Rochester, NY
Will do!! Thank you!
(Topic ID: 293848)
Linked Games
Big Shot
Gottlieb, 1974
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Quoted from bonzo71:Not sure if I'm helping or not, but there's been a few topics about the bonus system for this game. I spent quite a bit of time adjusting and cleaning relays and nothing seemed to get mine 100% right until someone suggested adjusting the travel of the metal plunger that gets pulled into the coil on the bonus stepper. The adjustment is make by loosening the fasteners that hold the coil in place. Once loose, the coil can be moved slightly up and down. I had to adjust the coil so that each step advanced the stepper once. This stepper is very fast and sometimes is was skipping a position causing the bonus count to be lower than expected.
This also fixed my problem. You must watch the travel of the stepper when it's scoring. The lever on mine wouldn't allow it to travel down low enough to catch the next cog on the stepper gear.
IMG_0733_LI (resized).jpgIMG_0735_LI (resized).jpgIMG_0736_LI (resized).jpgWow, I really got in there tonight and cleaned everything, took the coil out and saw some unbelievable filth and noticed that this unit works extremely hard! You were correct! The ratchet was not falling into the notch on the gear, it was falling on the tooth itself. I adjusted one of the stoppers and the coil and now it falls into place perfectly. See before and after pictures.... The third picture is a shot of one of the stoppers, it gets slammed so hard when the arm hits it, a groove formed over the years! It will eventually make its way right through the steel and have to be replaced.
IMG_20210528_200021 (resized).jpgIMG_20210528_204640 (resized).jpgIMG_20210528_204700 (resized).jpgOkay gave it a test run and although not perfect, much better on the end of ball bonus scoring. We're at about 85 - 90%, it's still misses a few thousand here and there but far better than it was before. Game ends now, and match appears and awards a free game via the knocker. So for now all I can see left is trying to figure out why that 100's reel fails to reset to zero at start-up...
The other thing is: I have yet to test scoring and reels in the Player 2 position, the window is dark and I guess I don't know how to get a second player to come up. Is there a machine setting? Wish I had the manual ...
Quoted from Flip-it-good:how to get a second player to come up
If the Replay Button relay (V) doesn't activate when you press the Replay button to add a 2nd player, Starting with the normally closed switch on the 2nd Player relay (PB), Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-big-shot-repair#post-6305153
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156
pasted_image (resized).pngQuoted from Flip-it-good:In the last video all the reels went to zero and I was very excited but last night I tested a couple more games and its doing the same thing now, hundreds reel will not reset. Is there another line of connectors or switches that lead to that reel?
there's only three switches and the coil in the score reel reset circuit.
- motor 4A. The other reels reset, so that must be good
- reel runout switch. You jumpered that closed, so it's not that
- the coil. If hundreds reel increments every time you score 100 pts or manually close the M relay, then the coil is ok
- player unit switch P3B. Logically it's the only thing left. You'll need to look at when that switch closes or you can jumper it and every motor 4A pulse should increment the 100's reel until the runout switch opens.
when logic fails, it's possible you have a wire issue or a poor solder joint. Use your jumper to connect things that an existing wire should be connecting, or hop over a couple switches if you want. e.g. jumper the or-bl wire on P3B switch to the "add 1st hundred unit" or-red coil wire and activate the motor 4A switch stack by hand to see if the reel increments.
intermittent behavior usually means a switch isn't closing well. Either it's cruddy, badly pitted or barely closing. You want overtravel so the moving/long blade visibly deflects the other/short blade after the contacts touch. Easy to get overtravel when the stack is being mechanically pushed by a cam, relay lifter, etc., doesn't happen much when it's just the long blade tension resting against the short blade.
I will check the two previous posts but now the machine is doing something else...
When I turn it on and start a game everything resets, flippers work, scoring works, but the playfield goes dark and TILT is lit on the backglass and the Tilt relay (T) is buzzing feverishly. Yet, scoring and flippers work?
Puzzled...
Great feedback, will follow these steps as soon as I figure out the new problem. Now, start button resets target banks but not main bank. When reset manually, game is active but no score reel resets or normal start sequence.... yet, ball kicks out and machine plays. When ball drains, bonuses score and ball kicks out to shooter lane. But, ball count does not change, stays on ball one....Continuous play....
One step forward, two steps back!
You can catch all the fabulous frustration in this link.... 
I actually tried that, the lights went on in Player 2 window and then back to player one. Pressed start and same outcome...
Based on the start up sequence, the start button is triggering the score motor..so you are good through step 3. Is he SB1 relay tripping(on the reset bank)? If not, check switch 2C on the score motor and the switches on on the "S" relay.
If at any time you've loosened the wing nuts on the reset bank and pivoted the bank up o check the witches, make sure reset bank back in its home position and the wing nuts are tight. If the reset bank switches are not straight and tight in its frame, there will be problems.
According to the schematic the score motor switch stacks start at A on the bottom then going up to B then C then D and there's even an E position at the very top which I don't think has any switches in it. So when you say switch 2C on the score motor that's the second set of switches, third set up from the bottom... is that correct?
Quoted from Flip-it-good:According to the schematic the score motor switch stacks start at A on the bottom then going up to B then C then D and there's even an E position at the very top which I don't think has any switches in it. So when you say switch 2C on the score motor that's the second set of switches, third set up from the bottom... is that correct?
C=The upper disk level. 2=the switch position as labeled on your score motor(if it hasnt fallen off or isnt covered in grime). Here is a chart that may help:
Here is a photo of my Hot Shot(4 player) and the c2 area between my fingers). Check all switches at c2.
20210601_171712 (resized).jpg
Bingo!.... the black bracket that rides along the edge of the motor disc at 2C was shifted and stuck so all the switches remained closed all the time! It was not riding on the wheel.
Problem solved. Game resets, reels lock in at zero and we're back to trying to figure out how to activate Player 2...
Now I remember what I did yesterday...I dropped a screw after repairing the flipper linkages and it landed underneath the score motor. I tilted the motor up to grab the screw and it slipped out of my hand and dropped really hard back into position. I'm pretty sure that's what shifted that black arm/bracket!
IMG_20210601_175112 (resized).jpg
Before we try to figure out how to activate player two there's the issue of the mystery yellow wire that was in here when I bought the machine it is soldered at Position #1 level B on the score motor.. (see picture) the other end of the yellow wire was just sitting in the cabinet and went nowhere but I did follow the green and white wire that comes off of that switch contact and it goes all the way into to the back box into the player unit and is attached to the cam furthest away from the metal gear in that unit... (See next pic). Wanted to include this in case it had something to do with player two not starting or maybe they rigged it with a hack because it wasn't working correctly, not sure.
IMG_20210601_180856 (resized).jpgIMG_20210601_181157 (resized).jpg
Step 7 of the start up sequence indicates the 2nd player relay, (pb) on the reset bank, is triggered when you press the start button a 2nd time through a switch on the score motor at c2. I'd recheck all of the swiches at c2 to make sure the points are clean and making contact. Also check the wires to those switches..
Um, isn't there supposed to be an A-1118 relay in the PB relay? Either I'm mistaken, because the label in the machine would say (No Coil) if a relay was not supposed to be there, or someone stole my relay!! However, I don't see any clipped wires anywhere....yet, these switches have to be activated upon in some fashion to be useful they are double-sided!!
IMG_20210601_182702 (resized).jpg
IMG_20210601_183127 (resized).jpg
What is funny, to me, is that I bought a parts reset bank years ago because someone had harvested parts off my Big Shot.
Pm me if you want to proceed with the missing parts..coil and armature/spring. Ill send free..you cover postage.
I understand it's not uncommon for somebody to rob Peter to pay Paul with these older machines.... Yes there would have to be a single bar at the front of the armature to open those switches. Perhaps someone has a nice close-up picture of what that should look like....
Yes, they look like they're closed in their natural state. Then the bar activates and drops down and opens both of them. Upon closer inspection, I see a little bit of solder where the ground wire trace goes all the way across the back of the main bank, where the relay used to be.
NOTE: Now I'm wondering if the single black wire that was just hanging there the other night that I soldered to where I thought it should go (to the double black wire on the ZB relay) really belongs to that missing PB relay (see pic). The other end of this black wire, which is only about 2 inches long, partners with a double purple/white wire in the center area of ZB. (See video link)
IMG_20210601_191922 (resized).jpg
I believe the single wire should be unsoldered from the double blacks. It’s the power for the 2nd player relay. If you leave it this way the fuse will blow when 2nd player is called to pull the relay in.
Schematic showing PB circuit...
IMG_20210601_220848 (resized).jpg
The Black wire is now de-soldered and waiting, disconnected.
On a side note.... I'd like to replace the power cord on this machine with one that's grounded. I imagine the two main wires would be connected where the old wires are but where would the ground wire get connected to, to be effective? Or, is this a non-issue as the original cord is in pretty good shape....
Also, Where did these labels fall from specifically, any ideas? (See Pic)
IMG_20210602_172756 (resized).jpgQuoted from Flip-it-good:I'd like to replace the power cord on this machine with one that's grounded
This subject and more in this indispensable guide:
Great resource thank you. Just put another order in with Steve Young at the PB Resource.
Can anyone confirm that the double black wire that is connected to relay ZB in this picture actually belongs there? Once I install the relay at PB I want to make sure the wiring is correct I was curious that maybe one of those double blacks that is connected to ZB actually goes to PB. But from what I can see once the PB relay is installed the black Trace wire that you see just hanging there goes to one end and the ground trace in the back goes to the other end like all the other relays.
A gigantic thank you to pinsider bonzo71 for sending me the missing PB relay!
Just discovered the outermost switch on the stack at 2C on the score motor has a wire missing. There's a bit of wire still soldered on it but there's no wire and I'm pretty sure that goes to somewhere. That's the switch I repaired earlier this week with a piece of plastic spacer. I'm looking at the schematic but again I'm not very good, can anyone say what wire is supposed to go there? It has a double brown wire attached to one side of this switch but missing the other side!
IMG_20210603_204122 (resized).jpg
Card is missing. I could answer so many questions with that. Where would it be on the schematic? I'm looking for motor 2C switches. I see 2C located all over the schematic in various places. This switch has a double Brown on one side and missing a wire on the other. I can't find anywhere on the schematic where there's a double Brown attached to one side of a switch at 2C....
Maybe one of the other Big Shot owners will post the 2C part of that card. If not, here are the other 61 Big Shot owners
https://pinside.com/pinball/machine/big-shot/owners
Hopefully someone with a chart will share so that we might get an idea of why this was hacked. Based on this photo though, I agree the blue wire should go to 2c.
I saw that picture, yes, blue wire. I should have traced the blue wire beyond the fuse under the playfield. Right now that outer switch is useless. Blue connects with double brown on that switch, well, at least it used to before the hack.
I am trying to follow along from my Hot Shot and its schematic, although there are some small differences in circuitry since HS is a 4-player game. Refer to row 21 on the schematic between E and I.
Here is my guess at what a previous owner was trying to do:
Since there was a plastic spacer missing on that Motor 2C switch, that switch was probably never functioning properly when the score motor rotated and thus, was not energizing the #1-7 target bank reset solenoid (shown at 21-H/I on the schematic) reliably. Perhaps the owner could not find a replacement spacer, or maybe did not even realize it was missing? It would seem to me that he was trying to bypass the malfunctioning motor switch 2C by rerouting the blue wire shown on the right side of 2C to the right side of Motor switch 3B (orange wire) to instead trigger BOTH target bank reset solenoids off of the functional switch at Motor 3B (that was intended to only energize the #9-15 target bank reset solenoid).
Since you have repaired/replaced the missing spacer, I would put the blue wire back where it belongs.
Lee
My Hot Shot is missing that card also.
If you have the owner's manual, that information should be duplicated in Table form on page 6 or 7, or so.
Maybe someone on Pinside will volunteer to send you a scan or copy of their card for Big Shot?
Lee
Runbikeskilee is right, the Big Shot manual has similar information. Here's the 2C section
pasted_image (resized).pngI think Runbikeskilee wins the "why" the change was made prize.
fwiw, on your game the only wires with comfy plastic jackets are in the 120V circuits (not counting any short jumper wires).
since your brown wire is plastic coated, the switch must connect it to another plastic coated wire. That cuts your search area way down if you need to hunt for the switch on the schem.
wrt your double black wire in post #79, yes it's supposed to be there. The black wire is connected to one side of most of the 25V coils.
for manufacturing convenience, they string a bare wire between multiple coils and attach the black wire somewhere along the length. For maintenance inconvenience, they often run the bare wire thru the coil lug holes so you have to cut either the wire or the lug to get the old coil out. I usually try and cut the lug, then don't put the wire thru the hole on the replacement coil - bend/twist the lug so it's flat against the bare wire and solder it.
there's two segments of black wire attached because it daisy chains to more places that aren't reachable using the bare wire.
Quoted from Flip-it-good:This picture is just for reference have no idea what game it goes to...
The motor chart in your pic is from the single-player wedgehead COVER GIRL, manufactured in July 1962 (as always, thanks to IPDB for the info). I know this because the model number of the game (190) is printed at the bottom of the card.
As has already been pointed out, Gottlieb moved the motor switch info into the manual as a simple listing, and stopped creating a separate motor chart for the cabinet side wall prior to the mid 1970s. So unfortunately, you will never find a cool factory chart like this for your game.
- TimMe
Quoted from Flip-it-good:Would love to find this motor switch position chart for a Big Shot... This picture is just for reference have no idea what game it goes to.
Inkochnito has made some of these for various machines. Since they are in Word (or pdf) format you can edit them and make one for any machine if you have the info from the manual. You can make them look as authentic as you like.
pasted_image (resized).pngVery cool! Thanks for the idea, would like to try to keep the machine as original as possible and putting that chart in the cabinet would be the finishing touch, thank you!
Alrighty Then! The replacement relay coil is installed (Thank You bonzo71!) and I have included a picture here. I'm assuming the thin black jumper wire that comes from ZB relay wire goes on the right lug looking down using the picture.... and the left lug get soldered to the ground Trace that runs the length of the reset bank. Any confirmation here would be appreciated...
IMG_20210606_112347 (resized).jpgQuoted from Flip-it-good:Very cool! Thanks for the idea, would like to try to keep the machine as original as possible and putting that chart in the cabinet would be the finishing touch, thank you!
No problem. It wouldn't be so much original with your machine, but it would be cool. Gottlieb should have kept putting these in their machines - they provide a lot more valuable info than some of the other info cards they have stapled in the cabinet.
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