as You bought the pin - I hope You have not altered the wiring - please write if You did some work on the 110VAC wiring. I am pleased - the Drop-Target-Banks do reset - because You were pressing the armature on the S-Relay for a while - the motor did run --- a closed switch (You were pressing the armature) on S-Relay and closing switches on the turning motor did reset the Drop-Target-Banks.The rest (beginning of) post-46 is not so pleasing.
To post-45 - the text "High / Normal" are meant for the top lugs on the transformer - normal is about 24VAC - High is about 26VAC - we can adjust the pin to not so snappy or to be a bit more snappy. Also here (post-45) - I hope You did not work on 110VAC wiring - or (I hope) You did "as wired before".

See the second JPG - I was working on the JPG to do some theory (we will come to) --- my AA, BB, CC is for theory. Lets do some work / testing - I want the R-Relay and the H-Relay to constantly pull. See the second JPG, "my GG": NOT funny - wires in the pin may have other colors than indicated in the schematics. See the "FF and EE": Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord - do You have four 10 Amp fuses in Your pin - do they have paper tags telling "what for" ? Locate the 10 Amp fuse with wire-red / wire-red-black soldered on - see it ? Sitting next to it there is another 10 Amp fuse with wire-red / wire-black-mingled-with-red soldered-on.
I want You to use the 10 Amp fuse with wire-red / wire-red-black soldered on - side wire-red-black !!! is soldered-on - clip-on permanent set jumper-wires - here on the 10 Amp fuse, solder-lug with wire red-black soldered-on.

Main power cord is still unplugged - look at the coil on R-Relay - one side / solder-lug has two wires of color-black soldered-on --- the other side / solder-lug has hopefully soldered-on wire-color-orange-white. Main power cord is still unplugged - look at the coil on H-Relay - one side / solder-lug has two wires of color-black soldered-on --- the other side / solder-lug has hopefully soldered-on wire-color-maroon. Main power cord is still UNPLUGGED - make the two connections like shown at "EE" (two permanent set Jumper-Wires). If You do not have Jumper-Wires with gator-clips on the ends: Take insulated wires where 1 to 2 inches on the ends are bare / naked wire, wrap the bare end around an solder-lug.

You have mounted the two Jumper-Wires - have the Player-Unit in the Backbox in Home-Position - have the playfield lifted - now plug-in (be ready to immediately unplug) - now toggle-on (be ready to immediately toggle-off) - now the question: Do R-Relay and H-Relay steady pull ? (((In a functioning pin the R-Relay and the H-Relay may be steady pulling for hours))). No strange behavoir of the pin ? Then You may try to manually reset the Control-Bank. Greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
by manipulating on the wiring of R-Relay and H-Relay (Jumper-Wires) we "disturb" normal behaviour of the pin a bit. Please do again as "post-48". Then take the playfield down - put the ball into the shooter alley and launch the ball --- or by hand actuate targets on the playfield - doing so - can You make points - does the bumper kicks , the slingshot-kickers above the flipperbats kick - can You actuate the flipperbats - then loose the ball so it enters the outhole - what happens ? Greetings Rolf

Hi Brian
I hope You have some spare fuses - a fuse can blow once - due to age. If a fuse blows - and the new replacement fuse also blows: There is a problem in the pin - we may live for a while with blowing fuses - but not for very long. The situation we are in: Please do not go away having the pin plugged-in / toggled-on. Always listen for humming - does Your nose smells "burning / charcoaling paper" ? ALWAYS toggle-off / unplug the main power cord when You want to go away.

Wear rubber gloves - locate in the Backbox the L-1000-Point-Relay, the M-100-Point-Relay, the N-10-Point-Relay --- when You are "in play": Wear rubber gloves, manually press the armature on one (L- or M- or N- ) Relay and let go --- do You get points on the Score-Drum ? Does a chime rings ? Try all (L-, M-, N- ) Relays. Do You see in the Backbox lightet: "Score-Drums of Player-1" ?
Soon I will go to sleep - till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

Hi Brian
I was doing some work for a post to come --- L-1000-Point-Relay and M-100-Point-Relay (thats why in the JPG there are some marks "green, orange" - You wrote post-53 - aha, problems with the N-10-Points-Relay --- I added stuff to the JPG - marked "red": This is of interest by now (((then You wrote post-54 - I take Your information))). See in the middle of the JPG the list of relays - "N-Relay" has "7A" and further down the "R-Relay" has "2A, 1B, 1C". Type "A" is Normally-Open-Switch (closing when the relay actuates), Type "B" is Normally-Closed-Switch, Type "C" is threebladed-Make-and-Brake-Switch. I did what we often must do: I looked all over the schematics to find the 7 Type-A switches on the N-Relay --- see them in the JPG. I have "marked brown" two switches "Kicking Rubber" - I assume the two Slingshots above the flipperbats. I also have marked brown 6 switches "10 Point Contacts" - stand upright leaf switches behind rubbers (?).

Toggle-off, unplug the main power cord --- sneak-in a stripe of paper for insulation into a "Switch mounted on the N-Relay" - sneak-in ... into another switch ... and on and on - You will have sneaked-in a stripe of paper into ALL SEVEN switches on the N-Relay. Then do the "a bit complicated*** way of 'make pin running' " --- the fuse does not blow (right ?). Then manually press the armature of the N-Relay - nothing should happen as You have sneaked-in 7 stripes of paper - none of the seven switches can close --- so You manually press the armature of the N-Relay - nothing happens, right ? Write about. (Not the Slingshots, Kicking Rubbers) Try on the playfield "10 point contacts" - does the fuse blow, write about.
The N-Relay has a short wire running from one side of the coil to "switch mounted on the relay" - be careful to not touch metal - pull-out the stripe of paper out of this switch (switch has a short wire running to the coil). Manually actuate the N-Relay - does the fuse blow ? If the fuse does not blow: Pull-out another stripe of paper, out of another switch - then manually actuate the N-Relay - does the fuse blow ? If the fuse does not blow: Pull-out ... Is it clear to You - I want to find out WHICH switch on N-Relay makes the fuse to blow when (by pulling out the stripe of paper) the switch is allowed to close - to let current to flow.
When You have all the stripes of paper pulled-out - AND maually actuating the N-Relay does the fuse NOT to blow: Try the Slingshots (Kicking Rubbers). Greetings Rolf

P.S.: a bit complicated*** way --- Please do: Have the Player-Unit in Home-Position, have the Jumper-Wire on R-Relay-Coil, have the Jumper-Wire on H-Relay-Coil. Plug-in, toggle on - (wear rubber gloves) manually reset the Control-Bank.

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Hi Brian
great - good news (post-56): ... points score on drums, question (K1***): You close switches on the playfield and Player-1-Score-Drums do step ? (((Or: Only when You manually actuate the L-, M-, N-Relays ?))) ZB-Relay - please change in Your pin the text on the papertag besides the ZB-Relay to "ZB-First-BALL-Relay, I am happy the ZB-Relay plunges when You make "100 Points" or "10 Points" --- the ZB-Relay MUST plunge when You make the first time "100 Points" or "10 Points" (whichever comes first). One of the functions in a fully running pin: We start a new game - reset will be done, the ball is kicked-out, THEN we press the Credit-Button and the pin changes to "Two can play - it will be a Two-Player-Game --- ZB-Relay is still resetted. If we launch the ball - make some points (ZB-Relay therefore plunges) - then pressing the Credit-Button does start a new ONE-Player-Game --- ZB-Relay has plunged.
Bad news - hitting one of 4 Lane Switches make the QB1- and QB2-Relay to plunge - here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=271&picno=21606 and here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=271&picno=21607 --- (K2***) which 4 Lanes ? (K3***) Is the Score-Motor running when the QB1- and QB2-Relay plunge ?
Bad news - hitting one of the 14 Drop-Targets make the QB1- and QB2-Relay to plunge - (K4***) Is the Score-Motor running when the QB1- and QB2-Relay plunge ?
One of the functions of QB2/QB2 in a functioning pin: When QB1/QB2 plunge - the pin has reached "Game-Over" - the Player(s) shall no longer actuate the flipperbats (actually not only flipperbats but more stuff).
You then reset the Control-Bank and the flipperbats etc. do work again. In a functioning pin one of the last things to do when we start a new game is: Resetting the Control-Bank and kicking out the ball. The "Start-up You do (last couple of days)" is a very shortcut - You leave out almost everything - BUT You (manually) reset the Control-Bank - the pin thinks "O.K., the Start-Up has been done - Control-Bank has been resetted - we are "in Play".

Post-57 - "Switch on N-Relay" ... colors of wires: I refer to the JPG in post-47 - "my GG" in the JPG --- NOT funny: Colors of wires used in the pin can be other than what is mentioned in the schematics.

I wait for Your answers to K1***, K2***, K3***, K4*** - AND: Do You want to proceed in troubleshooting in "we play a ball" ? - Or do You want to dig-in into "Starting a new game" problems ? Greetings Rolf

Hi Brian
it is not very comfortable for You to "start" a game - but I would like to stick to "You 'start' a game and we troubleshoot on the features 'playing a ball' ". Thanks for the K1,2,3,4 and the picture with the "faulty QB1/QB2 actuating". ALL faulty switches give 500 points when unlit. The top middle lane by the girl has to do with "black 8" --- the eject hole in the middle of the playfield has also to do with "black 8", also gives 500 points --- what happens when You let the ball roll into the eject hole (respectively You park Your finger there) ? You should get 500 points, the Gate (on Playfield) on the bottom-right should open - then the ball should be kicked out of the eject hole (Your finger get hit and then You take the finger away) - what happens ?

Strange - all the stuff that faulty makes the QB1-/QB2-Relays to plunge have to do with "getting 500 points". In a mechanical pin it means "getting five times 100 points" - the D-500-Point-Relay is made to pull-in - stays pulling and with the help of the turning motor: 5 times 100 points are given to the Score-Drums. Is Your D-Relay in the Backbox ? or in the cabinet ? or on the underneathside of playfield ? When You are "in play": Press the armature of the D-Relay and let go - what happens ? It should stay pulling, the motor should make a turn of 120 degrees (5 times 100 points given) - then the motor should stop and the D-Relay should quit pulling - what happens ?

(((Great - You simulate "ball is on the playfield" - closing switches --- and You get points to the Score-Drums)))
In Switzerland it is hour 20:45 --- it is too late for waiting for Your answer, then writing another post, too late. Till tomorrow, Greetings Rolf

P.S. - bonzo71 : Thanks for reading , helping.

Hi Brian
look at the JPG see "my burgundy red PU" and the numbers 17,16,13,12,9,8,5,4. In short: Player-Unit-Home-Position is also Position-Zero (Pos-0)
is "position Player-1-plays-Ball-1 is Pl1-B1".
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-1 is Pl2-B1.
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-2 is Pl3-B1 (there is no Player-3 BUT the position exists).
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-3 is Pl4-B1 (there is no Player-4 BUT the position exists).
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-4 is Pl1-B2.
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-5 is Pl2-B2.
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-6 is Pl3-B2 (there is no Player-3 BUT the position exists).
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-7 is Pl4-B2 (there is no Player-4 BUT the position exists).
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-8 is Pl1-B3.
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-9 is Pl2-B3.
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-10 is Pl3-B3 (there is no Player-3 BUT the position exists).
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-11 is Pl4-B3 (there is no Player-4 BUT the position exists).
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-12 is Pl1-B4.
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-13 is Pl2-B4.
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-14 is Pl3-B4 (there is no Player-3 BUT the position exists).
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-15 is Pl4-B4 (there is no Player-4 BUT the position exists).
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-16 is Pl1-B5.
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-17 is Pl2-B5.
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-18 is Pl3-B5 (there is no Player-3 BUT the position exists).
We manually do a step on the Player-Unit and we have pos-19 is Pl4-B5 (there is no Player-4 BUT the position exists).
Do You see what the numbers 17,16,13,12,9,8,5,4 are for - triggering LB-2000-Bonus-Value-Relay, triggering HB-3000-Bonus-Value-Relay, triggering XB-Last-Ball-Relay. When the Player-Unit is stepped and comes to a specific position - then triggering.

Look on the bottom of the JPG, encircled brown: The Control-Bank resets when a switch on U-Control-Bank-Reset-Relay is closed AND the Score-Motor-Switch-3C is closed. Please look in Your pin at the time the Control-Bank does faulty reset - question: Does the U-Relay pull at that same time ? Does the Score-Motor turns at the same time ? There is a difference in trouble-shooting when the motor runs or not runs - when the U-Relay pulls or not pulls (at the time the Control-Bank does faulty reset).

(((side note: The Score-Motor is often called the heart of the pin - some people say: The Score-Motor is the brain of the pin. I say: The Score-Motor is not the brain - the Score-Motor is a willing helper but dumb, dull, stupid - all the motor does is: Make a turn of 120 degrees AND actuate ALL its switches - every time when turning 120 degrees - ALL motor-switches are actuated)))

When Your U-Relay is pulling (at "faulty reset of Control-Bank"): Do You see on the bottom of the JPG, encircled light-Blue: Switch named P5A --- P5A is actuated in pos-zero (Player-Unit) - please have the pin running - exercise care - do step FOUR times on the Player-Unit - You should then be in Pos-4 is Player-1-Ball-2 and this Switch P5A should be open at that time - then do the test again. Greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
things are getting complicated. With "kind of shortcuts in procedures", real solid / permanent set / established Jumper-Wires I try to cheat and try so that You can "kind of play" - You play one ball and the playfield features work - thats my goal right now.
Different results is poisonous for my "goal right now". I read post-65 "I manually reset the Control-Bank - it activates QB1 / QB2. Cannot get to reset now" - may I read as "pin is plugged-in / toggled-on - You try to manually reset the Control-Bank - but when You move the reset-arm the QB1 / QB2 try to plunge - QB1/ QB2 and Brian do fight - want one direction - want opposite direction" - if I can read it like this - see the JPG: Encircled brown is the "Self-Cut-Switch on the QB1-Relay" - this Self-Cut-Switch is open when the QB1/QB2 is, are plunged - and then when You manually reset the Control-Bank: This encircled brown Self-Cut-Switch does close as You move / reset the QB1/QB2 --- then You get faulty connection through switch (position as drawn in the schematics) named "R". The R-Relay has just one such threebladed Make-and-Brake-Switch - either the R-Relay does not pull*** - or the threebladed switch on R-Relay is faulty.
R-Relay does not pull*** - I asked You to set permanent a Jumper-Wire feeding current from fuse to coil on R-Relay --- I asked You to set permanent a Jumper-Wire feeding current from fuse to coil on H-Relay --- did You take away these permanent, needed Jumper-Wires ?

Again - this is my last post for today - till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

P.S.: Humming Coils we can let 10 to 30 seconds hummimg - then we should toggle-off to prevent overheating / damaging the coil. Can You get to "Can make reproducible / repeatable results" ? I do not say "You do things wrong" - it well can be in the pin - but without reproducible results: Troubleshooting will get very complicated.

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Hi Brian
to post-68 ...post-71: Later.
I would like to check what bonzo71 came up with (post-59 and post-67) - hmm, yes - my advices almost all have the assumption "game is wired correctly". Two switches in the schematics (may be, may be not) are far apart (schematics) but in the pin the two switches sit side by side. Some faults are almost impossible to detect when having only the schematics.

See the JPG - please answer the questions written in the JPG. The Coil on the Knocker in Your pin must have the abundant wire-black soldered-on to one lug. On the other lug of the Coil should be soldered-on wire-white-black. Well, maybe it is of other color (what color ?) - for sure You should see the same color on a Normally-Closed-Switch on W-Relay --- the W-Relay has exactly TWO Normally-Closed-Switches --- see in the JPG that "the other Normally-Closed-Switch on W-Relay" has a wire-brown (or different color) running to Replay-Button is Credit-Button.
You must see wire-color-QQQ running from one side of the Coil on the Knocker running to "Normally-Closed-Switch on W-Relay and
You must see wire-color-KKK running from Replay-Button running to "Normally-Closed-Switch on W-Relay (((I assume / hope for color-QQQ is color-white-black, color-KKK is color-brown))) Greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
it is too late to write a "regular post" - Your finger (JPG, post-69) points to the lights "One can play" rsepectively "Two can play" --- of course the first player can always play - when we start for a Two-Player-Game: The PB-2nd-Player(-can-participate-)Relay is made to plunge and so in the Backglass we see "Two can play". The way You do "start the pin" by now is such a shortcut - is incomplete --- lets put aside the "looking at PB-Relay" - lets concentrate on "playing a ball - make all the playfield-features to work". Till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

P.S.: Ooups - post-74 came in. In the schematics we see sometimes an "OR-GR" and sometimes we see an "OR+GR" for colors of wires --- OR-GR is an orange wire with small parts of green - little rectangles green. The OR+GR stands for orange and green is woven --- orange mingled with green.

Hi Brian
When You manually press the armature of "E-Relay": It must stay pulling on its own, must make the motor to run. I show some JPGs - are they "self explaining" ? Greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
do not compare the wiring in Your pin with my drawing in 2nd JPG in post-78. See the JPG here - schematics are drawn abstract - made "beautyful looking" --- see the lower part of the JPG is for electrons that want to travel, to flow: The lower part of the JPG is the same as the upper part.
A good idea is: I see in the Schematics "Switch on PB-Relay" is connected to: Switch on ZB-Relay, Switch on V-Relay, Coil on V-Relay. So I look in the pin at all the mentioned switches and coils and check: Wire soldered-on on this solderlug (?) switches clean (?) switches actuate as intended (I manually activate the relay - do switches that want to open TRUELY open etc.) Greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
some time has passed - where are we at (?). From about post-77 we are on the #8-Eject-Hole -Relay. Thanks for post-80. Again - an schematics is "abstract, drawn beautyful" - electrically spoken the schematics is true - BUT in the pin wires run to here and there - always using existing solderlugs to be soldered-on.

I recall post-78 - when You manually press the armature of "E-Relay" - does it stay pulling for a while ? does the motor runs for a turn of 120 degrees ?

Great the resetting of the Drop-Targets do not make the Game-Over-Relay --- and when You hit such a target - and it drops - Game-Over-Relay ?
Please write what You want to have a look at - the next problem is ... Greetings Rolf

Hi Brian
in Your pin the text near / below the ZB-Relay is faulty - it should read "ZB-First-Ball-Relay". I would like to have it named +/- "ZB-Relay that plunges when the very first ball of a newly started (and so the Control-Bank is resetted) game makes the first some points - NOW the game really is in play". I am pleased to read in Your post-85: ZB-Relay actuate when the ball makes the first some points.
There is only one QB-Game-Over-Relay in my "Far Out" - it has 2A, 3B, 1C switches on the relay --- Your QB1- and QB2-Game-Over-Relay have 1A, 4+1=5B, 1C switches --- strange that Gottlieb made two mechanism - Your schematics says to QB2- "no coil" - Your QB-1- and QB2-Game-Over-Relay always work in unison. I would like to have it / them named +/- "QB-Relay that plunges when a game is completely over". I am not pleased to read in Your post-85: "QB-Relay actuates when playing a ball".
I am pleased to read in Your post-85 "When toggling-on the pin: ZB-Relay and QB1- and QB2-Relay actuate". Please take as a fact: Gottlieb - when we toggle-on an Gottlieb pin - want to have the pin in true state "Game Over" - when for some reason the QB1- and QB2-Relay are not plunged when we toggle-on: The pin makes them to plunge. True state "Game Over" implies "all the balls were played in the game before" - therefore points are made therefore the ZB-Relay has actuated (on the first ball played in the game before) - so when we toggle-on and the ZB-Relay for some reasons is not actuted: The pin makes the ZB-Relay to actuate when we toggle-on.

I take "I (You) do manually activate the E-Relay - it does not stay pulled (nice to read: The motor makes a turn of 120 degrees)" - the E-Relay must stay pulling. In the beginning of this topic we were trying to start a new game by pressing the Replay-Button - no luck. See in the JPGs in post-78 the long (yellow) wire from the Self-Hold-Switch on E-Relay to motor-2B-switch - then comes the "Anti-Cheat-Switch". See that the P-, O-, V-, S-, W-Relays all have their "Self-Hold-Circuitry" through motor-2B / Anti-Cheat-Switch. I first would look at the Anti-Cheat-Switch on Your Coin-Door - a weighted switch - it must be closed. See the JPG here - my Far Out has this Anti-Cheat-Switch behind the "pushbutton for to return coins".
Hmm, it is getting late - I will write more by tomorrow. Greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
sorry for late writing - I had two busy days. Its no good when I write a post late in the evening - I do not completely think it over - I do mistakes, hmm. The Anti-Cheat-Switch (one of the Slam(-Tilt)-Switches) I showed in the JPG in post-86 on my Far Out is located behind the "Replay-Button / Start Button" - is not located behind the "pushbutton for to return coins" - here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1727&picno=19013 two Coin-Slots and two Return-Knobs and somewhat in the middle the Replay-Button.

I hope You did not invest hours on checking the Anti-Cheat-Switch in Your pin (((I did not completely think it over --- You toggle-on Your pin, then manually activate the R-Relay and the H-Relay. They stay pulling forever --- see the JPG, marked green: The R-Relay has "Self-Hold-Circuitry through this Anti-Cheat-Switch" - so switch is good))).

In question is Motor-2B-Switch, the inside switch. If this switch is faulty "always open": The Self-Hold-Circuitry of many relays (we are now on the E-Relay), the circuitry is cut due to "switch is faulty always open". Some people don't mind to work on motor-switches - I do some tests - maybe I do Extra-Work - I only do work on motor-switches when I have proof the switch is faulty.
I suggest You LOOK at motor-2B, inside switch - look here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair#Gottlieb.C2.AE_Score_Motor
do You see the switch happens to be faulty open when the motor is at rest, is not running ? Then You may want to bend the stationary blade. When You not see the switch "faulty always open": Write and we then do some more testing - using the JPG, "marked blue" stuff - You need a friend to help, its a bit complicated to write - I hope for luck, I hope You clearly see "motor-2B, inside switch" is faulty always open - You adjust and then the E-Relay stays pulling when manually activated. Greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
I disregard completely post-88. To post-89: By now You have "motor makes a turn of 120 degrees and stops --- the three switches (see JPG) are 'closed - closed - open' " - this is good.

You "still have no power to E-Relay" is maybe O.K., is maybe not O.K. . (pin is running) when You manually activate the E-Relay You close the Self-Hold-Switch on E-Relay THEN the E-Relay should stay pulling while the motor does a turn of 120 degrees, E-Relay should quit pulling after about 110 degrees of turning of the motor. What do You have - the maybe O.K. or the maybe not O.K. ?

You toggle-on the pin and the HB-Relay in the Control-Bank plunges --- see the JPG in post-64: Player-Unit positions 17 16 13 12 9 8 5 4 --- remember the "Home-Position is position-Zero is when the only tooth on the black cam / cam-4 lifts its switchstack". Before You toggle-on the pin You must manually step the Player-Unit to Home-Position is pos-Zero, then You toggle-on and now what is the HB-Relay doing ?

You make the first some points and the ZB-Relay in the Control-Bank plunges - good, it must plunge.

You make additional points and the QB1- / QB2-Relay in the Control-Bank plunge --- see the JPG in post-66 - the QB1- (and unison the QB2) -Relay plunge when the R-Relay is not pulling and so the threebladed, encircled brown Switch on R-Relay is as shown in the schematics.
The way You must do a "start" by now is: You have toggled-of/ unplugged the main power cord - You manually step the Player-Unit to Home-Position is position-Zero - You plug-in and toggle-on and press the armature on R-Relay - it must stay pulling (does it ?) - You press the armature on H-Relay - it must stay pulling (does it ?) - You manually reset the Control-Bank - You make the first points and the ZB-Relay plunges - You make additional points - and ??? (QB1/QB2 ?)

I stop here and wait for Your answer - then we will take the JPG in post-87 (my blue wiring) and proceed on chasing "problem on E-Relay" - we will use two Jumper-Wires - but wait on this "Jumper-Wires using". Greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
lets use Jumper-Wires. It is no good feeling to advise "establish permanent connection(s) with Jumper-Wire(s) - then plug-in / toggle-on / start a game" - the pin may act very strange. I feel much better by giving the advice "toggle-off, unplug the main power cord - clip-on a Jumper-Wire and take the other end of the Jumper-Wire out (maybe through the open Coin-Door) into the open - this other end of the Jumper-Wire shall hang free or shall lay on wood - not touching metal" --- then "clip-on a second Jumper-Wire and take the other end of the Jumper-Wire out (maybe through the open Coin-Door) into the open - this other end of the Jumper-Wire shall hang free or shall lay on wood - not touching metal". These two Jumper-Wires do not touch each other. You then plug-in, toggle-on, "start" a game --- wait until the pin comes to idle / doing nothing. NOW*** is the time to do testing - wear rubber gloves - You hold one Jumper-Wire in one hand and You hold the other Jumper-Wire in the other hand - You move Your hands - You make connection for a moment --- nothing happens - You make permanent connection by clipping together the ends of the two Jumper-Wires. Then You manually activate the armature of E-Relay - questions: Does the E-Relay pulls ? stays pulling ? does the motor run ? does the Kicker on the #8-Hole kicks ? If "all Yes": Toggle-off the pin, unplug, take away the two Jumper-Wires. Write about. If "some No": Toggle-off the pin, unplug, take away the two Jumper-Wires. Write about.

Clipping-on the first Jumper-Wire: See post-90, JPG lower-left --- a short wire runs from one side of the "Coil on E-Relay" to switch mounted on the E-Relay - THIS switch but clip-on at the OTHER blade /solder-lug. Take the other end of the Jumper-Wire out into the open.

Clippin-on the second Jumper-Wire: (colors of wire in the schematics may be other than color of wire used in the pin) The R-Relay has 2A, 1B, 1C switches - two normally open switches, one normally closed switch (not of interest by now), one threebladed make-and-brake switch (not of interest by now).
One of the normally open switches (on R-Relay) should have soldered-on wire-of-color-maroon, wire-of-color-maroon-mingled-with-white. The other normally open switch (on R-Relay) should have soldered-on wire-of-color-slate, wire-of-color-black-white. Are we lucky and You see these two switches and the mentioned wire-colors ? (((wire-of-color-maroon You also should see on Coil on H-Relay, wire-of-color-maroon-mingled-with-white You also should see on switch on T-Tilt-Relay))).
Clippin-on the second Jumper-Wire: Clip-on at "Normally-Open-Switch on R-Relay, side wire-slate is soldered-on. Take the other end of the Jumper-Wire out into the open.

You now have the two Jumper-Wires clipped-on, the other ends of the Jumper-Wires come out into the open not touching a thing.
Plug-in, toggle-on, start a game --- wait until the pin comes to idle / doing nothing. NOW*** is the time to do testing (see my description above).
With this test we test "Coil on E-Relay, Switch on E-Relay". Do not let the E-Relay pulling longer than +/- one minute. Greetings Rolf

Hi Brian
thanks for post-94, text and JPG. I would like You to do exactly the test I suggested (detailled description). Your report of "result(s) of test" I then use to suggest the next test. You have the schematics and the pin - I only have the schematics.
A two-bladed switch has two solderlugs and on each lug is soldered-on one (maybe more) wire of a color - in Your pin the color may be other than shown in the schematics - as I only have the schematics You must write / tell the color used in the schematics. With the color You mention I can look-up in the schematics and I can see which side / which blade of the switch You touch with the Jumper-Wire.
I assume You have clipped-on the Jumper-Wire at "Normally-Open-Switch on R-Relay, wire / solderlug 'Slate' (((the other blade / solderlug has wire-color-Blue-White soldered-on)))".
With the other end of the Jumper-Wire You touch "Self-Hold-Switch on E-Relay BUT WHICH side / blade / Solderlug-wire-of-color-???" ?
With the other end of the Jumper-Wire You touch "Switch on playfield called #8-Hole-Switch - BUT WHICH side / blade / Solderlug-wire-of-color-???" ?
On the schematics I see With the other end of the Jumper-Wire You touch "Self-Hold-Switch on E-Relay side Black-White-Red, having the short wire to the coil": The E-Relay MUST fire.
On the schematics I see With the other end of the Jumper-Wire You touch "Self-Hold-Switch on E-Relay side Maroon-Green, not-having the short wire to the coil": The E-Relay is not allowed to fire.
On the schematics I see With the other end of the Jumper-Wire You touch "Switch on playfield called #8-Hole-Switch - side Black-White-Red": The E-Relay MUST fire.
On the schematics I see With the other end of the Jumper-Wire You touch "Switch on playfield called #8-Hole-Switch - side Yellow-Blue": The E-Relay is not allowed to fire.
What did You touch / jumper to ? What happens when You do "test described in post-93 ? Greetings Rolf

Hi Brian
I like most helping on a pin I also have (see my collection), second "helping on a pin I used to play in the 1970ies", third "helping on a four- or two-player pin", fourth "helping on a one-player pin". Your pin is of second category - I heavily played the "Hot Shot" in the 1970ies.

Sorry - today I do not post about troubleshooting - I am busy getting ready for "going out tonight" - till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

Hi Brian
first some theory - see the JPG. When I have good access I sometimes do "method-"dangerous" when I do a test. When it is tricky to get to the stuff I do method-"save". Not shown in the JPG is method-"save-de-luxe" - I have an Jumper-Wire with an doorbell-pushbutton in the wire
I toggle-off the pin, unplug the main power-cord prepare / install the Jumper-Wire(s).

method-save and method-save-de-luxe: I plug-in, toggle-on, may start a game --- when its time to do the test I make connection.
method-dangerous: I MUST lay down the bare end of the Jumper-Wire on wood or I must have the bare end of the Jumper-Wire hang free --- I NEVER touch the bare end - the bare end NEVER touches metal stuff - I plug-in, toggle-on, may start a game - when its time for the test I hold the insulation (of the Jumper-Wire) near the bare end of the Jumper-wire and touch / make connection - then I again lay down the bare end of the Jumper-Wire on wood. This is what I show on top of the JPG.

Middle of the JPG: I used different colors on the wiring --- when we do tests we usually assume "my brown" is good, we have connection "coil to transformer-return-side". We also usually assume the thin wire of the coil is soldered-on on its solder-lug, we also usually assume "coil (windings) is good". So usually the first test we do questioning "does the coil fires when we force connection by jumpering" --- first test (when looking at a problematic coil) we do is as shown on top of the JPG.

Bottom of JPG: First test (A), second test (B) etc. First question "does the coil fire when we force connection (by method-dangerous or method-save or method-de-luxe-save), A.
When the answer is "Yes": Test-B etc.
When we do Test-D: We also must manually close the #8Hole-Switch on the playfield.
When we do Test-E: We also must manually actuate the armature on E-Relay so the "switch named E" closes.

Testing - Brian it is up to You doing "method-dangerous or method-save or method-save-de-luxe". I show on the bottom of the JPG ALL fuses in Your pin - can You identify all Your fuses ? Have the pin toggled-off, main power cord unplugged - clip-on a Jumper-Wire at 24VAC-fuse-side-wire-red-black-is-soldered-on (we want the fuse in our jumpering-circuitry). Then plug-in, toggle-on, do the first test (Test-A) - DOES the Coil on E-Relay fire when You force connection ?
When "No": Write about.
When "Yes": Proceed with second (B), third (C) etc. test - write about the results. Greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
thanks for post-100, good news. You say "also coin door coil activates" --- question: (only) with Jumper-Wires in use or "coin door coil activates when no Jumper-wire is used" ?

A while ago HowardR suggested the "safety pin (use) trick" - I tried it and the "safety pin trick" worked in my pinball machine. For this trick we need wires having fabric-insulation - when a wire has rubber / nylon / plastic insulation: It is hard to impossible to do the safety pin trick.
You have made the "A,B,C,D,E" tests having a Jumper-Wire clipped-on at 24VAC-10Amp-Fuse-Holder. Wire-red-black is soldered-on there. Question: Is the insulation on wire-red-black made of fabric ? or rubber / nylon / plastic ? I hope for "made of fabric". (Toggle-off, unplug the main power cord) Unclip the Jumper-Wire, take a safety pin - almost parallel to the running wire-red-black: Insert the tip of the safety pin through the fabric into the wire (push hard) so the tip of the safety pin gets into contact with the wire. Then clip-on the Jumper-Wire - on the safety pin. (Plug-in, toggle-on) Then do test "A" - the E-Relay-Coil fires (?) You have proven "Safety-Pin trick" works.

Now the real thing - the safety pin inserted in another place - see the JPG --- the safety-pin inserted somewhere into "my wire-orange is wire-maroon-green in the schematics is hopefully also wire-maroon-green in Your pinball-machine". See in the JPG the motor-switches on 1C, 1C, 1D, 2B - there is a wire (hopefully having fabric-insulation) connecting one blade/solderlug on each switch --- look for the best place to insert the tip of the safety-pin into this connecting wire. Then clip-on the Jumper-Wire at the safety-pin and to the tests "(A, B, C,) D, E" - big Question: Does the coil on E-Relay fire ?
When "Yes": fine.
When "No": Either motor-switch-2B is no good or the connecting wire "motor-2B to Anti-Cheat-Switch" is no good or Anti-Cheat-Switch is no good or connecting wire "Anti-Cheat-Switch to 24VAC-10Amp-Fuse (through Bounce-Switch)" is no good. Greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
thanks for testing and post-102. I am perplex / totally confused when I read post-102 and try to understand what I believe I read --- I must ask to be sure I understand correct.
You did "A, B, C, D, E tests" using as clip-on- / starting-point: Fuseholder, 24VAC-10Amp fuse. You got action on E-Relay. I then asked You to change the clip-on- / starting-point to: Connecting wire motor-1C, motor-1C, motor-1D, motor-2B AND do testing the "A, B, C, D, E tests" - testing towards the E-Relay-Coil.
And now my problem of understanding - You write in post-102: "only coin-door activates on some tests , when connecting jumper to 2B then nothing happens" --- I read "when connecting jumper to 2B then coin-door does NOT activate". See the bottom of the JPG - see the "Coin-Lockout-Coil is Your coin-door stuff" is connected to the Fuseholder, 24VAC-10Amp fuse through two always closed Slam-Tilt-Switches --- the "Coin-Lockout-Coil is Your coin-door stuff" MUST pull-in and stay pulling when You plug-in, toggle-on the pin. I am confused - what is the "Coin-Lockout-Coil is Your coin-door stuff" doing when You have no jumperwires set ?

I have been working on the JPG (middle part of JPG) - before proceeding I must ask (see above). Greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
my ideal of a topic is a good title (with the name of the pin) and 10 to 20 posts. This topic has more than 100 posts. Nobody that lands here will read all the posts - he will read post-1 and the last post. So whenever in the near future You think "this is a good time to end this topic (because we could fix a major problem)": Write a short summary in here - then start a new topic with a short description "this is not working" - I will participate in the new topic.

To post-104: Good, You plug-in, toggle-on and the door coin coil activates and stays pulling. You then manually activate the E-Relay, it stays pulling, motor runs then the kicker kicks - all good. The following of the description in post-104 is not very pleasing because Just before the motor stops: E-Relay must quit pulling. The R-Relay should not start pulling on its own - most of all: The R-Relay shall never quits pulling - the R-Relay is the Hold-Relay that quits pulling when we do a SEVERE Tilt - You are nice and friendly to the pin so You never do a severe Tilt so the R-Relay should be pulling forever.

Further on in post-104 You write "but good news ..." and the end of Your post-104 is very pleasing. Can You reproduce Your test (manually activating the E-Relay) - do You always get the same, very pleasing results ?

You did not write - I Hope You do it every time: You have the Player-Unit in Home-Position is position-Zero, You plug-in, toggle-on the pin. You THEN manually activate the R-Relay and it stays pulling forever. You then manually activate the H-Relay and it stays pulling forever. You then manually reset the Control-Bank. Then You do tests (example of a test: Manually activating the E-Relay). Do this "crummy start-up" every time. Write about the R-Relay and the H-Relay - do they stay pulling forever ? Greetings Rolf

Hi Brian
lets proceed a bit in this topic - the "not pulling forever" of R-Relay and H-Relay is a rare fault - lets (try to) fix it - then maybe start a new topic.
The reason why You could actuate the E-Relay when the R-Relay (and the H-Relay) is not pulling:
The non-pulling H-Relay (among others) caused by "R-Relay quits pulling and so opens a switch (my red star in the JPG) to make the H-Relay non-pulling" - H-Relay controls a lot of playfield stuff --- when we bang a tilt: the playfield shall be dead - BUT when a ball happens to be in the #8-Hole - the ball must be kicked out and roll down into the Outhole for to resume "normal playing after the tilt" - so the E-Relay stuff is NOT controlled by the H-Relay.

To understand the drawing of switches in the schematics / JPG we must know how the schematics is drawn: A new Game has been started, after resetting - the ball has been kicked-over to the shooter-alley - NOW the pin is toggled OFF - so relays beeing steady pulling (R-Relay and H-Relay) quit pulling. Then the schematics is drawn. So when we are playing the pin the R-Relay is constantly pulling, Switch "my red star" and switches "my red two stars" are moved - OTHER than drawn in the schematics. (((Also all the switches on H-Relay are "other than shown" when we are playing.)))

Once activated the R-Relay MUST stay pulling forever. For troubleshooting look at the bottom of the JPG in post-103 - "Coil on R-Relay - wire-OR-WH - Lightbox-Tilt-Switch - wire-BL-WH - switch on R-Relay" - clean the two mentioned switches, look for broken-off wire.
(((When no luck in troubleshooting: We will use a permanent set Jumper-Wire "coil on R-Relay side wire-orange-white" connected to 24VAC, 10Amp fuse and make the R-Relay constantly pulling when the pin is toggled-on))) This is my last post for today, greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
"You have changed a couple of wires in the pin ..." the way You work in Your pin makes me shiver. When I work on one of my pins: I only do what I must do - not more. I do many tests (using Jumper-Wires and Test-Lights) - only when I have proven "THERE is a fault": I then work (fix) ONLY there. Every time we do some work - chances are: We sneak-in an weird acting new fault - maybe with some strange interaction with other stuff in the pin. A simple example: We have lifted the playfield and we do some soldering*** somewhere - a drop of solder falls into the cabinet - falls on a motor-switch-blade and the adjacent switchblade - making faulty connection --- and the pin may act very strange. The pulling-in of the R-Relay for a second is a very nonpleasing mystery to me --- O.K., specific - among other, the R-Relay is in the pin for to start a new game after the previous game has ended ab-normal. So specific - the R-Relay we can force to stay pulling forever (using a permanent set Jumper-Wire) but You must put a paper on the apron telling: NEVER toggle-off the pin when there are still balls to play - ALWAYS play all the balls until You have reached "Game-Over".

One black wire or two black wires ? See the JPG, left is the schematics, drawn abstract, Relays are grouped by "stuff not controlled by switch on R-Relay" - "stuff not controlled by another relay-switch" ... on top of a schematics usually are shown the flipper-coils. The way the wires connect in the pin is other - grouped by "cabinet" - "playfield" - "backbox" - stuff sitting side by side in the schematics probably are far apart in the pin (one is in the cabinet - the other is in the backbox).
One black wire or two black wires ? - see on the right in the JPG: One Wire-Black hops from one coil to the next coil - when we just look at the solderlug on one coil we say: "I see two black wires".

soldering*** - I put an old towel over the bottom stuff in the cabinet when I want to solder on the lifted playfield --- to hinder "a drop of solder falls onto switchbades". Greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
I do understand parts of post-113 - I do not understand other parts.
I understand: When I (You) toggle-on the pin then the Coin-Lockout-Coil on the does activate and stays pulling - good, it must do this.
I understand: The motor does not run when toggling-on - good - the motor is a helper for features that have subfeatures timed "one after the other" --- toggling-on does not need help of a turn of the motor.
I understand: I (You) can manually activate R-Relay, it stays pulling, hums a bit - good that it stays pulling, it must --- many relays hum a bit - AC-Current makes the humming.
I understand: Also the H-Relay ...

I point out: (complicated*** start) The "start-up" You must do is not a real start - we run into severe problems trying to do a real start - the start-up You must do (as kind of a work-around) is everytime You plug-in, toggle-on --- THEN You must manually activate the R-Relay (and it must stay pulling) - then You must manually activate the H-Relay (and it must stay pulling) - THEN You must manually reset the Control-Bank. Then You can do some playfield test / play a bit.

I do not understand: I (You) do not understand power source, orange-white-wire to Tilt-Switch - then blue-white-wire to S-Relay / R-Relay. Do You talk about "Coil on R-Relay" ? See bottom of the JPG in post-103 - one side of "Coil on R-Relay" has connection, wire-black to transformer (return-side) - the other "Coil on R-Relay" has the wiring - to Backbox- (Lightbox) -Slam-Tilt-Switch - to "Anti-Cheat-Switch (also a Slam-Tilt-Switch)" - on its way the wire is also soldered-on other places ("switch on S-Relay" / "switch*** on R-Relay") --- in the JPG from "Anti-Cheat-Switch" down to "Bounce-Switch (another Slam-Tilt-Switch)" - then through the fuse to transformer-HOT-side.
You learned about "Self-Hold-Switch on E-Relay". The R-Relay also have an Self-Hold-Switch - its the "switch*** on R-Relay" --- the reason why Gottlieb put the Lightbox-Tilt-Switch in the wiring: Not very clear - we are nice and friendly to the pin - we never beat the pin - in our pins the Slam-Tilt-Switches are always closed --- we can treat the schematics as if there was an connecting wire (in place where actually is an Slam-Tilt-Switch) - so we can say "R-Relay has its Self-Hold-Switch to feed forever the Coil on R-Relay".
Back to post-113, I do not understand: But one black wire leads to "Start-Lug on transformer", does not make logic to me (You) --- hmm, what is "Start-Lug on transformer" ? See on the bottom of the JPG in post-103: On the 24 / 25 VAC-side on the transformer are two lugs - one lug has soldered-on "Wire-Black" - this is Transformer-Return-side --- the other lug on the transformer has soldered-on wire-red running to the fuse - this is transformer-HOT-side.
It does not matter how many wires "black" are soldered-on on transformer-return-side - important is: ALL coils have on one side of the coil a wire-black to transformer-return-side.
You may have to use more / other words to explain what You do not understand.

The rest of post-113 I do not understand --- we have (talked of) "Coil on R-Relay", "Coil on H-Relay"^, motor running / not running --- switches on motor / relays / Slam-Tilt-Switches Transformer-Lugs - please write again - using other words - describing what You do not understand.

Please always do the "complicated start" before doing a test / playing. Greetings Rolf

Hi Brian and fellow pinsiders
I must come to an halt - I am german speaking - I am familiar with the european 220VAC and the swiss wire colors on 2-prong and 3-prong connecting cables on pins and other electrical stuff.
The pins imported into Switzerland are most of type I show in the JPG "0Orbit-Transformer" - can be changed 110 VAC --- 220VAC. I do not know about "USA - 110VAC".
Please, american pinsiders: Write here about the wiring (((I believe that on "my red G" the Safety-earthening-cable of a 3-prong main power cord can be attached (?) ))) - what is "C - Start" ? is it simply "wire-black on the secundary (24VAC and 6VAC) side" ?

Brian - If nobody answers You then must start a new topic (new topics are always interesting) asking about wiring (feel free to use my JPGs - I do not understand "Your connection to Start-Lug" --- You first must have Your transformer hooked-up "right" before we can proceed in trouble-shooting other problems --- Danger, 110VAC can kill people (also 24VAC, 6VAC can kill people). This is my last post for today, greetings Rolf

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Hi Brian
post-118 and post-119 have the same text - post-118 has a JPG, post-119 has no JPG - I address post-118.
Nice to read the good news in post-118 - You change orange-white-wire and blue-white-wire on the Backbox-Tilt-Switch ... R-Relay pulls-in, stays pulling. This is nice to read but it is a miracle to me - I must use plenty of fantasy to give an explanation for the behaviour of R-Relay.
See the JPG - my "1 2 3 4" --- the Lightbox Tilt Switch should be / must be always closed so on "1" the Coil on R-Relay gets current and therefore pulls. When we excange wires (see "2") the switch is also closed and the Coil on R-Relay gets current and pulls.
When the Lightbox Tilt Switch is faulty open (see "3"): No current can reach the coil --- no pulling.
And when we exchange the wires (see "4"): The Switch is still open - no current can reach the coil --- no pulling - BUT YOU write (post-118): Relay pulls. So I have questions: How many wires are soldered-on on blade-1 of the Lightbox Tilt Switch ? How many wires are soldered-on on blade-2 of the Lightbox Tilt Switch ? Is the Lightbox Tilt Switch mounted "sitting on a bare wire - having contact with this bare wire" ? At the time the R-Relay is (nicely) stay pulling": Does the S-Relay pulls at this time ?
I grumble about "You do not exactly what I asked You to do" --- a long time ago we were trying to fix the "starting a new game", we had problems so I said: Lets try to make the pin letting You play a ball --- so I didnt ask You to actuate the S-Relay as well as I didnt ask You to press the Start-Button - read in post-114 my "I point out ...".

The JPG in post-118 looks to me as "mech panel / bottom bord in the cabinet" --- I do not see the Lightbox Tilt Switch in the JPG. The color of wire You have Your fingers at: white-blue (((not blue-white))) - question: What Relays have this wire-white-blue ? soldered-on on switches ? or on the coil(s) ? I ask for the names of the relays.

Unfortunately no pinsider read my "cry for help (post-117)" --- I ask You: In the first JPG in post-117 - "my C", the text on the transformer "Start": Dou You have on Your transformer "just above my C": Do You have an Solder-Lug with wire-black ? maybe two wires-black ? And wire-black runs to solderlugs on coils ?
Another question - In the first JPG in post-117 - "my D": Do You have on Your transformer "just above my D": Do You have an Solder-Lug ? And a bit to the right in the JPG: Do You have another Solder-Lug ? What I wrote in the beginning of post-117 is still true. Greetings Rolf

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