(Topic ID: 239338)
North Adelaide
Springfield, MA
Have you checked the contacts on the sw. under the hole and at the relay? Look like score motor sw. 4C could be involved as well.
Ok at the start of the game i got the ball kicking out but after the first ball the ball return is not working at all just sits in the hole Is the switch at 4c supposed to be open or closed.. When i manually depress the O relay the outhole kicker will fire.
Raff
If the Add Bonus Unit relay (C) doesn't activate when the ball goes in the outhole, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires,
especially the 2 indicated areas.
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Pinball (resized).pngFound the problem was at the bonus unit the pivots on the wheel were not making contact everything was loose the two black hex screws were nearly falling off just tightened all the screws and the return ball and bonus came back to life thanks howard your two main areas to look at were spot on. The only problem still is the ball return is weak it only just kicks the ball out i have cleaned the switch at 4c and the ball return switch and put a new sleeve in the coil.where now
Raff
The ball return kicker on my Hot Shot is a little weak also, but it gets the ball to the shooter lane 98% of the time. IMO, that mechanism was not one of Gottlieb's better designs; If not adjusted perfectly it can tend to launch the ball into the air to the point where it often hits the underside of the apron and then loses momentum and rolls back to the outhole.
First, make sure the ball return solenoid is receiving the strongest pulse possible. Sounds like you've already looked at the outhole switch and motor switch 4C. There is one more NC switch in that circuit that energizes the ball return solenoid; it is located on the XB relay. There are 5 NC switches on the XB, so look for the one with a YEL+RED wire to one blade tab (or clean all the switches). Make sure all 3 switches in the ball return solenoid circuit are clean and make solid contact when closed.
Also, is the bakelite piece on the ball return plunger in good condition, or does it feel sloppy with a lot of play? That piece can disipate energy also.
Lee
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:If not adjusted perfectly it can tend to launch the ball into the air to the point where it often hits the underside of the apron</blockquote
It is hitting the underside of the apron when it launchs.Also, is the bakelite piece on the ball return plunger in good condition, or does it feel sloppy with a lot of play
There is alot of play in the bakelite.
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:XB relay
The xb is the last ball relay Will clean the switches on the xb relay i did not about the xb thanks.
Raff
<>> If not adjusted perfectly it can tend to launch the ball into the air to the point where it often hits the underside of the apron and then loses momentum and rolls back to the out hole>>>
Sometimes it is that the two outhole ends of the kicker arm have been peened and flattened out from many years of use. Had some that were beat all to hell and kicked terribly. They can be knocked back into shape somewhat with a hammer.
Quoted from frenchmarky:Sometimes it is that the two outhole ends of the kicker arm have been peened and flattened out from many years of use. Had some that were beat all to hell and kicked terribly. They can be knocked back into shape somewhat with a hammer.
I will use the hammer on it.
Raff
Not sure if that nut and screw are original. Maybe there for adjustment of the closing of that switch that the kicker presses? Or to raise the kicker up a little for some reason? This looks strange, I’m used to seeing NO switch there. Can anybody explain what that switch is for?
Aarau
Raff, I opened up my Hot Shot and there was no mechanism like that. Yours was definitely not put there at the factory. Looks like someone hacked the machine in trying to change the rest position of the ball kicker arm.
If it was my machine, I would probably remove the hack and try to figure out what was causing the malfunction in the first place. That extra screw/nut is also acting to reduce the stroke of the plunger.
Edmonton, AB
When you say the kicker is"weak", does the kicker fire but the ball doesn't make it to the shooter lane? Does it often kick several times before it goes to the shooter? If so, this can be caused by the outhole being worn oblong, as yours appears to be. If that's the problem, it a simple fix.
When the ball is not making it to the shooter lane successfully, I typically examine the following steps.
1) Is the electrical pulse to the solenoid weak? This involves the 3 switches (on this game anyway) that must be closed to energize the solenoid; they all must be clean and making solid contact when closed.
2) Is the proper solenoid coil installed?
3) Is there an issue with the kicker mechanism that is dissipating some of the mechanical energy from the solenoid? This can include a) excess wear in the holes of the bakelite piece, b) too strong a return spring on the plunger, c) the bracket that holds the solenoid being bent or misaligned, or d) the kicker arms are not sending the ball in a linear motion directly up the ramp.
4) Is the ball not sitting properly in the outhole, due to excessive wear?
5) Is the ramp low friction (clean and waxed) and the machine laterally level?
You have already worked on 1), but you might put the check them one more time and add just a tiny bit of tension to the switch blades to make sure the contact faces are making solid contact when closed.
2) the wrapper on your solenoid is missing, but it should be an A-1496 with a resistance of approx. 3 ohms. Can you check resistance across the terminals with a multi-meter?
3a) replace the bakelite piece if the holes show excessive wear
3b) the return spring on your machine's plunger does not look original. Could it be providing too much resistance to the plunger pulling in?
3d) is the most difficult item. Is the ball not being directed straight up the ramp or is it possibly going airborne and hitting the underside of the apron and thus losing momentum? I find that adjusting those kicker arms to be a trial and error process and I'm always afraid that the metal might be brittle.
4) inquire of Enzo for ideas on his simple fix
Good luck!
If the kicker fires numerous times before the ball get to the shooter lane, a worn outhole is often the problem. What happens is the ball sits too close to the ball trough, and when ejected, it often hits the underside of the apron or edge of the worn outhole, and falls back into the outhole. I have used the following method numerous times to fix this problem.
You need to hold the ball closer to the far end of the outhole (away from shooter lane) by installing a guide. To do this I use an old heavy switch blade/leaf, like the ones used on your score motor. First take off the apron so you can get to the ball trough. The end of the switch leaf is first cut to length as required before installation, and bent down at 45-60 degrees, so that it holds the ball towards the back (away from the ball trough) side of the outhole. As per the rough drawing below, you install the leaf under the ball trough by using the screw closest to the outhole and putting the trough screw thru the hole in the end of the switch leaf.
This may take a few times to get the switch length right so the hole in the switch leaf lines up with the trough screw, and the bent end is the right configuration. You want the ball to be guided by the bent leaf to sit nicely on the kickers "cradle".
As a rough starting measurement, the switch leaf bent end should be about 1/8 to 3/16 inches from the edge of the worn outhole, and reach down to the about center of the ball. Make sure this switch leaf guide does not interfere with the kicker assembly or outhole switch.
Enzo
Gottlieb outhole (resized).jpgDid you go ahead and remove that hack (nut & bolt) that was limiting the stroke of the kicker arm?
Just curious.
2 months later
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:When the ball is not making it to the shooter lane successfully, I typically examine the following steps.
1) Is the electrical pulse to the solenoid weak? This involves the 3 switches (on this game anyway) that must be closed to energize the solenoid; they all must be clean and making solid contact when closed.
2) Is the proper solenoid coil installed?
3) Is there an issue with the kicker mechanism that is dissipating some of the mechanical energy from the solenoid? This can include a) excess wear in the holes of the bakelite piece, b) too strong a return spring on the plunger, c) the bracket that holds the solenoid being bent or misaligned, or d) the kicker arms are not sending the ball in a linear motion directly up the ramp.
4) Is the ball not sitting properly in the outhole, due to excessive wear?
5) Is the ramp low friction (clean and waxed) and the machine laterally level?
You have already worked on 1), but you might put the check them one more time and add just a tiny bit of tension to the switch blades to make sure the contact faces are making solid contact when closed.
2) the wrapper on your solenoid is missing, but it should be an A-1496 with a resistance of approx. 3 ohms. Can you check resistance across the terminals with a multi-meter?
3a) replace the bakelite piece if the holes show excessive wear
3b) the return spring on your machine's plunger does not look original. Could it be providing too much resistance to the plunger pulling in?
3d) is the most difficult item. Is the ball not being directed straight up the ramp or is it possibly going airborne and hitting the underside of the apron and thus losing momentum? I find that adjusting those kicker arms to be a trial and error process and I'm always afraid that the metal might be brittle.
4) inquire of Enzo for ideas on his simple fix
Good luck!
I am a recent owner of a Gottlieb Close Encounters of the Third Kind (SS); this is my first pin. About every 9th or 10th time the ball doesn't reach the shooter lane when the kicker fires. When this happens it is successful on the third attempt. I removed the apron and watched the kicker launch the ball. It appears that the kicker strength varies from time to time, sometimes being too weak for the ball to clear the rise in the ramp. The ramp is clean and the outhole is lined with metal and does not appear enlarged. Suggestions? Thanks.
1 year later
I wanted to add to this....
My KING KOOL has a weak kicker as well, and working on it has varied performance. Finally I was able to get a BLADE from a flipper switch and do the repair described so often on Pinside.
Results: minimal.
What I DID notice it helped with was ELEVATING the ball tray bringing the ball to the plunger. That is probably what it is doing for most people. Someone had already put a washer under there, and the ball would sometimes be stuck on the switch in the ball tray. With the switch's blade it elevated it enough so the ball wasn't stuck on the wire switch anymore and it would either return to the kicker or go to the plunger. THUMBS UP for that.
However, I did get into serious observation of the kicker and found it was INCONSISTENT. Sometimes it was strong, sometimes weak. The power was variable. So it is most likely the switches being gunned up.
Compound problems did appear as I took notice, though: the coil shifts on its bracket and doesn't sit flush. The coil leads had arced to the kicker arm in the past, maybe recently. The mechanism was slightly gunked up with old grease. The coil plunger is slightly eroded/tarnished and might catch on the coil sleeve...
Ultimately, there are half a dozen problems there. It's probably the 50-yo coil as well, but most likely in good-enough shape. Someone was in there before and did some funny business to help the mechanism, but nothing worked perfectly.
@Raff, it's better if you bend the end of the switch blade that protrudes into the kickout hole, so the ball doesn't get scratched or pitted by the raw edge of the blade. Check out the photos in one of my recent postings to see what I mean:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-72-kicker-not-kicking-enough#post-6075058
- TimMe
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