(Topic ID: 187308)

Gottlieb AS-relay


By Yoski

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 36 posts
  • 17 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Pauz21
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

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#1 3 years ago

Hi,
I am having trouble with an old AS-relay out of a Gottlieb Volley. I can't get the wiper to turn as it is designed to. I got a rebuild kit from The Pinball Resource but it didn't help. I took everything apart, cleaned it, added a bit of oil to lubricate the shaft that holds the gear and the gear itself, adjusted the bracket in inside into various positions, I made sure that the shaft doesn't get wedge against the board and I installed a new spring. The only way I can get it to operate properly (by hand) it with a stronger (red) spring and by not tightening the screws shown in the picture all the way. With the original spring and tightening the 2 screws I am not even getting close to it moving as designed. Once the arm presses down on the wiper even the stronger red spring has a hard time moving the internal gear forward.
I am having a similar problem with the ball count unit that also has a wiper and relies on a spring moving a gear forward.
Any idea what the secret sauce is that makes this thing operate properly?

#2 3 years ago
Quoted from Yoski:

Hi,
I am having trouble with an old AS-relay out of a Gottlieb Volley. I can't get the wiper to turn as it is designed to. I got a rebuild kit from The Pinball Resource but it didn't help. I took everything apart, cleaned it, added a bit of oil to lubricate the shaft that holds the gear and the gear itself, adjusted the bracket in inside into various positions, I made sure that the shaft doesn't get wedge against the board and I installed a new spring. The only way I can get it to operate properly (by hand) it with a stronger (red) spring and by not tightening the screws shown in the picture all the way. With the original spring and tightening the 2 screws I am not even getting close to it moving as designed. Once the arm presses down on the wiper even the stronger red spring has a hard time moving the internal gear forward.
I am having a similar problem with the ball count unit that also has a wiper and relies on a spring moving a gear forward.
Any idea what the secret sauce is that makes this thing operate properly?

There are a variety of ways resistance can get introduced to the operation of these little devils. I would advise grabbing an AS relay from one of your other games (like Centigrade 37) and do a side-by-side inspection. Having a working example as a reference might shine a light on why Volley's AS relay is binding.

#3 3 years ago

Did you clean the shafts? Make sure the shaft spins freely on each side before putting the assembly back together. I also had a problem where the wiper arm was applying too much tension - I had to fiddle until I found a sweet spot where the wiper made contact with all the points without applying too much pressure. Another thing I found was to tighten the screw evenly - somehow I was introducing a bind when I tightened them one at a time. I also found that leaving the screws not quite as tight as I would like also helped. I was nervous about it, but so far, no problems....

#4 3 years ago

make sure the cam lock blade ( the blade stops the cam from reversing) is properly adjusted. if not the lifting lever doesn't sit square on a tooth of the cam and it doesn't work correctly.

#5 3 years ago

Also, ensure there isn't too much tension on the cam operated contacts. You can prove this by gently lifting the contacts manually off the cam and then seeing if the wiper will rotate.

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#6 3 years ago
Quoted from Billc479:

... Another thing I found was to tighten the screw evenly - somehow I was introducing a bind when I tightened them one at a time. I also found that leaving the screws not quite as tight as I would like also helped. I was nervous about it, but so far, no problems....

Thanks, that certainly helped. I also had to use the tighter red spring instead of the standard spring. The one in my C37 works perfect and I am still not sure what exactly the difference is. The arms might be putting too much tension on the wiper which makes it very difficult for the spring to pull the whole mechanism back into position.

#7 3 years ago

Might try lubing the cam with teflon grease. A very very light coat.

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from newmantjn:

Might try lubing the cam with teflon grease. A very very light coat.

I just ordered some of that stuff, thanks.

11 months later
#9 2 years ago

What does this relay do? A guy in town asked me to look at his and in about an hour I've got it working good. Couple questions/bugs:

Match isn't rotating. Always on 70. Is that tied to this relay?

In 3 ball does 1 of the 3 lanes at the top start already triggered? Seems to on this game. So on reset you already have 1 of the 3 colours at 5000 points.

And are the sling shots really worth 1000 points each?

Occasionally 5000 points get scored the second the ball goes in the shooter lane for ball one. Tied to question 2?

Thoughts

#10 2 years ago

Concentrate on one problem at a time. I'll need to see a high quality scan of the schematic from e.g. Staples ($2) or Kinkos ($6)

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from Pauz21:

What does this relay do? A guy in town asked me to look at his and in about an hour I've got it working good. Couple questions/bugs:
Match isn't rotating. Always on 70. Is that tied to this relay?
In 3 ball does 1 of the 3 lanes at the top start already triggered? Seems to on this game. So on reset you already have 1 of the 3 colours at 5000 points.
And are the sling shots really worth 1000 points each?
Occasionally 5000 points get scored the second the ball goes in the shooter lane for ball one. Tied to question 2?
Thoughts

The AS does control Match, so if Match isn't moving, the AS isn't spinning most likely.

#12 2 years ago

Another of Gottlieb's better ideas...

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

Another of Gottlieb's better ideas...

It's better than a Williams or Bally match relay.

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from goldenboy232:

The AS does control Match, so if Match isn't moving, the AS isn't spinning most likely.

Any tips or would a simple good cleaning likely fit the bill?

#15 2 years ago

And that's the one in the left of the head next to the credit stepper unit correct?

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from Pauz21:

Any tips or would a simple good cleaning likely fit the bill?

Diagnose the root cause with Alligator clip jumper wires before tearing into a rebuild.

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from Pauz21:

And that's the one in the left of the head next to the credit stepper unit correct?

For the AS unit, first go to pinrepair.com and on the homepage click on the EM repair guide link. Scroll down and click on the link about stepper units. Then scroll down (it’s quitea ways down that page) and you’ll see a whole section on the AS relay. Then happy to have you IM questions and I can do my best to answer them.

#18 2 years ago

If the arms that hold the ratchet shaft are misaligned or binding the shaft in any way, the relay will stick. You can twist the shaft carefully with a flat blade screwdriver in the proper direction. Try removing the load that the cam wheel has by lifting the contacts away, as suggested earlier. The relay has to be adjusted precisely, but it will hold the adjustment for years. Another source of drag wiper arm(s). Ensure that the pcb is smooth. I put a tiny amount of light grease on it.

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

If the arms that hold the ratchet shaft are misaligned or binding the shaft in any way, the relay will stick. You can twist the shaft carefully with a flat blade screwdriver in the proper direction. Try removing the load that the cam wheel has by lifting the contacts away, as suggested earlier. The relay has to be adjusted precisely, but it will hold the adjustment for years. Another source of drag wiper arm(s). Ensure that the pcb is smooth. I put a tiny amount of light grease on it.

I'm confident I can figure it out. Just wanna ensure I'm looking at the right unit. Is it that one in the upper left side to the right of the credit stepper? Was one of the only things i couldn't quickly put a finger on its purpose in the first few minutes of looking at it. Haven't seen the game since though.

#20 2 years ago

It's a mini stepper. You can unplug and remove it from the machine.

#21 2 years ago

This may not be the same unit, but I'm sure there are relevant tips.

AS relay adj. (resized).jpg

#22 2 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

This may not be the same unit, but I'm sure there are relevant tips.

Yeah that looks like it. I figured as it was the only thing I couldn't identify. I'll get er tuned up.

#23 2 years ago

Make sure to clean the area noted below. In every AS relay I have rebuilt, this area is always a source of friction due to old grease/dirt. Clean all the teeth of the cog and switch that rides on it with alcohol. Adjust tension as necessary.

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#24 2 years ago

These things should really be called ASS Relays am I right?

They are torture but clean and adjust EVERYTHING. Sometimes I'll increase tension on the return spring by cutting it a little shorter too.

#25 2 years ago

Shortening the spring is not needed in a properly adjusted and cleaned relay. A lot of people do this, and it is never needed. It worked from the factory and will work again.

#26 2 years ago
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

Shortening the spring is not needed in a properly adjusted and cleaned relay. A lot of people do this, and it is never needed. It worked from the factory and will work again.

Far from me to argue with D Gottlieb himself, but sometimes, you gotta do whatever it takes.

#27 2 years ago
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

Shortening the spring is not needed in a properly adjusted and cleaned relay. A lot of people do this, and it is never needed. It worked from the factory and will work again.

I'm with d-gottlieb on this one. Shortening the spring isn't needed if you properly clean and adjust the relay.

#28 2 years ago

Hi Pauz21, D-Gottlieb, currieddog, HowardR +
"shortening a retaining spring" (or tightening an retaining spring wound around the axis on a stepper) or other treatment: Seldom - but once in a while a spring needs some work. I remember a weird situation on "Gottlieb Hot Shot" --- Test-Lights mounted, videos made - looooong topic - and in the end: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-many-problems-with-my-gottlieb-hot-shot/page/2#post-4122570 --- see the picture "spring" --- and the picture in post-68 (spring) --- seldom, rare: Sometimes we have to work on a spring. Greetings Rolf

#29 2 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Pauz21, D-Gottlieb, currieddog, HowardR +
"shortening a retaining spring" (or tightening an retaining spring wound around the axis on a stepper) or other treatment: Seldom - but once in a while a spring needs some work. I remember a weird situation on "Gottlieb Hot Shot" --- Test-Lights mounted, videos made - looooong topic - and in the end: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-many-problems-with-my-gottlieb-hot-shot/page/2#post-4122570 --- see the picture "spring" --- and the picture in post-68 (spring) --- seldom, rare: Sometimes we have to work on a spring. Greetings Rolf

Quoted from HowardR:

I'm with d-gottlieb on this one. Shortening the spring isn't needed if you properly clean and adjust the relay.

If it were 1971, I'd agree with you.

The fact is the AX relays and ALL of their components are 40-60 years old now. That's really, really old for stuff that was probably engineered for 5 years of service.

I have completely disassembled AX units, adjusted, and cleaned them, and still had to get a little weird with the return spring to make it operate correct. Stuff wears out, gets harder to work with. Including return springs.

I'll agree, it's the last thing you should do. But sometimes that AX just needs a gentle little push to regain its customary snap.

#30 2 years ago

Appreciate the help everyone. I'm sure I can work my way thru it but I've ordered some parts for him yesterday. Probably won't head back till the new parts come in.

#31 2 years ago

I hate them so much I found a NOS AS-Relay for the day they really drive me nuts!

This is what they looked like from factory.

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#32 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

... the AX relays ...

You mean the "AS" relay, right? In any case, Pinball Resource has the A8737 springs for $0.65, and the AS relay rebuild kit for $5.
http://www.pbresource.com/relay-GTB.html

#33 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

You mean the "AS" relay, right? In any case, Pinball Resource has the A8737 springs for $0.65, and the AS relay rebuild kit for $5.
http://www.pbresource.com/relay-GTB.html

Well, I also hate AX relays with a passion, but yes, AS in this case.

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

... the AX relays ...

Quoted from HowardR:

You mean the "AS" relay, right? In any case, Pinball Resource has the A8737 springs for $0.65, and the AS relay rebuild kit for $5.
http://www.pbresource.com/relay-GTB.html

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Well, I also hate AX relays with a passion, but yes, AS in this case.

You mean the Interlock relays, right? Those are used in more than just the "AX" position. (This schematic fragment from 1977 Gottlieb Solar City)

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#35 2 years ago

Gottlieb relays are fairly precise and require little maintenance after proper adjustment. However, they are demanding in that their adjustment is precise as well.

3 weeks later
#36 2 years ago

Tha is for the tips guys. Got that guys relay tuned up and working 100 percent.

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